Where do you play high notes?

[tbdana]

When you get into the upper register, the partials are really close together. This gives you lots of options as to where (what positions) to play high notes, but it also makes it more treacherous up there. So I'm curious where folks play those notes.

For me, while I'll play them in various positions depending on the surrounding notes, I'll default to the following:

High Bb: 1st
High B: 4th/2nd (50/50)
High C: 3rd (1st if it's in passing)
High Db: 2nd
High D: 1st
High Eb: #2nd
High E: b3rd (this is my most treacherous note)
High F: b2nd
High Gb: #2nd
High G: 4th
High Ab: 3rd
High A: 2nd
Double Bb: 1st, but pretty much any note in any position, from there on up.

What works best for you? I'm particularly interested in where people play the high E, since of all the high notes, that one always feels the least solid if I try to play it in 2nd.

[WilliamLang]

Here's my list:

High Bb: 1st
High B: 2nd
High C: 1st, slightly flat
High Db: 2nd
High D: 1st
High Eb: #2nd
High E: 2nd, but slightly flat - like the 6th partial
High F: 1st
High Gb: #3rd, like Gb4
High G: #2nd, like G4
High Ab: 3rd
High A: 2nd
Double Bb: 1st

[hyperbolica]

I'd add #3 for high D. To be honest, I don't mess with anything over high F. That's really the last note that comes out clearly for me. I also haven't really worked on anything that far out as I can't say I've ever had need for it. E I generally put in 2, probably b2, but up there everything is reactive (play and adjust) .

How often /where do you run into need for that? Playing up there and really using those notes is really damned impressive.

[ithinknot]

(If I say 2.5 I don't necessarily mean equidistant. It's just that generally I don't think of those notes belonging more to one position than another in b/# terms, and then I learn their specific place on a given horn)

Bb: 1st or 3rd almost equally
B: 2nd
C: 3rd
C#: 2nd
D: 2.5th seems convenient and natural, and I find it hard to love a horn where that 11th partial feels iffy (most Kings)... or 1st
Eb: 3rd, or 1.5th
E: 2nd, or 3.5th
F: 2.5th more often than 1st
F#: #3rd like F#4 (usually also ok in 1.5th, compared to the #2nd for G)
G: #2nd like G4 (4th on horns where that's better, but in most cases either both are usable or neither truly slots)
Ab: 3rd
A: 2nd
Double Bb: 3rd, moving the slide outwards at that point feels more physically open (not exactly true, but I like the idea and the reminder not to work too hard)

If a horn has a solid high E, and the 5th partial Bb in #5th feels completely neutral, it's probably good...

hyper is of course right in terms of need... I just play up there because I can. I can go higher, but at the moment Bb is about as high as I feel I can get in and out musically (that point is getting higher, but it takes time). It's one area where my technique doesn't suck, and the closeness of partials and lack of substantial arm movement has a special ease that feels like singing.

(Also, high ballad playing is the best noise you get out of a trombone... for me, it's basically all because of hearing Gordon Campbell on the radio and at the Birmingham ITF when I was a kid.)

[Pezza]

Bb 1 or 3
B 2
C 1 or 3
Db 2
D 1 or 4
Eb 3
E 2
F1,4 or6!
Anything above is just blow & hope for the best, but I am mainly a bass bone & eupho player!

[harrisonreed]

I play high Eb in third and F# in sharp 3rd

[Olofson]

In the practise studio.
Bb 1 / 3
B 2
C 1 /(3)
Db 3,5 /(2)
D 2,5
Eb 1,5
E 3,5 /(2)
F 2,5
Gb 1,5
G 3 /2
Ab 2 /3
A 1 /3 /2
Bb 1/1,5/2 or what ever. In performing I do what I can and hope for the best. Also much depnding on what horn I am playing.

[imsevimse]

Bb1 (3)
B 2
C 1 (3)
Db 2
D 2,5 (1)
Eb 1,5
E 3,5 (2)
F 2,5 (1)
Gb 1,5 (is as high as I acctually can play)
G 2 (3) (squeak)
Ab 3 (squeak)
A 2 (squeak)
Bb 1 (is my absolute limit squeak)

/Tom

[KWL]

Where do you play high notes?

