King 3b vs Bach 36

[wesleyrubim]

Hey, guys,

I'm a jazz trombonist, and I have an opportunity to buy a Bach 36 or a king 3b, I have little time to test both and I couldn't decide which would be better.
I wanted to hear your experiences with these two trombones, and for what circumstances do you use each trombone?

Thanks everyone

[Burgerbob]

If you're playing in a big band, 3B.

[OompaLoompia]

3B for sure. Even better, a 3BF for maximum versatility. Bach 36 I’ve always felt was a better fit for chamber ensembles/brass band. But if you’re set on wanting a mediun bore, the 3B+ is also a great choice.

[wesleyrubim]

If you're playing in a big band, 3B.

Actually I don’t play so often with big band. My main horn is a Thein Maxim, love playin this horn in duo, trio situation, but I suffer a bit when I have louder gigs, that’s why I’m looking for a secondary trombone

[Burgerbob]

I'd still suggest 3B.

[tbonesullivan]

I would also go with a 3B or a 3B F if you want something "bigger". At .508" / 12.9mm in bore and a 8 inch / 216mm bell it is definitely a step or two larger than the Thein maxim in some respects. The bell design also has a relatively large throat, and it really plays larger than it is.

The Bach 36 is a Small Orchestral trombone, and definitely plays quite a bit bigger than the 3b, even with the same size bell.

[ithinknot]

[3B] bell design also has a relatively large throat

FWIW, this is not correct - it's actually quite tight, and a smaller taper than the 2B despite the ultimate flare diameter

[Matt K]

+1 for 3B.

[EriKon]

As you already have a high class small bore horn (the Thein is a .500 bore horn if I remember correctly, but there also might be other configurations), I would suggest a medium bore horn to open up your range of possible jobs. A Bach 36 seems to be a good choice for that, ideally with a valve section I would say, but also without. It's just a perfect all-around horn for theatre work, but also possible to play in jazz settings or even certain orchestral contexts. As an owner of both, I would definitely go for the Bach if I had to choose, because I can do more work with it than with the 3B. And if you already have a good small bore horn, then definitely go for the medium bore one, unless you want to replace your current horn or want a back up for it.

[JacobsianApostle]

I agree that if you’re not trying to replace your .500 in its duties but simply want to add to your toolbox then a 36 gives you a wider range of possibilities. A .508 seems kind of redundant at that point.

Lots of people play jazz on medium or even large bores because they prefer the sound and feel. If it’s specifically about being more comfortable playing louder music then I’d also lean 36. My 2B blows more open than most of the 3B’s I’ve tried fwiw.

[hyperbolica]

3B will give you crisper articulations with a brighter sound. 36 maybe more power overall, and a more general trombone voice. The Maxim is listed as a jazz horn already.https://thein-brass.de/en/instrument/ja ... one-maxim/

Both 3b and 36 are general use horns, but without an F attachment, the 3b is less general. Kind of depends on which niche needs filling. Do you need a more legit horn, or do you just want another jazz voice.

If you just play them, you'll see the difference immediately. It's a little of an oversimplification to just call a 3b a jazz horn and a 36 classical, but that kind of summarizes the differences.

[TromboneMonkey]

OP states he wants something to use in situations requiring more volume. I'd very strongly recommend a 3B for that reason.

I've owned and used both in 3-horn section live work, and the 3B is easier to use, by a mile. A 36 can work but after a while it starts to feel like playing tennis with a stop sign.

If the OP said he was looking for max versatility I might agree with the other replies, but if more effectiveness in high volume situations is the goal: 3B.

[EOlson9]

3B+F would be my recommendation!

[Doug Elliott]

It seems to me the Thein is capable of putting out a lot of volume, and I'm not sure the 3B with be much advantage in that department if that's your concern.

A 36 or 36B will ultimately give you more flexibility to do different kinds of gigs. 3B - 3B/F - 36 - 36B are all excellent choices as a 2nd horn. It just depends on how much difference you want.

The same mouthpiece will not be ideal for any two of those, however. Mouthpiece choice may be your issue with volume now.

[MrHCinDE]

I’d tend towards a 3B+, maybe with F attachment. Or a 607F/608F.

The 3B+ plays a lot like a slightly bigger 3B for my tastes. I felt more comfortable playing the 3B+ than a 3B in a 10-piece brass group (tried both, both usable) because it had just a bit more presence.

