Meinlschmidt radial flow valves

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:29 am

Back in the shop today, but won't have too much time to mess with this. I did, however, get the ball rolling on the 2nd valve to show the design.

Post by **Matt K** » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:56 am

Missing out on an opportunity to do a German wrap! Probably for the better since the balance isn’t as good and the people who find them aesthetic seem to be limited to me

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:28 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:56 am Missing out on an opportunity to do a German wrap! Probably for the better since the balance isn’t as good and the people who find them aesthetic seem to be limited to me

Hah, it wouldn't work with the wrap I have planned, but I do like a good German wrap as well! Honestly the wrap selection is so out there that I'm trying to keep the rest pretty straight forward.

spencercarran · Post by **spencercarran** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:57 am

What's the rotor core look like? Trying to visualize how everything is routed, and not immediately seeing how it could be different from the CL2000

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:12 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:57 am What's the rotor core look like? Trying to visualize how everything is routed, and not immediately seeing how it could be different from the CL2000

spencercarran · Post by **spencercarran** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:16 pm

Oh wow, neat! So completely different idea from CL2000, just happens to look similar from the outside. Do you experience any sort of ill effect from the sharp cut-off in airflow when attempt a valve slur?

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:50 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:16 pm Oh wow, neat! So completely different idea from CL2000, just happens to look similar from the outside. Do you experience any sort of ill effect from the sharp cut-off in airflow when attempt a valve slur?

Ya, they actually don't share much DNA with CL valves. Honestly no, they play way better than I'd expect from the design.

Rrova · Post by **Rrova** » Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:25 am

Is the second rotor a Meinlschmidt valve as well?

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:08 pm

Rrova wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:25 am Is the second rotor a Meinlschmidt valve as well?

Yes, open flow. Unfortunately using two radial flows wasn't possible. Manfred is making me two matching caps.

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:01 am

Still waiting on parts, but here's a very rough mock up.

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:21 am

Well this project stalled out a little bit, mostly because I just haven't had the time to spend on it. Fortunately I made a couple of hours available to get some work in. Still a lot to do, but it's starting to take shape (finally).

BZP3I · Post by **BZP3I** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 4:58 am

Hello everyone from Germany. I'm new to trombone chat and came across this topic. At the moment I don‘t have the permission to view the attached files due to missing posts.
I had a 50B with standard valves changed to RadialFlow and could offer one or the other photo…
I need to check how to upload….

Many regards
Martin

Post by **Matt K** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 5:07 am

You should be able to see photos, just not upload. You need three approved posts before you can be granted that permission due to a spambot problem we've had. If you post a link to another file sharing site (Google Drive, Dropbox, etc.) and post a link I can override that. That should be sufficient proof you aren't a bot to me!

BZP3I · Post by **BZP3I** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 9:28 am

To complete my 3rd post here in short my story with the RadialFlow valves:
First of all, I am (only) an amateur player and play the bass trombone in an amateur symphony orchestra in Nürnberg
I had a Bach 50BO and was getting more and more unhappy after about 10 years with the standard rotors as I felt needing very much air and getting little sound. At that time I could try axial valves and did not think becoming a fan of them. Instead I could try the RadialFlow in a tenor built by Christoph Endres in Nürnberg and felt very happy with the performance and decided to get my Bach converted by Christoph Endres. After the reconstruction, the sound better suited the tonal character of a symphony orchestra. I was very satisfied with the result and played the horn for another ten years. I did never since try other valves until 2019, when in Nürberg was a Music trade fair. Could try the Thein bass trombones and decided then to try other brands. Finally I felt most comfortable with an Edwards B454 which I never expected because of the axial valves. I bought the Edwards and sold the Bach. It seems my playing technics have changed over the years. Although being happy with the Bach I do not regret selling it because nearly everything seems to be much easier with the Edwards.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:03 am

That valve section looks awesome. I want that on my Edwards (with harmonic brace intact)

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 5:01 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:03 am That valve section looks awesome. I want that on my Edwards (with harmonic brace intact)

Which one??

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 5:03 pm

Mostly the one right above with the two valves, but also the single open flow near the beginning of this thread.

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:43 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:03 am That valve section looks awesome. I want that on my Edwards (with harmonic brace intact)

Thanks! I'm quite eager to play it myself. With any luck I'll have time to complete it by the end of the month.

