Where do you play high notes?

[ithinknot]

Of course, the inevitable pissing contest. Shame that our pissees are fluffing most of the lower notes en route to ultima Thule; extending the controlled "musical range" is interesting... beyond that, not so much.

[harrisonreed]

I'm waiting with great anticipation to see your video and hear your range.

Dude's high range is impressive, and he's doing it right. Let's see what you got!

Okay, here it is. Sorry for the bad quality, just one quick shot because of my neighbors
It is from e to e.



I hope one of the links works!

Regards

Your poor neighbors. The dogs must be going crazy.

[tbdana]

I'm waiting with great anticipation to see your video and hear your range.

Dude's high range is impressive, and he's doing it right. Let's see what you got!

Okay, here it is. Sorry for the bad quality, just one quick shot because of my neighbors
It is from e to e.




I hope one of the links works!

Regards

That is certainly higher than I can play, and I thought I had a decent range. Props.

[MrHCinDE]

Of course, the inevitable pissing contest.

Better leave that to the trumpet players, they win every time.

[mbarbier]

Of course, the inevitable pissing contest.

Better leave that to the trumpet players, they win every time.

God seriously. I remember hearing this trumpet player I went to school with warmup and he'd literally play arpeggios going off both ends of the piano. There's no competing with that! Made it worse that he's the nicest person.

[baileyman]

Skip Layton with Kenton trading with Buddy Childers. Who wins?



Previously posted on TTF.

[imsevimse]

Skip Layton with Kenton trading with Buddy Childers. Who wins?



Previously posted on TTF.

OMG I had never heard that. Thank's so much. That record is now on my wanted list.

/Tom

[baileyman]

Found this:

"Skip Layton, who replaced Roland, was with the Kenton organization for a short peri- od of time in 1946 and 1947. He is one of those intriguing figures in jazz that flashes across the sky, seemingly appearing from nowhere, making a stunning impression, and then disappears, not to be heard from again. Layton had played with Johnny Richards and Bobby Sherwood, but was hardly well known in the jazz community. The special skill that Layton possessed was the ability to play extremely high, but not just squeak- ing, as some trombonists do in the extreme upper register; Layton could play very high at a very loud volume. Kenton, and his chief arranger during this period, Pete Rugolo, discovered Layton’s ability and didn’t hesitate to add it to the other exciting musical ingredients that the band already employed. Layton’s first recording session with the band was 2 January 1947. By the session of 13 February, Layton had been “discovered,” and Rugolo wrote a thrilling “screech” section for the chart “Machito” with Layton and lead trumpeter Buddy Childers squealing away together in the high range. A similar effect was used at the 27 February session on part 2 of “Rhythm Incorporated.” Layton is on his own with high note work on “The Spider and the Fly” (31 March).5 Trumpeter Ken Hanna wrote a chart to feature Layton, in a more normal register, on a standard tune, “How Am I To Know?” Layton acquits himself quite nicely, with two solo sections that stand up well next to Winding’s work from the same period. But by September, Layton was no longer with the band. Michael Sparke suggests that this “underrated trombonist, with outstanding tone and technique and improvisational skills ... never quite made it in the competitive world of jazz.” 6"

at

https://content.alfred.com/catpages/01-ADV19106.pdf

[harrisonreed]

[ssking2b]

Sorry you're jealous. Get a life. These notes have been making me a really good living for 50 years.

Sorry, I want to apologize my harsh comment. I know that this is quite high, and somehow I don´t like that notes up there. Mine do not sound better!! I wanted not to critizise your high notes but this high notes on trombone or tuba in general. I love them when a lead trumpet player comes with those notes. I believe the trumpet´s high notes sound better for exciting the audience...Sorry again, impressive range!

Apology accepted. I was feeling testy that day. I actually don't try to play pretty melodies that high, but rather use the notes just like the lead trumpet player does for effect. I can play the double Bb etc loud enough to cut thru an entire big band...and it's SO much fun to give the trumpet players a complex!

[Olofson]

If you like it or not, many people do like it very much.
Many of us do practise higher at home than we do in performance, but in public we might not use the highest octave. If I could sound like the above clip i might.

[elmsandr]

Saw Dave and Rick Lillard in the 90s touring as “The High Flyers”. Great performance and blew my friends that I dragged with me out of the water. It can be a gimmick, but it doesn’t have to be. Make music first and the audience won’t notice what octave you are in unless they are looking for it.

