Musical Entropy

[hyperbolica]

I'm still perpetually learning while leading and trying to coach a brass quintet, with various levels of success.

I don't think I've ever been in a small group that was perfectly immune from slowing down on certain tunes. It seems we have a certain pattern that we tend to fall into, and everything eventually gravitates toward 80 bpm, regardless of where it starts. Slight exaggeration, but you've probably been there and you know what I'm talking about.

I even have a tuba player who plays slow when he plays with others or is sight reading, but plays fast when he plays alone and he knows the music.

I know the "really loud metronome" thing. That helps, but it only helps while using it. As soon as it goes away, we fall right back into that old groove 80 bpm.

What do you all do to get out front of the musical entropy problem that has been most successful? I'm talking about mature (and in some cases professional) musicians, not just rank students. Are there any visualization or concentration tricks you can use to keep focusing on tempo in addition to reading printed music, intonation, volume, style, etc, etc, etc...

[harrisonreed]

There was a RadioLab about this one. Even the best conductors have trouble with it, and they thought maybe it has to do with biological factors. There is literally a clock inside us and it's more like 90bpm.

[Doug Elliott]

You need at least one player with good time who refuses to slow down and forces everybody else to keep the tempo. It helps if it's the one on the bottom part, that's often where the slowdown happens.

I sometimes play with a band where the drummer has a metronome in his ear, and the whole band has to be with him.

It can help a lot to rewrite parts with good phrasing and note lengths, so there's more implied rhythm and less tendency to drag. For example, I change a lot of whole notes to a dotted half at the end of a phrase so the next phrase is more likely to start on time. And time to breathe without slowing down to do it.

[ithinknot]

Everyone has to take responsibility for time, all of the time. That's why the loud metronome doesn't fix it - it just makes the shared abdication of responsibility official.

But if people aren't used to that feeling, they need to experience it from the deep end... "this time, we're all following Jim", next time someone else. Or each take turns dropping out and conducting instead of playing. But everyone has to fully buy in, and really follow the leader/conductor for better or worse. Turns out, that's the level of attention required from everyone all the time.

It's more understandable when slow things risk wallowing and fast risk running away, but drifting towards "average" suggests a general lack of engagement with a specific style or character.

[EDIT: and very much what Doug says about tidying up parts - especially in a BQ context where commercial arrangements aren't universally the work of, errr, our best people]

[Kbiggs]

There’s an app called Time Guru that allows you to set the time and tempo, and randomize the clicks. So you might hear 1 x 3 4 | x 2 x 4 | etc. There’s a setting for how randomly the beats sound.

I should use it more often…

[hyperbolica]

I have taken a more active approach in rewriting parts. I try to make sure that there is no time when everyone is just holding a long note unless there is a direct cue. Somebody always gets a pulse, either quarter notes or dotted quarter eighth pattern. Example,
https://musescore.com/user/30921101/scores/10570024
The tuba part was whole notes at the beginning and i changed it to pulse.

A tune like Bolero has a built in metronome, it's almost impossible to drag Bolero.
https://musescore.com/user/30921101/scores/11040739

We do have a horn player who has good time, but he's not very assertive. Maybe I need to push him to push the rest of us. The thing is you have to notice it when the change has only been small, not wait until it's a big difference.

Trombone quartet worked through Georgia On My Mind, which is really rubato. We learned to do that after playing it 20 times and everybody understanding whats going on. We tried to play Girl With The Flaxen Hair, and one of us had to conduct until we got the hang of it, so- same issue as Georgia.

When people are not familiar with the music, hesitation slows us down hard, so when we're reading new tunes, I often intentionally start slow and build to performance speed with successive runs. That seems to help.

Also I wonder if memorization has any effect on dragging. Anyone try that?

[AndrewMeronek]

It can help a lot to rewrite parts with good phrasing and note lengths, so there's more implied rhythm and less tendency to drag. For example, I change a lot of whole notes to a dotted half at the end of a phrase so the next phrase is more likely to start on time. And time to breathe without slowing down to do it.

That's a great idea. Too much musical convention is about badly handled note lengths. That tied-eighth note into the next bar from long notes is kind of a pet peeve of mine. One of many.

Another thing you can do is to break a piece up into primary sections of 5-10 seconds of playing and to go through those with a metronome, with the idea that when the tempo fluctuates (and it always does) you have landmarks where everyone knows what the tempo/feel should be. Hit a landmark, and correct to that tempo for that point which everyone knows.

[AndrewMeronek]

When people are not familiar with the music, hesitation slows us down hard, so when we're reading new tunes, I often intentionally start slow and build to performance speed with successive runs. That seems to help.

I am not a fan of this approach. If you start off slow when reading/learning a tune, that's what you learn: slow.

[ithinknot]

When people are not familiar with the music, hesitation slows us down hard, so when we're reading new tunes, I often intentionally start slow and build to performance speed with successive runs. That seems to help.

I am not a fan of this approach. If you start off slow when reading/learning a tune, that's what you learn: slow.