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:46 am

Since I despise the typical lever pivots, I designed new ones, and had them printed in bronze. One fitted, one more to go.

BZP3I · Post by **BZP3I** » Thu Jul 13, 2023 4:26 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 5:07 am You should be able to see photos, just not upload. You need three approved posts before you can be granted that permission due to a spambot problem we've had. If you post a link to another file sharing site (Google Drive, Dropbox, etc.) and post a link I can override that. That should be sufficient proof you aren't a bot to me!

Hi Matt, after four posts I still get the info: "You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post." and can't find any search possibility or direct contact admins. Do I have to check the account settings? Or could you please enable this for me?
Many thanks in advance for your support and greetings from Germany
Martin

Post by **Matt K** » Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:04 am

Interesting I thought I had that forwarding to my email. Give me a minute I’ll take a look

Post by **Matt K** » Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:06 am

Should be fixed. You seem to have entered one of the words that puts people into a spammer list in your first few posts. I’ll take a look to see if you posted something and if it’s being a little too aggressive. Sorry about that!

BZP3I · Post by **BZP3I** » Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:32 pm

Hi Matt, thank you very much and please apologize that my posts caused all the trouble. All is fine now.
Attached are 3 photos with the converted Bach I had.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:10 am

BZP3I wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:32 pm Hi Matt, thank you very much and please apologize that my posts caused all the trouble. All is fine now.
Attached are 3 photos with the converted Bach I had.

Oh wow! That's definitely interesting! The routing of the tubing reminds me somewhat of the Shires Dual Trubore valve setup, which has to put the wraps all on the same side due to the design of the valve. How was the balance?

Post by **Matt K** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:40 am

That’s why I’m here!

That’s a really neat looking horn I bet it plays great too. I played Jeff’s valve section at ATW this year and it was unbelievable.

20posaunen · Post by **20posaunen** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:56 am

Hi Martin,
Do you know whether the inside of those rotors had a conical taper (in the straight path while unengaged) to mimic a straight gooseneck?

Also, I believe I asked much earlier in this thread if anyone used these valves as a dependent valve. Anyone have new opinions on that after seeing these horns?
If Meinlschmidt can make one of these valves with straight ports set at 45-degrees to the primary center pathway, it seems like it could work great to place one at the end of the wrap, flowing directly into a diagonal (135-degree angle) “open flow” rotor return port. The tubing could come out approximately in opposite longitudinal directions (parallel to bell), if I’m imagining it correctly. Just thinking that it might provide a nicely uninhibited single-valve register and weigh much less than a trubore…. Thoughts?

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:30 am

BZP3I wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:32 pm Hi Matt, thank you very much and please apologize that my posts caused all the trouble. All is fine now.
Attached are 3 photos with the converted Bach I had.

Looks nice, and I'm sure it plays great. I considered doing independent radial flows, but I wasn't able to have them made with the ports as I wanted them.

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:32 am

20posaunen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:56 am Hi Martin,
Do you know whether the inside of those rotors had a conical taper (in the straight path while unengaged) to mimic a straight gooseneck?

Also, I believe I asked much earlier in this thread if anyone used these valves as a dependent valve. Anyone have new opinions on that after seeing these horns?
If Meinlschmidt can make one of these valves with straight ports set at 45-degrees to the primary center pathway, it seems like it could work great to place one at the end of the wrap, flowing directly into a diagonal (135-degree angle) “open flow” rotor return port. The tubing could come out approximately in opposite longitudinal directions (parallel to bell), if I’m imagining it correctly. Just thinking that it might provide a nicely uninhibited single-valve register and weigh much less than a trubore…. Thoughts?

No taper on the valve, although it could definitely be done since there's 3 paths through the core.

No config for dependent, and unfortunately they are not willing to make any adjustments.

BZP3I · Post by **BZP3I** » Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:24 am

Thanks for your questions and please apologize my delay answering. I sent a mail to Christoph Endres who built the wraps and got the same answer. No conical pipes or valves. He wrote the valves had a bore of 15 mm.

Regarding the balance I don't remember anything disturbing holding the horn. Perhaps the weight of the RadialFlows overcompensated the tubes being on one side of bell section.

Regarding resistance I felt blowing through both valves was rather different compared to open horn or using only one valve. But I got used to this rather quickly and did not think much about it.

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:39 am

Little progress. Hoping to have this wrapped up in the next week.