In my dreams.

Ken (62H, 73H, 1-1/2G)

[SFA]

Where do you play high notes?

In my dreams.

Ken (62H, 73H, 1-1/2G)

[henrysa]

Anybody else feel terribly inadequate? This must be a cult of Trombone Castrati. I'm gonna try helium....actually I'm jealous as heck. Back to my practice dungeon.

[Trombonic]

Backstage, to impress my trombone colleagues

[BGuttman]

Backstage, to impress my trombone colleagues

I've known several like this. Then you put a D above the bass staff in front of them and they can't play it

[mbarbier]

I find, at least on my horn, what the Ab/A slot really well in first and second position (15th partial). Does anyone else find that?

I like the way D works in #3 (especially for softer things) and Eb in #2.

[tbdana]

Anybody else feel terribly inadequate? This must be a cult of Trombone Castrati. I'm gonna try helium....actually I'm jealous as heck. Back to my practice dungeon.

I'm a big believer in being able to play the entire instrument, from the lowest pedal note on the horn to a double Bb.

One reason to reach for these notes: If you never play above high Bb, that's your top note and is the hardest note you play. If you can play a high F, your high Bb is in your middle register and you don't struggle to play it. If you can play a double Bb, then the high F is in your middle register.

But I do use many of those notes. Several charts I've played have gone up to a high Eb. Just this afternoon I was playing in a pit orchestra where the range of my part goes down to a pedal F# and goes up to a high D. If you're on the gig, you best be able to play those notes reliably and well, and the way to be solid on them is to have notes beyond them.

Also, in playing jazz I often like to play in the octave between F two ledger lines above the staff to a high F, because the partials are close together and if you practice in that register then it's easy to have a lot of facility in that range without a lot of slide movement. Plus it's just freakin' awesome to start a solo on the break by nailing whatever note the lead trumpet player just played.

[mbarbier]

Anybody else feel terribly inadequate? This must be a cult of Trombone Castrati. I'm gonna try helium....actually I'm jealous as heck. Back to my practice dungeon.

I generally view the extremely high range as a little bit silly. However there's a few pieces in the contemporary music realm that I really like/wanted to play (particularly Spahlinger's gegen unendlich, which I think Will has done too) so on my end it's mostly just a (slightly arduous) necessity.

But agree with some of the other sentiments that being able to comfortably go above F has just made it a bit less worrying when I need to just play in the "normal" high range. If that makes sense?

[hyperbolica]

Beethoven 5 calls for a high F from a dead stop. Some solos also including David. I've got a reliable F and have used it legitimately (where the music actually calls for it). But I've never seen anything written higher than that, unless you count Christopher Bill arrangements.

I play in a quartet where 3 of us have at least an F. On my first lesson with John Swallow, he said "That high F and a quarter you can get a cup of coffee". In the end, it's nice to have, but you can't pull it out to show it off much, and few would care if you did. Nobody longs for the Tastee Bros to start playing trombones, amirite? Still, a real "dubba Bb" is pretty dang impressive.

[harrisonreed]

High F# or G is really all you need in "legit" pro world. Probably commercial pro world too, unless you're doing gimmicks. I think Alessi is on the record for topping out at high F#, but he owns that note.

That high F in Beethoven is for a substantially different instrument than modern tenor, isn't it? And I think he had complained that trombonists couldn't play it, right?

[WilliamLang]

I find it interesting as research to see what can be done - and I also like playing contemporary pieces like Spahlinger and Rihm's Jungen und Former, like Mattie said. It also sometimes gets composers excited to write for me as well, which is always fun, and gives me a chance to personalize a piece, and hopefully inspire the next generation.

Also playing super high normalizes the normal "high" range. I've done the Xenakis Concerto Troorkh twice over in Europe, and playing 56 high Fs and a few high Gbs feels a lot easier when it's an octave and half lower than maximum range.

But it also all really needs to come from a solid base - I don't and would never teach sacrificing one range for another - my whole method is about learning to connect from F6 to pedal F with minimal inefficiency.

[ssking2b]

Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

[mbarbier]

Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

Nice! That whole video is really spectacular! Thanks for sharing!