I tried a 36 in the same group but had to push it a bit too much to get the zip which I like on some of the livelier pieces. Would also have been fine of course with a slightly shallower mouthpiece, we’re talking about small differences.

I’ve also played the 3B+ for some chamber music with trumpet, piano and cello. It’s a bit mellower than a 3B at lower volumes, somewhere between the 3B and 36. It blends surprisingly well with those other instruments but still has easy access to snappy articulations if you want them.

[dukesboneman]

I would recommend the Bach 36 over the 3B all day long.
It`s a much more versatile horn.
With the right mouthpiece it can sound great in any setting.
For my money , it`s one of the best "all purpose" horns out there

[Trombonic]

I think the 36 does not have the features he is looking for: power, projection, maybe a liitle more agressive than the Thein. I would choose the 3B if it is not from the 90ies...
The 36 is a little "diffuse" for my ears.

[harrisonreed]

I have played both horns pretty extensively. The 3BF with yellow brass bell cuts through an ensemble with almost no effort. The 36B doesn't.

The 3BF with sterling bell cuts through an ensemble even more, and you can keep getting more volume out of it if you keep pushing, without it sounding bad.

I wouldn't use a 36B in a big band if I had access to a 3B. I used a 36B a lot in "legit" settings when it was the only horn I had access to -- as soon as I got a larger tenor, I never touched a 36B again. Jack of all trades, I don't know, but certainly master of none. I think trying to do it all on one horn might be a limiting factor. It's cool to have a 3B for jazz, and a large tenor or maybe a 525/547 tenor if that floats your boat. Use a bass trombone for bass parts. Use an alto to play the Rhenish. Right tool for the job.

I do know of one guy who uses a 36B in a jazz combo and of course he sounds great. So it's not like you can't make it work.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Views on these horns is usually based on perspective. Many have shared that the 3B and its different variants is a very versatile horn. Some of these same people describe the 36 as being big, cumbersome and diffuse sounding. These are probably people who are very comfortable on the smaller bore horns.

I mostly play larger horns…….. .547 and bass trombone. Thus, my perspective is completely different. I have never liked the 3B because I think it plays very tight and very bright……even more so than many .500 bore horns. For me, a versatile “smaller” horn is a 36B. Contrary to the last contributor, I don’t think the Bach 36 is diffuse in any way. I feel like I could remove the eyebrows of every audience member with my 36 very easily.

The OP has been using a .500 bore Thein horn. I feel like the King 3B and 3BF would be very similar. My recommendation is to look at the King 3B+, 3B+F, Bach 36 and 36B. The larger horns might seem VERY different at first, but the OP is looking for an instrument that provides a different sound palette……that is what the larger horns will do!

[Matt K]

Stop it Harrison, you’re making me want to pick up a SS bell after selling my 3BGSX 10 years ago!!

[Doug Elliott]

A lot of the "bright" or "diffuse" aspects depend on the individual horn. I have played 36's that are bright and projecting.

And as Crazy4Tbone86 said, it depends on your perspective.

[harrisonreed]

Stop it Harrison, you’re making me want to pick up a SS bell after selling my 3BGSX 10 years ago!!

Yeah, well. It's never too late to buy another one. They got one up on Brass Ark right now I think

[EriKon]

100% agree with Doug.
My 36 is definitely on the bright side in terms of sound and it's a great projecting horn that I've already played in mostly every musical context you can imagine (jazz quartet/quintet, pit orchestra, pop horn section, bigband on 3rd chair, wind orchestra on 1st chair, modern classical music). My 3B is a bit of an opposite to that. It's also fairly bright, but doesn't project as well and feels a little stuffy. Also has some super weird issues eg. with the high Bb being way too flat on first position so that you can't use it and have to play it on third.

So, it definitely depends on the individual horn. I saw on a German selling page that OP is trying to sell a 36, so I guess he made his decision.

Also the mouthpiece choice, as Doug already mentioned, of course makes a huge difference. I've been playing on a DE XT E4 setup on the Bach, which works perfect for basically for every setting, except if I want the sound to be a little more round and darker on the orchestral side (for some pit shows maybe). I just change to a F+4 setup and voilà, it's a different horn which still blows really well but gets a lot more orchestral. So, huge difference. I would strongly encourage to check the opportunities with that.