Still have a tape (or two?) that I bought at that show somewhere, I should digitize it to have it handy. I may have worn it out, however…

Cheers,
Andy

[Finetales]

Since we're on the subject...

Dave Steinmeyer is my favorite high note acrobat on the trombone. The highest note I know of that he recorded was Eb6 at the end of "Can You Read My Mind", the same note that Bill Watrous recorded a few times. Of course Bill was also a high note acrobat, but I feel like he is known more for his blazing fast solos in and out of the extreme high register rather than raw high note prowess like Dave. But, for all of Dave's high chops, he always said that Rick Lillard could play higher.

As mentioned, Skip Layton was unique because he could shout those extreme notes over a cooking big band. Conrad Herwig is a modern example of this type of player...at ETW 2013 I heard Conrad play the loudest and punchiest Ab5s I've ever heard while improvising over the Army Blues. It was ridiculous!

Britt Woodman is another forgotten name (played with Ellington) who could play up there.

All that said, if you want to hear rock-solid consistency above F5, listen to some UHOP players. Notes up there are a standard part of their arrangements and they scream them out with a good shouty sound and seemingly no effort. Sadly, my favorite UHOP video where they paste dozens of G5s and up to D6 isn't available anymore. They usually play really big equipment too, like at least .547" and often straight basses.

In my opinion, a lot of modern jazz players have a habit of playing notes above the range they can play with a good/full sound. There is a break somewhere (usually F5) where everything above sounds like they're singing into the horn. To me, you can't really play a note until you can play it with the same sound, dynamics, and musicality as the notes below. It's not enough to just technically be able to hit the pitch. Contrast that with a player like Dave Steinmeyer, where his effortless Bb5s are just as sonorous and impactful as the octave below.

[imsevimse]

Since we're on the subject...

Dave Steinmeyer is my favorite high note acrobat on the trombone. The highest note I know of that he recorded was Eb6 at the end of "Can You Read My Mind", the same note that Bill Watrous recorded a few times. Of course Bill was also a high note acrobat, but I feel like he is known more for his blazing fast solos in and out of the extreme high register rather than raw high note prowess like Dave. But, for all of Dave's high chops, he always said that Rick Lillard could play higher.

As mentioned, Skip Layton was unique because he could shout those extreme notes over a cooking big band. Conrad Herwig is a modern example of this type of player...at ETW 2013 I heard Conrad play the loudest and punchiest Ab5s I've ever heard while improvising over the Army Blues. It was ridiculous!

Britt Woodman is another forgotten name (played with Ellington) who could play up there.

All that said, if you want to hear rock-solid consistency above F5, listen to some UHOP players. Notes up there are a standard part of their arrangements and they scream them out with a good shouty sound and seemingly no effort. Sadly, my favorite UHOP video where they paste dozens of G5s and up to D6 isn't available anymore. They usually play really big equipment too, like at least .547" and often straight basses.

In my opinion, a lot of modern jazz players have a habit of playing notes above the range they can play with a good/full sound. There is a break somewhere (usually F5) where everything above sounds like they're singing into the horn. To me, you can't really play a note until you can play it with the same sound, dynamics, and musicality as the notes below. It's not enough to just technically be able to hit the pitch. Contrast that with a player like Dave Steinmeyer, where his effortless Bb5s are just as sonorous and impactful as the octave below.

Interesting info, and I agree Dave is also my favourite up there. I've never been god at the real high notes. My register stops at F#. Thats the highest pich I can play with a slide vibrato and where the slide acctually matters for the vibrato. Anything above is just squeaks for me and I don't own those notes. I've always been impressed by people who can play high. Congrats to the chops, but as others have said "To try to impress with high notes on a trombone is like wanting to be the tallest dwarf." or something similar

/Tom

[ithinknot]

It's not enough to just technically be able to hit the pitch. Contrast that with a player like Dave Steinmeyer, where his effortless Bb5s are just as sonorous and impactful as the octave below.

Yup, that's why I draw the line between controlled "musical" range, and the potentially wide span of falsetto that follows. I can play all of DS's notes - it's not much of an achievement - but I can't play them like that.

The Skip Layton thing is crazy, and obviously truly loud loud. But a question for those who've heard Dave Steinmeyer really up close - how loud? I'm seriously asking, and I have nothing but love for his playing. Lead playing off-mic is a different story, but the high ballad work is always pretty close to the mic, and it seems to me that he perfectly cultivated a brightness and intensity that he could match through all registers without actually having to work too hard. But I'd love to hear him live, and I never have.