[tbdana]

Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

Dude has an impressive range, for sure. And yes, I think he's exactly right about his embouchure, and keeping that embouchure set right where it is is what allows for that range. I hear so many people talking about shifting in different ranges, and different amounts of pressure, and such, but I've always been taught just what this guy is saying, so naturally I agree with it.

[imsevimse]

Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

You did that well. Nice playing and great chops
/Tom

[Trombonic]

Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

Some sloppy high notes..so what?
Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.
In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..

[timothy42b]

Where do you play high notes?

In my dreams.

Ken (62H, 73H, 1-1/2G)

I play them at home.

That isn't intended as humor, but rather bemused frustration.

In my daily routine I take any exercise up to the F above high C, sometimes beyond. At the beginning of practice, at the end.

And in rehearsal or concert, I'm going to struggle an octave below it. I haven't figured out why.

[ssking2b]

Some sloppy high notes..so what?
Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.
In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..

Sorry you're jealous. Get a life. These notes have been making me a really good living for 50 years.

[ssking2b]

As far as positions go, I like super F in flat flat 2nd. above that just depends on the day. most of the really high notes play in just about any position 1-4 you want them in. I guess it depends where the work the best each day. I test that briefly after I'm warmed up...and then go on to play. (Warming up for me takes maybe 5 minutes. For me it's more about moving air than chops buzz.)

[BGuttman]

Once you get above F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) you are in "French Horn territory" where the partials are so close together you can play any note anywhere. That's how the original valveless French Horn worked. The instrument was as long as an F-attachment trombone with the F-attachment engaged and you played a small mouthpiece way up in the partials. Intonation was adjusted using the hand in the bell.

[tbdana]

Here watch this all the way to the end ad then talk to me about high notes. As a commercial player you genteel have em!

Some sloppy high notes..so what?
Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.
In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..

I'm waiting with great anticipation to see your video and hear your range.

Dude's high range is impressive, and he's doing it right. Let's see what you got!

[tbdana]

As far as positions go, I like super F in flat flat 2nd. above that just depends on the day. most of the really high notes play in just about any position 1-4 you want them in. I guess it depends where the work the best each day. I test that briefly after I'm warmed up...and then go on to play. (Warming up for me takes maybe 5 minutes. For me it's more about moving air than chops buzz.)

For me, at least, if I really have the note (as opposed to just squealing out some high sound) then it falls into a definite partial. Yep, those notes can be played in lots of positions up there. But for me, it's precisely because the partials are so close together that I need to find the one that feels most solid for that particular note. And like you, that high F feels pretty solid in a #3rd/b2nd. It locks in there, for me, better than in 1st, and I can put vibrato on it in a #3rd.

For me, that E a 1/2 step below that is super hard to play in 2nd for some reason, and I'll often hit the Eb or F# if I'm going for it out of the blue (though it's easier in 2nd if it's part of a scale or run). I feel most confident when I pick the position that locks it in the easiest. For instance, there's a ballad I play arranged by John LaBarbera that comes in on a high C and immediately moves to the E above that. I play the E in a #4/b3. I've missed it too many times trying to play that E in 2nd.

In fact, it was after playing that tune that I came home and penned this thread. I was wondering if others have the same issues and approach that I do.

[ithinknot]

I like super F in flat flat 2nd. above that just depends on the day. most of the really high notes play in just about any position 1-4 you want them in. I guess it depends where the work the best each day.

For me, at least, if I really have the note (as opposed to just squealing out some high sound) then it falls into a definite partial. Yep, those notes can be played in lots of positions up there. But for me, it's precisely because the partials are so close together that I need to find the one that feels most solid for that particular note.

Yeah, I don't understand the suggestion that it's a free-for-all above F. Above super Bb, sure, but on a lot of horns the F# slots are better than the F options, and conversely there are definite places where you can't lock a G (and hopefully some that you can), and so on. Vibrato is an indicator, though you have to be honest with yourself - there's a difference between real slide vib in a slot, and just happening to move the slide around while you scream a pitch through the middle of the horn.

It's tricky, but there are horns out there with a really good E in 2nd - the hit rate seems better with Bachs than Kings, but at this point it's down to the specific build, not just the design.

