Adding second valve to Conn 60h

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:34 am

Dear all,

I just received a nice Conn 60h from Daniel/swisstbone.

It does play really nicely and is a somewhat similar, but maybe a bit lighter playing alternative to my Greenhoe.
I am pretty sure I will keep it and it's quite possible that I will keep it as it is. Valve and slide work fine.
For me it does ask for a little smaller mouthpiece than my Greenhoe which could be due to modern mouthpieces not being the perfect fit for the receiver. I am playing the MST STUDIO R2D N on the Greenhoe, the R2 N which is just a bit shallower seems to be just right for the Conn. I do have a Remington bass mouthpiece which I could try, but it's not really the right size for me.

So... If I would want to add a second valve to it:
- Which valve would you choose? One that's as similar as possible to the original valve/very traditional rotary valve? Or a more modern rotary such as maybe the instrument innovation or Meinlschmidt etc.? I would tend to choose one that is physically light as this could partly determine the character of the instrument.
- Would you rather do a modular/drop-in valve which would replace the valve tuning slide or do a full conversion?
- What would be the rough cost to be expected?

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 10:24 am

IMHO, the placement of the valve tuning slide on the 60H is not exactly ideal for a slot-in valve. It's only slightly better than the traditional wrap on the TR185 Kleinhammer Models.That loooong linkage always seems like it would be a pain.

If it was me and I really wanted a second valve, I'd pretty much turn it into a 62H, and would use the lightest most open valve I could find. I would also consider replacing the valve on the horn, if one was available that could give an improvement while not requiring alteration to the J bend or receiver to fit. So many possibilities.

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:23 pm

Yes, that's a good point. I also wouldn't want to have the linkage be in the way, instable etc.

it's quite likely that I would just leave it as it is.

One valve that I would hypothetically consider is the Laetzsch carbon valve.

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:16 pm

A plug in valve would be so much harder to do. These lend themselves perfectly to putting another valve right next to the existing one, since that's what Conn did for 2 valve basses. I guess a modern valve would work, but why not just get a used Conn valve? The blow is only going to be as good as it is passing through the first valve anyway. You wouldn't have to change anything that's already on there other than cutting a small section out of the wrap.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:21 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:16 pm A plug in valve would be so much harder to do. These lend themselves perfectly to putting another valve right next to the existing one, since that's what Conn did for 2 valve basses. I guess a modern valve would work, but why not just get a used Conn valve? The blow is only going to be as good as it is passing through the first valve anyway. You wouldn't have to change anything that's already on there other than cutting a small section out of the wrap.

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:52 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:16 pm A plug in valve would be so much harder to do. These lend themselves perfectly to putting another valve right next to the existing one, since that's what Conn did for 2 valve basses. I guess a modern valve would work, but why not just get a used Conn valve? The blow is only going to be as good as it is passing through the first valve anyway. You wouldn't have to change anything that's already on there other than cutting a small section out of the wrap.

Thanks, also makes sense!
A used Conn valve could be a good idea, but might be not so easy to find (in Germany) in good condition. But probably not too hard to find something very similar in size.

meine · Post by **meine** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 3:09 pm

Hello Markus,

I had a 60H too once and wanted to add a second valve. I didn‘t in order to let it as original as possible. Anyway, if you‘re looking for a real good valve I can recomend the CAIDEX. A small cased valve which will fit the 60H easily and so an easy blow! I would replace the orginal valve and a second one. Could be a great light double bass

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 4:22 pm

MStarke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:52 pm
A used Conn valve could be a good idea, but might be not so easy to find (in Germany) in good condition. But probably not too hard to find something very similar in size.

Oh, good point. New valve, then.

Post by **blast** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:47 pm

I would be cautious about modern valves on a 60H. A good number of instruments have been wrecked by aftermarket valves. That said, the finest Conn 60H bass I've blown is an old 60H rebuilt by Matthew Walker with his own dependent rotors. I've built a couple of slot in valves that have worked very well and still allows the trombone to be used as a single when preferred. I'm just building up an old 60H into a 62H with all Elkhart parts...wait and see time.
I could supply an Elkhart rotor to you, but it would have the F valve tube configuration if you know what I mean. Conn second valves have a different tube exit pattern.

hornbuilder · Post by **hornbuilder** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 7:13 pm

Here are a couple of photos of one 60H that I converted to double M&W rotors. (I think this is the one you played, Chris?)

CalgaryTbone · Post by **CalgaryTbone** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:37 pm

That is just beautiful!

JS

Post by **blast** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:43 am

Plays as good as it looks !!! It was no more than average before the work. Great job !!!

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:00 am

All, thanks for the ideas!

Matt, great pictures and good-looking horn as always!

Chris, really appreciate your offer. However as you also indicated the f valve would certainly need at least some adaption.
Conclusion seems to be to stay as close to the original rotor as possible OR go for a complete conversion. As I already have a really nice Greenhoe and want to keep as much original character to this horn, I would probably stay with the smaller version IF I do anything to it.

Post by **blast** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:22 am

I agree. The stock 60H is one of the best basses out there....Still.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:01 pm

If I was doing something like this on "cost is no object" basis, I would be tempted to keep the original valve and have a new wrap built that included a modern valve, probably something like a Tru-Bore. My goal would be to have the open horn and the F-attachment feel as close to how they feel now, but with the added utility of a second valve.

Just don't ask me to figure out the mechanics of the linkage.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:15 pm

JohnL wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:01 pm If I was doing something like this on "cost is no object" basis, I would be tempted to keep the original valve and have a new wrap built that included a modern valve, probably something like a Tru-Bore. My goal would be to have the open horn and the F-attachment feel as close to how they feel now, but with the added utility of a second valve.

