Gold brass vs rose brass?

[Trhtrbn]

Is there a difference in gold brass versus rose brass Yamaha trombone bells, or are they basically the same?

[BGuttman]

Mostly there is a difference in terminology. Both terms are used to describe the same metal by different manufacturers. FWIW I have never seen Yamaha use the term Rose Brass, only Gold Brass.

Theoretically Gold Brass should be 80% copper and Rose Brass should be 85% copper. Red Brass should be 90% copper (as used in the older Conn 88H bell).

[Burgerbob]

Yamaha rose and gold brass is all 85/15 rose brass, no "real" 80/20 gold brass.

[Trhtrbn]

The reason I ask is because I have a Yamaha YSL-3530R and I have seen that new models of Yamaha have a G in their model numbers, I.E. YSL-446G.

[Finetales]

Some models have had both R and G designations, e.g. the YSL-356G and YSL-356R. As far as I've read, the R-designated models and certain other models (YSL-643, YSL-651, etc.) used RED brass (90/10) bells. The G models use Yamaha """gold brass""" (85/15 rose brass). The YSL-8425 looks to have had both options (G and R) at the same time in the '80s.

[Burgerbob]

Yup, Yamaha also used actual red brass in the old days.

[CalgaryTbone]

I've also seen some manufacturers use Rose to mean Red, while others use it to describe Gold brass.

I generally prefer the terminology Red, Gold and Yellow since I know which metal that we're talking about that way. Even then, some manufacturers have produced horns from an alloy with a different percentage of copper than what normally falls into the general description of each of these. I remember someone telling me of an instrument company who was trying to make a modern copy of the old York tubas that took some scrapings of a bit of material from an old tuba and analyzed the metal. They discovered that it was Yellow brass with a slightly higher copper content - between Yellow and Gold as we usually describe them. Maybe just a quirk of that company or their brass supplier, or different standards used back then. Maybe even a batch where their measurements were off? Interesting to think if that is part of the great sound we often associate with classic older instruments.

Jim Scott

[Burgerbob]

I generally prefer the terminology Red, Gold and Yellow since I know which metal that we're talking about that way.

Jim Scott

Well, that still doesn't narrow it down. Red brass (like on Conns) is 90/10. Rose brass, or what many makers call gold brass is 85/15. Bach and Weril gold brass ("real" gold brass) is 80/20. The problem is many makers using the term gold brass but meaning different alloys.

[BGuttman]

Red brass is sometimes called Bronze incorrectly. I think it was Olds or Reynolds who used the term Bronzolyte for red brass. Real bronze is an alloy of copper and tin (and is often used for church bells).

[ithinknot]

90/10 "red" is usually known as "commercial bronze" by metal suppliers, hence that recurring confusion (Kanstul, Lawler, etc) ... if you really care, refer to the numbers, otherwise don't worry about it

[Finetales]

Then there is the old Conn P-27 alloy used on outer handslides, which IIRC is pretty close (but not quite) to actual 80/20 gold brass.

[tbonesullivan]

I'm pretty sure that Yamaha doesn't use the term "rose" for any of their instruments at present. I'm not sure if they did in the past, but G at the end of a model number usually means 85/15 Brass (gold) and R means 90/10 Brass (red). My YBL-612R II is DEFINITELY red brass. Yamaha may use a bit of tint in their lacquer to give some instruments more "pop", which I definitely saw when I got a small chip on the rim of my horn. I found the chip and it was just slightly yellow.

[ithinknot]

Then there is the old Conn P-27 alloy used on outer handslides, which IIRC is pretty close (but not quite) to actual 80/20 gold brass.

Not quite; from the archives:

I know we analysed a Conn outer slide leg to see what their P-27 alloy actually was and from memory found it was 85/15 gilding metal with the addition of 2% tin which would have the effect of making it much stronger. As far as I can recall the main commercial application for this alloy that was listed was for making fountain pen nibs.

Even more from the archives:

We had a really good thread about this on the old TTF where I supplied an MSDS with alloy numbers and Mill names for alloys marketted by various different names by the musical instrument manufactueres. Here is a synopsis:

C110 pure copper. Reynold contempora bass tb bells, conn coprion (electroformed)

C210. Cu95% ZN 5% Commercially called gilding metal, this is used on some German trombone bells, possibly Voigt altos

C510 CU94.8%, SN 5%, P.02% A phosphor tin bronze used in 1920s and 1930s "red" conns. More copper colored that the surrounding sheet metal made of C220, see below. Only used in drawn tubing, such as slide tubes and F attachment wraps.

C220. CU90%, ZN10% commonly referred to as red brass, but industrially as commercial bronze even though its a true brass. All older Conns used this alloy on 88H, 62H, some Fuchs 70Hs, some non fuchs 70Hs (like my old horn), Olds Recordings, Olds GR basses, and some pre elkhart Bachs have this alloy (Mostly 50s and 45s)

C230 CU85%, ZN15% labeled as rose brass by Edwards, this alloy is called "red brass" by mills and is available in both seamless drawn and sheet metal. The name confusion comes as Germans often call this Goldmessing, versus the next alloy which Bach calls gold brass C240. Used in Edwards bells, Shires "gold brass" bells and tuning slides, Kanstul "red brass bells", and modern King rose bells.