[mbarbier]

As far as positions go, I like super F in flat flat 2nd. above that just depends on the day. most of the really high notes play in just about any position 1-4 you want them in. I guess it depends where the work the best each day. I test that briefly after I'm warmed up...and then go on to play. (Warming up for me takes maybe 5 minutes. For me it's more about moving air than chops buzz.)

For me, at least, if I really have the note (as opposed to just squealing out some high sound) then it falls into a definite partial. Yep, those notes can be played in lots of positions up there. But for me, it's precisely because the partials are so close together that I need to find the one that feels most solid for that particular note. And like you, that high F feels pretty solid in a #3rd/b2nd. It locks in there, for me, better than in 1st, and I can put vibrato on it in a #3rd.

I totally agree - like it's acoustically possible to play those pitches just about anywhere because of how many partials there are, but I find there's spots where they reliably slot vs just kinda squeal at pitch.

[ssking2b]

Granted. Some of the ultra high notes, while they can be played in mini places tend to sound better in some rather than others. I go up on the top after my warm up and just solidify which places I like those notes the best and typically then play double C and third double B-flat in first AA second AA flat almost 3rd works for me and then of these notes have a sound that will get you any kudos in the orchestra. This is definitely a commercial thing. However, at the ATF workshop in 2002 Jay Friedman heard me playing a DD and I thought he was gonna pee his pants , he spent the next half an hour asking me how I did it

[ssking2b]

Sorry if my note nomenclature is odd I dictated that message to Siri. Let me also say about the really really high EN sharp second or sharp forth. I can pay it in either place, but it’s better for me in Chartres fourth however, I have shattered and shattered and shattered until I can put it in the extremely sharp second position because the Les of most musical lines I run into that get up there Seem to work better with a note in that position, if you can play it. I can, but I shut it a little bit every day. Also, the horn that I did that video on what is a 500 more Horan the mouthpiece is a custom altered Bach 11 C with us skeletonized exterior by Scott Lasky and a throat open by me to 15/64 or 1/64 of an inch less than a Bach 6 1/2 AL. Those notes are never going to win you any friends in the orchestra, but then again trombone players don’t play that I in orchestra.

[ssking2b]

OK I’m an idiot. No more dictating to Siri. She seems to completely mess up everything I say if anything what I said in the previous to post doesn’t make sense. It’s Siri’s fault. Just let me know and I’ll clarify.

[BGuttman]

I just want to know what EN Sharp is. And Chartres 4th (is that in France?)

Btw, Jay would have a lot more trouble playing the DD (D6) since he uses a lot bigger equipment that gives you more problems finding notes above F5.

[WilliamLang]

you can play much higher that DD and clearly on large bore orchestral equipment. to me it's more a matter of adaptation over time than equipment size. It's not that notes above F5 are particularly hard, it's more that we as a community tell ourselves to stop there more or less, and don't develop a usable sound as a result.

[ithinknot]

you can play much higher that DD and clearly on large bore orchestral equipment. to me it's more a matter of adaptation over time than equipment size. It's not that notes above F5 are particularly hard, it's more that we as a community tell ourselves to stop there more or less, and don't develop a usable sound as a result.

Actually, don't you find the super extreme stuff easier on large bores? (I've never squeaked higher than E6, and it's not something I care about, but it seems easier to get to that point with less resistance from the horn.)

With small horns, you retain the possibility of "classic"/conventional slotting further up the partial series. But in something like the Spahlinger mentioned above, where you've left behind any sort of "does this sound like Buddy Morrow?" paradigm and it's just a question of producing stable extreme pitches at particular dynamics on your wind instrument, the fact that the larger horn gets less involved in the process would seem to be an advantage.

[WilliamLang]

I haven't noticed much a difference between large and small bore to be honest. The slots get much closer as you go higher of course, but I find that 15th-16th partials can slot quite well and sound with a "classical" clarity, though above there it starts to happen more with steadiness of embouchure and good pitch visualization/muscle memory tied to slide position.

[Finetales]

Once you get above F5 (6 lines above the bass staff) you are in "French Horn territory" where the partials are so close together you can play any note anywhere.