[Trombonic]

Erik, as we learn from your post you may have a very bad 3B, I have used 3Bs for many many years very efficently in Big Band 1. and 2., Jazz, Pop, Rock, Musical.
Yes, there a a few bad Kings out there...Go for a 60 or 70ies if..
I have also played a lot of other brands that did the job. Small bore, medium and large bore. But on a Bach 36, Yammie 683, 645, 630, Conn 78H I have to be in very good shape to get the results I want.
You are very young but when aging such aspects (bore) are getting more and more important. I have played lead on a 42ish Aimrein trombone twenty years ago with no problems. But I really had to fight on a 78H last year.
It a kind of miracle with the 3B: you have to find a good one and you have to find the sweet spot. Then it plays like a dream IMO

[EriKon]

Erik, as we learn from your post you may have a very bad 3B, I have used 3Bs for many many years very efficently in Big Band 1. and 2., Jazz, Pop, Rock, Musical.
Yes, there a a few bad Kings out there...Go for a 60 or 70ies if..
I have also played a lot of other brands that did the job. Small bore, medium and large bore. But on a Bach 36, Yammie 683, 645, 630, Conn 78H I have to be in very good shape to get the results I want.
You are very young but when aging such aspects (bore) are getting more and more important. I have played lead on a 42ish Aimrein trombone twenty years ago with no problems. But I really had to fight on a 78H last year.
It a kind of miracle with the 3B: you have to find a good one and you have to find the sweet spot. Then it plays like a dream IMO

For sure! I've played other King 3Bs (earlier and later ones) that were better by a lot. Slotting was a lot easier and the 'cutting through' was on a whole different level. Still played my 3B for a few years, because I got used to it. Also played many different 36s with and without attachment and also many other medium bore horns (Conns 78/79, Yamaha, Rath, Lätzsch, M&W...). Some of them were insanely easy to play, some of them were not. Same with 3Bs, that's why I agree with Doug and the individual horn aspect.

Of course it's easier to play lead on a 3B than a 36/78. After all we're talking about different bore sizes and those .017 (or .014 for the 78H) inches do make a huge difference. There's a reason that you need different mouthpiece backbores for both.

In scenarios where I play and need a med bore trombone, it's usually because some people expect a more classical sound but I don't want to work as hard to play a large bore or the band/orchestra size doesn't justify that soundwise. In those scenarios I couldn't change to a 3B without receiving comments. But there's also a weird popular opinion over here that goes into a direction like "the bigger the better". Still it wouldn't work out, even with the best 3Bs that I played. Just not the right tool for the job. But that would be a totally different story if I would have to play a bigband gig on lead. Of course I would prefer a 3B over that.

OP is selling a New York 36 btw. If I wouldn't have just bought a horn from Noah, I would be very much tempted.

[wesleyrubim]

Hey guys thanks to everyone who took the time to help me out.
It's good to see each other's point of view

[wesleyrubim]

It seems to me the Thein is capable of putting out a lot of volume, and I'm not sure the 3B with be much advantage in that department if that's your concern.

A 36 or 36B will ultimately give you more flexibility to do different kinds of gigs. 3B - 3B/F - 36 - 36B are all excellent choices as a 2nd horn. It just depends on how much difference you want.

The same mouthpiece will not be ideal for any two of those, however. Mouthpiece choice may be your issue with volume now.

I agree with you Doug, the mouthpiece makes a lot of difference but I think what does not make me very satisfied with this trombone because of the material, the bell is copper which leaves a dark and wonderful sound but when I need to play with more volume the sound distorts very fast (which I particularly do not like so much).
I’ve looking to buy only a new bell only of yellow or gold brass but it is more than 2000€, so it’s a pretty expensive equipment (and they don’t take my used bell as part of payment.
I’m thinking maybe I should sell my thein and buy a trombone that particularly meets my needs more.
I recently tested a Rath R10 and R2 and was impressed with the lightness of the slide and the projection of this instrument. So maybe instead of buying a bach 36 or king 3b I should change my main instrument

[wesleyrubim]