[Finetales]

The Skip Layton thing is crazy, and obviously truly loud loud. But a question for those who've heard Dave Steinmeyer really up close - how loud? I'm seriously asking, and I have nothing but love for his playing. Lead playing off-mic is a different story, but the high ballad work is always pretty close to the mic, and it seems to me that he perfectly cultivated a brightness and intensity that he could match through all registers without actually having to work too hard. But I'd love to hear him live, and I never have.

Well, he played lead in the Note so he can play plenty loud off-mic. But as for his stratospheric ballads, they are of course very miced but he still pumps out real sound. He is certainly not confined to bell-eating-the-mic volumes. When I played with him he was not at all a reserved/covered player. I'm not sure he could bury a band that high like Skip could, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could either.

[tbdana]

Since we're on the subject...

Dave Steinmeyer is my favorite high note acrobat on the trombone. The highest note I know of that he recorded was Eb6 at the end of "Can You Read My Mind", the same note that Bill Watrous recorded a few times. Of course Bill was also a high note acrobat, but I feel like he is known more for his blazing fast solos in and out of the extreme high register rather than raw high note prowess like Dave.

Yeah, that's a good observation. And indeed it was that Watrous cadenza on Fourth Floor Walkup that begins on that Eb6 that changed my life. When I first heard that cadenza (before I knew him), no one had ever done anything like that before, and I knew that my only two options were to throw my horn in the ocean or re-examine everything I thought I knew about the limits of trombone playing.

You make a great point about Bill's facility in the high range. To me, having that facility defines whether or not you can really play those notes. Hitting the notes is a gimmick. Having that facility means owning the register.

I heard that register a lot. I worked and played and just hung out and smoked mountains of weed with Watrous for 15-20 years before his stroke, back when he was at his best. So I got to hear him all the time and really pick his playing apart. One of the conclusions I came to was that I did not like that Billy played so much in that register. I don't think the character of the horn in that range is very trombone-like. I understand why he did it. Facility is so much easier in that register because the partials are so close together and you barely have to move the slide to rip off lightning fast licks. And, of course, it's impressive. But I don't like a steady diet of it. I like reaching for that register for effect, but I don't like living up there. Leave that to trumpets and alto sax players. Even if you truly have that range the way Watrous did (and no one has it the way Billy did), it's still gimmicky and somehow "off" sounding.

So I still come down that you have to be able to play those notes with clarity and facility, but that you usually should not unless it's written in the music or you use it only rarely for effect.

[Finetales]

So I still come down that you have to be able to play those notes with clarity and facility, but that you usually should not unless it's written in the music or you use it only rarely for effect.

I tend to like the way Dave used it (usually only on solo ballads, where those very high notes really do have a lovely effect - I'm thinking specifically of And We Will Love Again) the best. Or my previous example of Conrad Herwig...he's not known as a high note player, he rattles off great lines in the "normal" trombone register, and then out of nowhere pastes a few Ab5s in a row. Amazing moment that pushed everyone's hair back live.

[elmsandr]

Yup, that's why I draw the line between controlled "musical" range, and the potentially wide span of falsetto that follows. I can play all of DS's notes - it's not much of an achievement - but I can't play them like that.

The Skip Layton thing is crazy, and obviously truly loud loud. But a question for those who've heard Dave Steinmeyer really up close - how loud? I'm seriously asking, and I have nothing but love for his playing. Lead playing off-mic is a different story, but the high ballad work is always pretty close to the mic, and it seems to me that he perfectly cultivated a brightness and intensity that he could match through all registers without actually having to work too hard. But I'd love to hear him live, and I never have.

The concert with Dave and Rick I mentioned above was in a smallish concert hall and was one of the loudest concerts I was at in the decade of the 90s. For reference: Maynard, that one, and Doc… all amazingly loud. Think I lost some hearing with all of them. Funny that the smaller venue acoustic performances were louder than the Lolapalooza(s) that I also went to…

Cheers,
Andy

[imsevimse]

I'm late to the contest and I'm also not close to what earlier combatants did, but you can hear that the f# is still a note and that the a is not. Anyhow some champs with super choops like Dave Steinmeier manage to make much higher notes speak clear and with power. It's a puzzle to me I have never solved, but give me a few years and a few advice and then maybe. Anyone has a suggestion how I can go higher? How can I get those real high notes speak? What is different in mouth (tounge, airstream) when you play them if you compare it to the f#? Maybe I'm just using too much force I think I will add some high squeak notes to the daily routine. I guess I need to be there several times every day for a while until it stays.