You can, but there are also still defined slots in certain positions that work best way up there. Just have to find which ones work for you.

Here's my list:

Bb4: 1st, but I find myself playing it in 3rd as well when in fast passages with high Ab and C. Easier to just keep
it in 3rd.
B4: 2nd
C5: 3rd or slightly flat 1st. Which one I do more depends on the horn. On my 3Bs I use 1st more, but my bass likes 3rd a lot more so I mostly use that.
C#5: 2nd
D5: 1st or #3rd. My 3Bs like both positions equally so I use both. My large bore tenor has a solid one in 1st so I usually use 1st. My bass only slots there in #3rd, so I use that.
Eb5: #2nd, but my 3B has a good one in 3rd too so I sometimes play it that way.
E5: 2nd
F5: 1st
F#5: #3rd
G5: #2nd

Anything above this is the same as the octave below. I don't play above G5 very often though, if I did I might find a different slot I like better for those notes.

I know lots of lead trumpet players like to play their double A (concert G6, equivalent to our G5) with the 1st valve, which would correspond to 3rd position. I'll have to try that on trombone.

[Sesquitone]

Since this is a discussion in the category of "Teaching & Learning", I would strongly recommend using Scientific Pitch Notation: pitch-class name with octave number. [I would also strongly recommend not using Helmholtz notation.] See below. Regarding notation for slide positions, rather than listing "altered" reference positions (with sharps and flats), which are not very precise, I find it helpful to list the nearest reference position with the harmonic number in parenthesis. For example, all available equitempered tones in the octave up from Bb4 can be listed, without ambiguity, as follows:

Bb4: 1(8), 3(9), 5(10), 7(11).
B4: 2(9), 4(10), 6(11), 7(12).
C5: 1(9), 3(10), 5(11), 6(12).
C#5: 2(10), 4(11), 5(12), 6(13).
D5: 1(10), 3(11), 4(12), 5(13), 7(14).
Eb5: 2(11), 3(12), 4(13), 6(14), 7(15).
E5: 2(12), 3(13), 5(14), 6(15), 7(16).
F5: 1(12), 2(13), 4(14), 5(15), 6(16), 7(17).
F#5: 1(13), 3(14), 4(15), 5(16), 6(17), 7(18).
G5: 2(14), 3(15), 4(16), 5(17), 6(18), 7(19).
Ab5: 2(15), 3(16), 4(17), 5(18), 6(19), 7(20).
A5: 1(15), 2(16), 3(17), 4(18), 5(19), 6(20), 7(21).
Bb5: 1(16), 2(17), 3(18), 4(19), 5(20), 6(21), 7(22).

The accompanying ETSP Chart shows precise positions for all available equirempered tones on all harmonics, up to C6.

Regarding tbdana's dodgy twelfth harmonic, play the exercise shown in staff notation, using lip-slurs (with the positions and harmonics indicated) and good diaphragm support—starting with an ascending augmented triad followed by an ascending whole-tone scale; then back down again. Followed by attacks on the twelfth harmonic, as shown. Repeat until this all feels secure.

Now plane everything up by one semitone—and continue this process up to F5. Refer to the red lines on the accompanying ETSP Chart.

If any tones seem unreliable, check the mechanics of the instrument: a poorly seated water-key cork; a tiny pin-hole leak (e.g. in a solder joint); an inadvertent solder blob somewhere along the sound-path; &c. Any small disturbance like this could distort a pressure node of a specific note (especially in the very high register)—without affecting other (lower) notes.

Good luck!




.

[ssking2b]

I think bigger horns sound different on the top than the commercial horn I did that recording on. quite frankly, because of my air support I can play notes on my Bass Trombone mouthpiece with my 572 bore horn that reach the same stratospheric heights.
BTW, when I dictated to Siri, double D came out DD, etc.
EN Sharp is. And Chartres 4th were supposed to be High E in sharp 2nd and sharp 4th. Sorry for the confusion.

[ssking2b]

I think in our discussion, commercial players and orchestra classical players are referring to the same notes with different names. I’ll see the charts above, but in my world we don’t use those references. We might say wow. Did you hear the double D flat the Urbie Green played on search and search? That would be D-flat6 C#6, according to your charts. Let’s the Apex of the new notes I played on the video on a really good day. I can probably push that up again about a perfect fourth are use these notes in soloing quite frequently. It’s good stuff for a commercial player to have, but I don’t believe it’s applicable to a classical player.