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 1:29 pm

Not done but playable to mess around. Man oh man does it play well. Big dark sound uninhibited by any valve kinks, and great sound on the valve sides too. Couldn't be happier.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 1:48 pm

That's purty. I want one.

Is it just me or is that mouthpiece like, miles long?

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 2:43 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 1:48 pm That's purty. I want one.

Is it just me or is that mouthpiece like, miles long?

Thanks, it's a keeper for sure. I could be convinced to do one more

.

Lol, it's only .2" longer than standard. All my bass ones are.

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Thu Jul 27, 2023 2:58 am

Pretty much done at the point. In short, I'm extremely pleased. The open horn plays better than I even expected, valves do their job nicely, and the sound I get from it just works. down the road I want to model the spindle on the open flow so I can 3d print one of my short throw stop arms, but it's not a rush.

Bassix · Post by **Bassix** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:38 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:12 pm
spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:57 am What's the rotor core look like? Trying to visualize how everything is routed, and not immediately seeing how it could be different from the CL2000

Do you have a Pic of the Openflow Core too?

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:50 am

I'll pop one open for you later.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:37 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:57 am What's the rotor core look like? Trying to visualize how everything is routed, and not immediately seeing how it could be different from the CL2000

It's a straight hole thru the middle.

) )| |( (

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:30 am

Bassix wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:38 am
LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:12 pm
Do you have a Pic of the Openflow Core too?

There's a pretty small one on the Meinlschmidt website: https://www.jm-gmbh.de/en/rotary-valves/trombone/

hornbuilder · Post by **hornbuilder** » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:04 am

A photo was already posted. I would be interested to see a .594" ball sit in those outer passages...

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:47 am

NVM I'm an idiot, maybe. Which one is which? The valve names are too similar. One should be called "Mean-nick Rotor" and the other should be called "large normal rotor"

ithinknot · Post by **ithinknot** » Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:58 am

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:04 am A photo was already posted. I would be interested to see a .594" ball sit in those outer passages...

That's the Radial Flow.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:47 am NVM I'm an idiot, maybe. Which one is which? The valve names are too similar. One should be called "Mean-nick Rotor" and the other should be called "large normal rotor"

Radial Flow = three passage / Minick / Paine 1848

Openflow = two passage / post-Greenhoe large essentially normal rotor

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:00 am

Oh cool, someone invented it even that far back!

Bassix · Post by **Bassix** » Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:31 am

I saw the Pic from the radial Flow.
I am Interesses in a Pic from the Open Flow, since the Pic on the jm Website is not very good…

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:55 am

Bassix wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:31 am I saw the Pic from the radial Flow.
I am Interesses in a Pic from the Open Flow, since the Pic on the jm Website is not very good…

What exactly are you looking to see from the Meinlschmidt website that you can't see in the pictures? They are small but you can see the overall shape. They are similar to the Greenhoe valve in design.

You can see some bigger pictures here, which I found using a google search: viewtopic.php?p=167607#p167607

Bassix · Post by **Bassix** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 3:08 pm

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:55 am
Bassix wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:31 am I saw the Pic from the radial Flow.
I am Interesses in a Pic from the Open Flow, since the Pic on the jm Website is not very good…
What exactly are you looking to see from the Meinlschmidt website that you can't see in the pictures? They are small but you can see the overall shape. They are similar to the Greenhoe valve in design.

You can see some bigger pictures here, which I found using a google search: viewtopic.php?p=167607#p167607

Thank you

20posaunen · Post by **20posaunen** » Tue Oct 03, 2023 11:05 am

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:04 am A photo was already posted. I would be interested to see a .594" ball sit in those outer passages...

Agreed. Can anyone test that? Jeff?
I’m guessing, based on the feedback above (= that the engaged and open sides feel different to play), that the path doesn’t allow a .594” ball to pass through… But, we need a test!

I still posture that, if the rotor’s side ports were designed in a way that didn’t disturb the sound path when/while engaged, then this type of valve could make an excellent dependent valve.
At least with this design concept, there’s potential for only the mass, not the tube dimensions, to be altered when adding it into an original F wrap as a dependent rotor. If you want the extra notes of a double-valve system without altering the existing tone, response, and function substantially… 60H?

Or, is there science saying that there’s no benefit to the straight path, compared to inserting a full-bore modern rotor?