This is my attempt.



[Edit:

Since this is a discussion in the category of "Teaching & Learning", I would strongly recommend using Scientific Pitch Notation: pitch-class name with octave number. [I would also strongly recommend not using Helmholtz notation.] See below. Regarding notation for slide positions, rather than listing "altered" reference positions (with sharps and flats), which are not very precise, I find it helpful to list the nearest reference position with the harmonic number in parenthesis. For example, all available equitempered tones in the octave up from Bb4 can be listed, without ambiguity, as follows:

Bb4: 1(8), 3(9), 5(10), 7(11).
B4: 2(9), 4(10), 6(11), 7(12).
C5: 1(9), 3(10), 5(11), 6(12).
C#5: 2(10), 4(11), 5(12), 6(13).
D5: 1(10), 3(11), 4(12), 5(13), 7(14).
Eb5: 2(11), 3(12), 4(13), 6(14), 7(15).
E5: 2(12), 3(13), 5(14), 6(15), 7(16).
F5: 1(12), 2(13), 4(14), 5(15), 6(16), 7(17).
F#5: 1(13), 3(14), 4(15), 5(16), 6(17), 7(18).
G5: 2(14), 3(15), 4(16), 5(17), 6(18), 7(19).
Ab5: 2(15), 3(16), 4(17), 5(18), 6(19), 7(20).
A5: 1(15), 2(16), 3(17), 4(18), 5(19), 6(20), 7(21).
Bb5: 1(16), 2(17), 3(18), 4(19), 5(20), 6(21), 7(22).
.....
Good luck!

Thank's, thats really helpful. I tried the A5 in first instead of second, maybe it is better, anyway I got it better there this time. It did lock in to pitch and was more steady. It could be the horn too (King 3B). I also backed off a bit with air on that note. Give me a couple of weeks and I'm in the game, at least with that note. That double high C#6 was insane. It's just a major third up from the A5 but it feels like climbing a mountain from there. I'm sure it's just to find the technique to do it like anything else on the horn, but it's easy to think of it as pain and muscle-work. I know it isn't but when I'm on that A5 and imagine yet another major third or even a fifth? OMG it' feels crazy anyone can play higher notes. That's the feeling I'm struggling with at the moment.

Here is my second attempt

]

/Tom

[Sesquitone]

Harking back to the original theme, i.e. where (on the slide) to play tones in the very high register, I'd like to address a number of points that have arisen earlier, plus some others.

First, as with every other instrument used in Western Music, for the trombone we need to consider 12-note equitemperament as a basis. Slight adjustments (e.g. for just intonation, &c.) are automatically made by experienced players of all instrument (except keyboards), as necessary. [See: Vera, Colby and Bilal, "The Trombone Section on Tuning a Chord" on YouTube.]

Second, it is important to use standardised terminology and notation for identifying pitches (in their respective octaves). Scientific Pitch Notation (International Pitch Notation or, more commonly, Standard Pitch Notation, SPN) is the globally accepted standard, almost universally required in professional publications in fields of music theory, history, analysis, and practice, and in acoustics and related areas. [See: Flutopedia.com.octave_notation for a handy comparative summary.] Notably, the ITA Journal does not require SPN—and allows the (non-intuitive) Helmholtz notation to be used.

Third, it should be clear that, for discussing slide positions, there needs to be a widely accepted and easily comprehended standard notation for labelling those positions of (equitempered) tones in the upper register that deviate significantly from the reference positions defined by the seven fundamentals and their octaves. Below, I discuss two possibilities: (i) a simple decimal notation using (as needed) one decimal place, and (ii) and adjusted-reference-position notation using appropriate symbols signifying shortening or lengthening of the slide away from the nearest reference position. Each of these systems requires added notation for only three distinct types of deviation from the integer-valued reference positions. I'll give a few examples of how such notation might be used.

Also, I'll attach some impedance/frequency diagrams for tenor and bass trombones, showing resonance peaks that (except for the lowest) closely correlate with the full harmonic series over a wide range—but tend to "wash out" at very high frequencies. And we'll see that, indeed, there are significant differences between different bore sizes.

I start by referring to the handy slide-position calculator designed by Jeffrey Clymer [clymer.altervista.org (Trombone Slide Positions)]. For any desired tone, the calculator lists, for each available harmonic, the slide position number in decimalised form (with up to two decimal places) and the physical extension in centimetres. [Temperature (inside the instrument) determines the speed of sound and thus the sound-path length for a given frequency (and each available harmonic).] Using the default temperature, reference positions for fundamentals and their octaves are represented, as usual, by integers from 1 to 7.