[tbdana]

Hm. I don't consider myself a legit player, a jazz player, or a commercial player. I just consider myself a trombone player. However, I am old, and I use the terminology I grew up with. Ain't no way I'm using Sesquitone's scientific pitch notation, or common core math for that matter, either. LOL!

[ithinknot]

Regarding notation for slide positions, rather than listing "altered" reference positions (with sharps and flats), which are not very precise, I find it helpful to list the nearest reference position with the harmonic number in parenthesis.

You'll have to forgive me for some "round 3 of covid"-induced grumpiness this week, but how this is more "precise" or helpful is rather beyond me.

Describing Eb5 as 2(11) implies that one is supposed to think, "ah, 'tis second position but, notwithstanding the intonation tendencies of my particular instrument, I recall that the eleventh partial is 49 cents flat relative to 12-ET so I shall reposition the slide accordingly"

... or you could just call it 1.5 as I do, which is where it actually is, or #2nd if that fits your thinking.

Despite the charts, the whole point of this thread arises from the fact that - in the real world on real instruments - not all options work equally well. (If you can model why E5 in 2nd and G5 in #2nd tend to be problematic notes on a wide range of otherwise successful trombone designs, I'd be very interested!)

[baileyman]

Trombone partials numbers are pretty clear. The octaves go 0 1 2 4 8 16 etc just like on any horn. Perhaps piano hegemony should do the same rather than a linear counting of their octaves.

[harrisonreed]

No, I want to see that chart a few more times. Let him post it!

[mbarbier]

you can play much higher that DD and clearly on large bore orchestral equipment. to me it's more a matter of adaptation over time than equipment size. It's not that notes above F5 are particularly hard, it's more that we as a community tell ourselves to stop there more or less, and don't develop a usable sound as a result.

Actually, don't you find the super extreme stuff easier on large bores? (I've never squeaked higher than E6, and it's not something I care about, but it seems easier to get to that point with less resistance from the horn.)

With small horns, you retain the possibility of "classic"/conventional slotting further up the partial series. But in something like the Spahlinger mentioned above, where you've left behind any sort of "does this sound like Buddy Morrow?" paradigm and it's just a question of producing stable extreme pitches at particular dynamics on your wind instrument, the fact that the larger horn gets less involved in the process would seem to be an advantage.

I find it a little easier on a larger tenor (though smaller than normal) than small tenor or on alto. I think it has a lot to do with that being my main horn and just being the most comfortable and familiar spot. I can do it on my smaller and larger horns, but it just doesn't feel as comfortable. Similar with other extended technique stuff I do- just feels like the right amount of room for me. I'd assume it's kinda like shoes. Right one works for the right person. Will plays unbelievably high on pretty large stuff.

I find that chart (and logic) kinda confusing. And I stan the hell outta Helmholtz so I'm probably biased. Up there I basically just think entirely in partials and mostly trying to play things on their lowest partials unless it's prime. Find that sometimes feels a little weird/too specifically coloured to me.

[Trombonic]

Some sloppy high notes..so what?
Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.
In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..

Sorry you're jealous. Get a life. These notes have been making me a really good living for 50 years.

Sorry, I want to apologize my harsh comment. I know that this is quite high, and somehow I don´t like that notes up there. Mine do not sound better!! I wanted not to critizise your high notes but this high notes on trombone or tuba in general. I love them when a lead trumpet player comes with those notes. I believe the trumpet´s high notes sound better for exciting the audience...Sorry again, impressive range!

[Trombonic]

Some sloppy high notes..so what?
Sounds as bad as a trombone sounds when it is played in a range that makes no sense at all.
In the beginning and at the end of a night (or day)..

I'm waiting with great anticipation to see your video and hear your range.

Dude's high range is impressive, and he's doing it right. Let's see what you got!

Okay, here it is. Sorry for the bad quality, just one quick shot because of my neighbors
It is from e to e.




I hope one of the links works!

Regards