Nah, you need to be able to do both:

Start slow, without errors, and increase tempo
Start at tempo, without hesitation or getting put off by errors, and increase accuracy

If you find that "learning slow" makes it hard to alter the tempo later, you're rooting your sense of time (and/or your musical understanding of the piece) in the wrong place. It needs to remain an independent variable, fully under your control.

(To be clear, I'm talking about ensemble/repertoire contexts. Obviously for individual technical challenges the two approaches aren't interchangeable; perfectly single tonguing a fast passage at quarter speed won't eventually get it up to tempo, etc.)

[AndrewMeronek]

Nah, you need to be able to do both:

Start slow, without errors, and increase tempo
Start at tempo, without hesitation or getting put off by errors, and increase accuracy

If you find that "learning slow" makes it hard to alter the tempo later, you're rooting your sense of time (and/or your musical understanding of the piece) in the wrong place. It needs to remain an independent variable, fully under your control.

(To be clear, I'm talking about ensemble/repertoire contexts. Obviously for individual technical challenges the two approaches aren't interchangeable; perfectly single tonguing a fast passage at quarter speed won't eventually get it up to tempo, etc.)

Starting slow and speeding up is a pretty traditional way of rehearsing, but in my experience that leads to permanent sluggish tempos much more prevalently than starting off fast leads to permanent errors. Maybe the "start slow" practice has to do with amateur musicians who need a bit of practice on a piece just to understand how to play the licks, but even for amateurs, from my experience, this issue still holds true. I think it's much better to sight-read at tempo, maybe 2nd read also, and then to slow down problem areas only for rehearsing with those folks who need the reps.

[harrisonreed]

It depends. For very difficult solo rep, sure, start slow and get the technique down. For BQ or other chamber music? I think it's better to play close to the desired tempo from the getgo to get the "feel" of the music down. That's more important to lock in, and good musicians won't be locking in minor errors. They might lock in wonky tempos though.

[ithinknot]

I think it's much better to sight-read at tempo, maybe 2nd read also, and then to slow down problem areas only for rehearsing with those folks who need the reps.

Agreed - unless it's something incredibly complex with significant "score deciphering" issues, it's always best to sight read unselfconsciously at (or close to) tempo.

I'm just saying that if either approach consistently seems to be "asking for trouble", there's a broader problem - either with internal time discipline, or with following a director/other player(s) - that needs to be addressed.

[hyperbolica]

This group has a range of talent, but no one is a real monster perfect reader. 3 of us are pretty good, and a couple need a couple times through and maybe some markups to understand what should be going on. We all benefit from a little time to get familiar with the notes. Once we practice something up to speed, we don't go back to the slower tempo unless there's a problem that develops and needs to be fixed.

I'm going to try some memorization for a simple tune and see if that helps the dragging issue. The "landmarks" idea sounds promising as well. I know there are certain things that stick out, like 120 is march tempo, and some songs just have a certain groove that works best, which you can probably use as a reference for other songs.

[Doug Elliott]

You can really get accustomed to playing at a varying tempo to the point where you think it's steady but it's not.

If you can get every member to practice their own part with a metronome, just to become used to playing at a steady tempo, I suspect the group tempo will be a lot easier to manage.

[MTbassbone]

There’s an app called Time Guru that allows you to set the time and tempo, and randomize the clicks. So you might hear 1 x 3 4 | x 2 x 4 | etc. There’s a setting for how randomly the beats sound.

I should use it more often…

Yes, this is a great tool and I believe the TuneUp or Tonal Energy has a similar function. It definitely highlights the flaws in tempo.

[BrassedOn]

Play a section together and record it.

Immediately after, Listen back together

If doubt, sync a metronome with the start of the recording. And listen.

Repeat

You don’t have to point fingers or discuss between recording and listening and recording….silence is better. Recording does not lie. All are guilty. Someone is more guilty. And that will be evident.

I like to do this with later section of the piece rather than the intro, for maintaining the target tempo to the end.

[timothy42b]

What kind of tempo do you use during practice? Some people do more gig playing than practice, but a lot of us are the other way around. If we always play what is comfortable, we ingrain that entropic 80 bpm tempo, or whatever it is for us personally.

Maybe we should always do exercises to a metronome, and vary it from day to day. Mr. Pollard I think recommended doing daily maintenance with a tuner and a metronome. I think there is some potential there.

[hyperbolica]

Without getting into too many personal issues, we have one player who consistently holds us back, and we've had difficulty finding a replacement. Another is ok once he knows the tune. One or two have performance anxiety issues. The lead trumpet player and I try to keep things going, but we're not perfect ourselves. We're still a new-ish group in an area without a lot of brass work, so we definitely rehearse more than perform.

I've tried some of the basics, and y'all have helped with some additional ideas. Always open to more.

[norbie2018]

You can really get accustomed to playing at a varying tempo to the point where you think it's steady but it's not.