C240. CU80%, ZN20% Gold brass sometimes commercially called "low" brass. This alloy is incredibly rare these days and is used by Bach on their bells. Be aware the Artisan tuning slide is almost certainly C230, I own one, its not the same color as my Bach gold brass bells. Weril also uses C240 alloy in its bells. Bach used to draw slide tubes in this metal, but it hasnt been confirmed by any analysis of the alloy.

C260. CU70%, ZN30% common yellow brass

C360. Common leaded yellow brass used in mouthpieces and valve casings.

I speculated that Conn trumpet brass may be made of C250 CU75% ZN25%, but this has never been confirmed.

Matt, many 1930s and 40s "Yellow" 70Hs had gold brass bells and J bends with the remainder made of C260 yellow brass. Its the only circumstance of Conns with gold brass I have seen. Mike Szabos 70H fuchs was a special order as most were red brass at that point, but the 1930s small 70Hs up until about 1950 tended to have gold brass bells and J bends. Gabe Rice has one, and I have seen a few myself. Its really subtle with old darkened lacquer.

Anyways,

Hope that helps people. When ordering metal alloy numbers are your friend.

Benn

[Finetales]

Now there are the juicy technical details I needed!

All that's left is to figure out what the Stomvi "BellFlex" alloy is that they use on their bells (and apparently won't give any details as to what it is).

I'm pretty sure that Yamaha doesn't use the term "rose" for any of their instruments at present. I'm not sure if they did in the past, but G at the end of a model number usually means 85/15 Brass (gold) and R means 90/10 Brass (red). My YBL-612R II is DEFINITELY red brass. Yamaha may use a bit of tint in their lacquer to give some instruments more "pop", which I definitely saw when I got a small chip on the rim of my horn. I found the chip and it was just slightly yellow.

I feel like Yamaha would call their red bells "rose brass" before giving up on calling their rose bells "gold brass".

[CalgaryTbone]

Then there is the old Conn P-27 alloy used on outer handslides, which IIRC is pretty close (but not quite) to actual 80/20 gold brass.

Not quite; from the archives:

I know we analysed a Conn outer slide leg to see what their P-27 alloy actually was and from memory found it was 85/15 gilding metal with the addition of 2% tin which would have the effect of making it much stronger. As far as I can recall the main commercial application for this alloy that was listed was for making fountain pen nibs.

Even more from the archives:

We had a really good thread about this on the old TTF where I supplied an MSDS with alloy numbers and Mill names for alloys marketted by various different names by the musical instrument manufactueres. Here is a synopsis:

C110 pure copper. Reynold contempora bass tb bells, conn coprion (electroformed)

C210. Cu95% ZN 5% Commercially called gilding metal, this is used on some German trombone bells, possibly Voigt altos

C510 CU94.8%, SN 5%, P.02% A phosphor tin bronze used in 1920s and 1930s "red" conns. More copper colored that the surrounding sheet metal made of C220, see below. Only used in drawn tubing, such as slide tubes and F attachment wraps.

C220. CU90%, ZN10% commonly referred to as red brass, but industrially as commercial bronze even though its a true brass. All older Conns used this alloy on 88H, 62H, some Fuchs 70Hs, some non fuchs 70Hs (like my old horn), Olds Recordings, Olds GR basses, and some pre elkhart Bachs have this alloy (Mostly 50s and 45s)

C230 CU85%, ZN15% labeled as rose brass by Edwards, this alloy is called "red brass" by mills and is available in both seamless drawn and sheet metal. The name confusion comes as Germans often call this Goldmessing, versus the next alloy which Bach calls gold brass C240. Used in Edwards bells, Shires "gold brass" bells and tuning slides, Kanstul "red brass bells", and modern King rose bells.

C240. CU80%, ZN20% Gold brass sometimes commercially called "low" brass. This alloy is incredibly rare these days and is used by Bach on their bells. Be aware the Artisan tuning slide is almost certainly C230, I own one, its not the same color as my Bach gold brass bells. Weril also uses C240 alloy in its bells. Bach used to draw slide tubes in this metal, but it hasnt been confirmed by any analysis of the alloy.

C260. CU70%, ZN30% common yellow brass

C360. Common leaded yellow brass used in mouthpieces and valve casings.

I speculated that Conn trumpet brass may be made of C250 CU75% ZN25%, but this has never been confirmed.

Matt, many 1930s and 40s "Yellow" 70Hs had gold brass bells and J bends with the remainder made of C260 yellow brass. Its the only circumstance of Conns with gold brass I have seen. Mike Szabos 70H fuchs was a special order as most were red brass at that point, but the 1930s small 70Hs up until about 1950 tended to have gold brass bells and J bends. Gabe Rice has one, and I have seen a few myself. Its really subtle with old darkened lacquer.

Anyways,

Hope that helps people. When ordering metal alloy numbers are your friend.

Benn

Wow - all of this is confusing, but that list adds some clarity!