Erik, as we learn from your post you may have a very bad 3B, I have used 3Bs for many many years very efficently in Big Band 1. and 2., Jazz, Pop, Rock, Musical.
Yes, there a a few bad Kings out there...Go for a 60 or 70ies if..
I have also played a lot of other brands that did the job. Small bore, medium and large bore. But on a Bach 36, Yammie 683, 645, 630, Conn 78H I have to be in very good shape to get the results I want.
You are very young but when aging such aspects (bore) are getting more and more important. I have played lead on a 42ish Aimrein trombone twenty years ago with no problems. But I really had to fight on a 78H last year.
It a kind of miracle with the 3B: you have to find a good one and you have to find the sweet spot. Then it plays like a dream IMO

For sure! I've played other King 3Bs (earlier and later ones) that were better by a lot. Slotting was a lot easier and the 'cutting through' was on a whole different level. Still played my 3B for a few years, because I got used to it. Also played many different 36s with and without attachment and also many other medium bore horns (Conns 78/79, Yamaha, Rath, Lätzsch, M&W...). Some of them were insanely easy to play, some of them were not. Same with 3Bs, that's why I agree with Doug and the individual horn aspect.

Of course it's easier to play lead on a 3B than a 36/78. After all we're talking about different bore sizes and those .017 (or .014 for the 78H) inches do make a huge difference. There's a reason that you need different mouthpiece backbores for both.

In scenarios where I play and need a med bore trombone, it's usually because some people expect a more classical sound but I don't want to work as hard to play a large bore or the band/orchestra size doesn't justify that soundwise. In those scenarios I couldn't change to a 3B without receiving comments. But there's also a weird popular opinion over here that goes into a direction like "the bigger the better". Still it wouldn't work out, even with the best 3Bs that I played. Just not the right tool for the job. But that would be a totally different story if I would have to play a bigband gig on lead. Of course I would prefer a 3B over that.

OP is selling a New York 36 btw. If I wouldn't have just bought a horn from Noah, I would be very much tempted.

What a pity you just bought a new horn.
This 36 is from my friend, he left it with me.
Amazing horn bro, if you live close to Berlin let’s meet up and you try it!

The only thing I don’t like is the weight of the slide, for me it’s too heavy, but besides that sounds warm and beautiful!

[dukesboneman]

As brought up earlier, a viable alternative would be (If you can find one) a Conn 78H.
Played these for years and they play a "Little" smaller than a 36
or...
Even more rare but incredible horns , a Conn 32H (.500/.522 Dual Bore) I`ve had 3 of these over the years and they all have played great. Beautiful dark ballade sound or when needed, it`ll take our opponents head off

[EriKon]

For sure! I've played other King 3Bs (earlier and later ones) that were better by a lot. Slotting was a lot easier and the 'cutting through' was on a whole different level. Still played my 3B for a few years, because I got used to it. Also played many different 36s with and without attachment and also many other medium bore horns (Conns 78/79, Yamaha, Rath, Lätzsch, M&W...). Some of them were insanely easy to play, some of them were not. Same with 3Bs, that's why I agree with Doug and the individual horn aspect.

Of course it's easier to play lead on a 3B than a 36/78. After all we're talking about different bore sizes and those .017 (or .014 for the 78H) inches do make a huge difference. There's a reason that you need different mouthpiece backbores for both.

In scenarios where I play and need a med bore trombone, it's usually because some people expect a more classical sound but I don't want to work as hard to play a large bore or the band/orchestra size doesn't justify that soundwise. In those scenarios I couldn't change to a 3B without receiving comments. But there's also a weird popular opinion over here that goes into a direction like "the bigger the better". Still it wouldn't work out, even with the best 3Bs that I played. Just not the right tool for the job. But that would be a totally different story if I would have to play a bigband gig on lead. Of course I would prefer a 3B over that.

OP is selling a New York 36 btw. If I wouldn't have just bought a horn from Noah, I would be very much tempted.

What a pity you just bought a new horn.
This 36 is from my friend, he left it with me.
Amazing horn bro, if you live close to Berlin let’s meet up and you try it!

The only thing I don’t like is the weight of the slide, for me it’s too heavy, but besides that sounds warm and beautiful!

Not super far away but also not that close unfortunately. But I sometimes get to Berlin for projects. Nothing planned for that right now, but maybe something comes up spontaneously. I'll let you know! Hit me up when you're around Hamburg or Hanover and want to meet up and play a bit together.