One decimal place is enough to uniquely identify non-integer positions. Equitempered tones on the 3rd, 6th, 12th, 17th, 18th, and 19th harmonics deviate from the nearest reference position by much less than 0.1 of a full position increment, so positions for these tones are also represented by integers. According to the calculator, equitempered tones on the 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th harmonics would require shortening by about 0.1 of a full position increment. But, in practice, these deviations are usually small enough to also be ignored. However, for the 7th and 14th harmonics, equitempered tones occur at about 0.3 of a position increment shorter than the nearest reference position, so these are notated as N.7, where N is the integer label of the shorter adjacent reference position. Equitempered tones on the 11th harmonic have the form N.5. And those on the 13th harmonic are appropriately labelled as N.4. Above the 20th harmonic, we are usually in the "megaphone" regime—where position numbers become meaningless [see: UNSW, below].

As an intuitive (albeit less precise) alternative, we could use an "adjusted-nearest-reference-position" notation. For example, instead of D4 (7th harmonic) as being in position 6.7, we could say that this is found in sharp-seventh position, notated as #7. Just "how sharp" (i.e. 0.3 of a full increment) will be known by the player. Similarly, 13th harmonic F5 is in position 2.4 or flat-second, b2. These notations are already commonly used. Equitempered tones on the 11th harmonic fall almost exactly half-way between adjacent reference positions‚ but 1 cent closer to the longer position. I will use an asterisk (star) to designate the deviation, so that, for example, 11th harmonic D5 is in position 2.5 or star-third, *3.

In summary, we need three distinct non-integer labels:
N.7 = #(N+1) for harmonics 7 and 14
N.5 = *(N+1) for harmonic 11, and
N.4 = bN for harmonic 13.

The accompanying table gives this information for the two proposals from Bb3 up to C6. Position labels in boldface are the same as those one octave below. Note how additional position labels in the upper octave interleave between the boldface labels. Dashes indicate the megaphone regime.

The first example in staff notation shows how non-integer decimal notation might be used for specifying positions for a whole-tone scale played in the lower octave followed by a chromatic scale from F4 to F5, with every other note in the latter using the same position as that in the whole-tone scale. The second example shows the same two scales (using some "alternate" outer positions), making use of the "against-the-grain" technique for brilliant effect when played very fast. The third example shows a little chromatic phrase from the 12th to the 16th harmonic (and back down) to be played as a lip-slur exercise. On a well-designed instrument, each note should "speak" (or "slot") clearly rather than sounding like part of a continuous glissando. I've included the respective ETSP Charts for those who find them helpful (or merely interesting!).

Finally, I include some impedance/frequency diagrams—"signatures"— for five trombones of varying bore sizes, plus a predicted signature for the Conn 88H taken from Alistair Braden's tour de force of a doctoral thesis (as are those of the Rath trombones). The King signature is from a paper by Fréour & Scavone. So-called "good slotting" corresponds to tall-and-narrow resonance humps. And "good intonation" means that peak frequencies closely match (equitempered) tones of a major triad (plus the ninth). As can be seen, in the very high register, large bore instruments tend to have resonance humps that "slump down and spread out" at frequencies below those of smaller bores, before they all trail off into the megaphone regime.

As usual, constructive comments, questions, and suggestions for improvement are always welcome.




.

[BrassSection]

Usually on the second floor, it’s easier than in the basement.

[BrassSection]

My question is, how high do you HAVE to play? In my situation, I rarely see anything written above a high F for any instrument I play, when actually using music, with the exception of trumpet, in which I’ve had a high C (Bb). During improv, which is 99% of my playing, I generally stop at the F (true F, depending on which horn it might not be written as F) with an occasional F# on all horns. Recently went for a high C on trombone on an upbeat energetic song with no sweat and it worked well in the song. Must be a lucky one, generally my only practice instrument is trumpet unless I have music for playing in an ensemble (admitted poor sight reader), and about once a month will just for fun hit a high Bb on trombone or euph, never really tried the C before, but it was easy and controlled.

As far as positions, pretty much what others are using, alternate positions usually based on what notes before and after.

[Finetales]

Anyhow some champs with super choops like Dave Steinmeier manage to make much higher notes speak clear and with power. It's a puzzle to me I have never solved, but give me a few years and a few advice and then maybe. Anyone has a suggestion how I can go higher? How can I get those real high notes speak?