If you can get every member to practice their own part with a metronome, just to become used to playing at a steady tempo, I suspect the group tempo will be a lot easier to manage.

This. I have found it exceedingly difficult to try and improve time in a group setting. Individuals must work with a metronome to improve and then bring that improved time to the group. Some advocate foot tapping, others are against it. I find it effective if it is coordinated with the metronome.

[tbdana]

I don't think you find this so much with excellent professional players. Not to say never, but not as a rule. All musicians need to be rock solid in pitch, volume and time. If you can master playing in tune and with appropriate dynamics, you can master time as well.

Of course, a lot of slowing down has to do with not sight reading well enough for the piece or not having the chops to play everything in the piece. And for that, I repeat some tough love advice I once heard: "If you can play it, then play it. If you can't, then go home and practice and let someone who can play it have the chair."

[hyperbolica]

I don't think you find this so much with excellent professional players. Not to say never, but not as a rule.

.

Yeah, obviously. Good time is one of the rungs of the ladder to musical success. I'm not managing the second coming of Empire Brass, here. This group is put together from second-string players in a brass music backwater. I'm doing my best with the skills of the people I can round up.

Of course, a lot of slowing down has to do with not sight reading well enough

Right, general lack of confidence and prioritizing notes over time (which obviously doesn't work when you play with others). I'm trying to help us along as a group. I would make personnel changes if I had better options.

"If you can play it, then play it. If you can't, then go home and practice and let someone who can play it have the chair."

I'd be pretty lonely if I went around saying that. I have to try to raise up a couple hard cases, not tear them down.

[Cmillar]

I always cringe when I hear another musician say that they were told to never tap their foot while performing in public.

Many people were told by their band directors, youth orchestra conductors, etc. to 'sit straight, don't tap your foot' and just play the music.

That's a sure way to stifle innate musicianship, let alone hurt any sense of innate rhythm for any musician.

If there is no 'kinetic relationship' to music for a performer, then the music suffers. Sense of tempo/rhythm suffers.

Just letting musicians have the freedom to tap their toes would solve a lot of problems. If you're recording, wear socks or sneakers. Stand on a rug. If sitting in a group, tap your heel, whatever works.

Every musician should feel like a dancer. Get the rhythm in the bones. Keep the internal tempo happening!

Plus...does anyone truly think an audience wants to look at a bunch of stiff musicians sitting perfectly still time after time after time?

Ever wonder why rock/pop music is more universally appealing to most people in the world?

Sure, as brass players we have to control our physical relationship to the instrument in order to play properly. Some brass players need to move while playing, some don't like to. We have our technique to think about all the time....but, so do musicians like Hillary Hahn, Christian Lindberg, Yo-Yo Ma, etc. etc. They manage to play their instruments at the highest possible technical levels and highest levels of musicianship at the same time. They all move. Hillary Hahn is like a dancer. Lindberg does whatever is needed to do what he does. So does Dave Taylor.

If someone is tapping their foot or whatever, let them!

I say...never tell a young person to not tap their foot or put strange thoughts in their minds that they have to play like stiff robots. They might quit or grow up to resent music. I've seen it in others.

Every musician should take rhythm lessons or dance lessons. The best do! Hillary Hahn does!

[Cmillar]

The master, Lindberg, at work with a metronome:

[Bach5G]

Thanx to Cam for the Lindberg link. Here’s more:

[JohnL]

"If you can play it, then play it. If you can't, then go home and practice and let someone who can play it have the chair."

I'd be pretty lonely if I went around saying that. I have to try to raise up a couple hard cases, not tear them down.

That approach works well if you've got someone else lined up who wants the chair. Otherwise? Not so much. What are you going to do if they say "OK, they're welcome to it" and pack up their horn?

[VJOFan]

I’ve posted this idea in past threads, but it seems appropriate to do so again.

One can get a group to feel time together in a matter of minutes.

1. Count out loud together in 4/4 at about 60 bpm. (Someone should be nominated leader to make this work. You’ll see why soon.)
2. When the counting is in synch the “leader” raises a hand like a conductor and turns the hand palm down. That indicates that the counting should become silent. No head bobbing or foot tapping for this exercise. (Foot tapping together can be used to establish a group sense of time if desired but should stoop in the next steps.)
3. The leader will turn the palm up at the beginning of the next bar to see if everyone says “one” together.
4. The leader then goes back and forth between palm down and palm up at increasingly longer and more random intervals.

The group will find a steady shared pulse after a couple of these trials.

This is a band director trick I learned at a workshop. I used it with my groups and as an audience participation activity to show school groups what musicians do while they play. It’s very cool.

The kicker was when I got the chance to guest conduct a group a while back with a band that, if you’re familiar with this sound, was “always following the conductor”, so sounded like everyone was always waiting for someone else to play first. They were sluggish sounding! When we finished working together the group played with a sense of pulse and forward drive they had never had before. All I had done was given them the responsibility (and confidence) for keeping their own time. This little exercise of internalizing and verifying a group pulse is golden.