Dave has a chip on one of his front teeth, and he will tell you that he got an extra octave when that tooth got chipped. Who knows how true that is, but he is not the only high note brass player with a chip in one of his front teeth.

That said, the real way is to just play up there more. Most players will very occasionally venture above their comfort range just to mess around once in a while, but if you practice up there consistently the sound will get fuller and the notes will lock in easier. How worth it is it to spend practice time doing that? Well...that's up to you!

Also, you have an alto trombone, yes? Alto doesn't necessarily increase your range, but it can help to really lock in notes at the edge of your existing range. This happened to me with G5. That note locks in really easily on alto, and I found after consistent alto practice that the note also locked in consistently for me on tenor, after only sort of being able to play that note before.

[Doug Elliott]

I'm pretty sure Dave had the same range before the chip. Maybe it became more secure. It's one of those things that makes a good story to be repeated endlessly.

Over the years my front teeth have separated very slightly so I now have a small space. I feel stronger than ever, but it's just a coincidence - I've been playing correctly for 20 more years than I had been 20 years ago.

[Finetales]

I'm pretty sure Dave had the same range before the chip. Maybe it became more secure. It's one of those things that makes a good story to be repeated endlessly.

That makes more sense!

[tbdana]

Anyone has a suggestion how I can go higher? How can I get those real high notes speak?

Sorry for the bad news, but I think the answer is that unfortunate word: PRACTICE. You just have to spend a lot of time up there, and not just hitting the notes but doing scales, intervals, arpeggios, etc. In other words, living up there.

Of course, a lot of playing strong and clear up there is a matter of strength-building. So you're going to get tired fast when you start doing that, and that's when most people give up. But do an hour a day of scale and interval practice where you never go below high Bb (except perhaps for a note or two to check that you're not resetting your chops to play high) and I'll be dollars to donuts you'll get that range in time. Progress comes one half-step at a time, and each note you get takes a lot of work. Then it takes just as much work to get the next note.

Psychologically, my thought process is to devote a period of time, like two years, to the effort. In two years I'll be two years older no matter what, and I can be two years older with a high range or without. In fact, just typing that inspires me to go practice my high range. Bye!

[timothy42b]

Of course, a lot of playing strong and clear up there is a matter of strength-building. So you're going to get tired fast when you start doing that, and that's when most people give up. But do an hour a day of scale and interval practice where you never go below high Bb (except perhaps for a note or two to check that you're not resetting your chops to play high).

An hour above high Bb? This one?

My scales are going to be Do Re Mi splat, and repeat. An hour of that will be boring I think, and my family has to listen to it.

[tbdana]

An hour above high Bb? This one?

My scales are going to be Do Re Mi splat, and repeat. An hour of that will be boring I think, and my family has to listen to it.

LOL! Yeah. Hard. Boring. And then it gets even harder. But that range comes from doing all the work you do in a lower range up in the higher range, and spending tons and tons of time doing it. Eventually, the splats come higher and higher.

My "start at Bb" is kind of arbitrary. Start lower if you have to. But you do need to give yourself a floor, so you don't cop out. You gotta stay up there and do the work no matter how limited, or difficult, or boring.

And that is why so few people really have a useful high range. It's just damn hard and boring, and takes forever because progress is incremental and painfully slow.

This is just my experience and opinion. Hopefully someone will come in with a magic bullet and set me straight. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Doug Elliott]

It's not necessarily about either practice time or strength.

A couple of days ago I was teaching an older trumpet player who could struggle up to high C, sometimes if he was lucky.
One small change and a high C came out effortlessly and he could easily go to G above.

You have to know what to look for and where to look for it.

[tbdana]

It's not necessarily about either practice time or strength.

A couple of days ago I was teaching an older trumpet player who could struggle up to high C, sometimes if he was lucky.
One small change and a high C came out effortlessly and he could easily go to G above.

You have to know what to look for and where to look for it.

By all means, I bow to knowledge. What do you look for, and where do you look for it?

[Doug Elliott]

It's individual..I do a lot of diagnostics in a lesson.

[MStarke]

Not that I could compete by any means compete with e.g. Doug's expertise and some of the very extreme playing examples.

Still my own experience - substantially increasing and stabilizing my high range within the last years - showed that I need both: Correcting the approach and technique, but also simple "training" to a) build endurance and b) embedding correct approach in my playing.