Just don't ask me to figure out the mechanics of the linkage.

Tru-bore?

LIBrassCo · Post by **LIBrassCo** » Sat Jul 01, 2023 1:36 am

I'm about to do one with independent Meinlschmidt Open Flows. It's not a terribly difficult project, at least not any different than any other valve section I've built. As for cost, that will widely vary. At present I charge $4950 to build a full bass valveset from scratch.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Sat Jul 01, 2023 6:45 am

For a Conn project independent would not be the 1st choice for me. What makes these Conns and other vintage instruments what they are is how they were built in the first place. Valves, J bend, and everything else. If you want that Conn sound play a Conn as it was intended. I believe Blast when he says that Matthew Walker's conversion is fantastic. Matthew played a Conn for years and I'm guessing he knows what to do to make it right. Adding a Shires valve section to an Elkhart Conn does not work. I've played and heard several. The vintage sound is just not there. Others will disagree but to my ears, and to me that's what matters, it doesn't work.

Post by **blast** » Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:29 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 6:45 am For a Conn project independent would not be the 1st choice for me. What makes these Conns and other vintage instruments what they are is how they were built in the first place. Valves, J bend, and everything else. If you want that Conn sound play a Conn as it was intended. I believe Blast when he says that Matthew Walker's conversion is fantastic. Matthew played a Conn for years and I'm guessing he knows what to do to make it right. Adding a Shires valve section to an Elkhart Conn does not work. I've played and heard several. The vintage sound is just not there. Others will disagree but to my ears, and to me that's what matters, it doesn't work.

You are so right Bill. I've owned an independent 60H and it lost something. I've put Shires dependent valves on a 70H and it lost even more ! You can tweak an Elkhart if you know what to do...I've improved a few but Matthew is a country mile ahead of my efforts in every way. It's often not about throwing some new bits on, but sorting the original build...distressing and moving things a tiny bit, but one things for sure, a good Elkhart bass I'll NEVER mess with.

RustBeltBass · Post by **RustBeltBass** » Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:09 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:16 pm A plug in valve would be so much harder to do. These lend themselves perfectly to putting another valve right next to the existing one, since that's what Conn did for 2 valve basses. I guess a modern valve would work, but why not just get a used Conn valve? The blow is only going to be as good as it is passing through the first valve anyway. You wouldn't have to change anything that's already on there other than cutting a small section out of the wrap.

This. I think you have three ways to go.

1.Keep as is.
2. See above. Find a used Conn valve. There is a store in Hamburg worth checking out for that.
3. Go for it and have a new valve section installed. In that case I would trust either MW or Lätzsch to do a good job. I do however think that there is always a chance it might change the way the instrument plays, regardless of how great the installation may have been.

CalgaryTbone · Post by **CalgaryTbone** » Sat Jul 01, 2023 9:39 pm

My Bass Trombone colleague at work just had an old 62H that was a bit abused and not playing well overhauled at the Brass Ark. Still dependent valves, but they are Instrument Innovations with an open wrap. Great sounding commercial horn now, and the horn wasn't really usable before the work. Noah can probably tell me who did the work - I don't recall at this point. The horn looks great too!

Jim Scott

slipmo · Post by **slipmo** » Sun Jul 02, 2023 1:21 am

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 9:39 pm My Bass Trombone colleague at work just had an old 62H that was a bit abused and not playing well overhauled at the Brass Ark. Still dependent valves, but they are Instrument Innovations with an open wrap. Great sounding commercial horn now, and the horn wasn't really usable before the work. Noah can probably tell me who did the work - I don't recall at this point. The horn looks great too!

Jim Scott

My collaborator, Don Sawday did this restoration/conversion. It was one of the most extensive refurbs he's ever done, but very happy with the results!

Tbarh · Post by **Tbarh** » Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:46 am

BTW, isnt the bore through the valve section bigger in a Conn..(‘605 vs the usual ‘594)..Doesnt that rule out a lot of alternatives ?

ithinknot · Post by **ithinknot** » Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:49 am

Tbarh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:46 am BTW, isnt the bore through the valve section bigger in a Conn..(‘605 vs the usual ‘594)..Doesnt that rule out a lot of alternatives ?

no (maybe some early horns??) though thicker walled tubing than some others

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Sun Jul 02, 2023 8:16 am

Is the J-bend a continuous taper throughout? If so that alone would make a poor candidate for an independent conversion, as you have to lose part of that taper.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:19 am

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:49 am
Tbarh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:46 am BTW, isnt the bore through the valve section bigger in a Conn..(‘605 vs the usual ‘594)..Doesnt that rule out a lot of alternatives ?
no (maybe some early horns??) though thicker walled tubing than some others

It is my understanding that the Elkhart 62H tubing bore is .595. Valve bore size has to match the tubing or has to be incredibly close. If you put a large valve on smaller tubing, it would just create turbulence and will back up.

hornbuilder · Post by **hornbuilder** » Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:37 am

Some of the older 70H Fuchs horns had larger valve section tubing. Don't know if they all did, or just some.

Tbarh · Post by **Tbarh** » Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:15 am

I remember a flyer from when the 110,111,112H was introduced that stated ‘605 bore in the valve ..That does not mean that the later non-Minnick designs have This bore ofcourse…Not sure about the 73H either .. The Fuchs model though is huge !!

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:35 am

Interesting discussion.

After having played some more on the 60h, I am strongly leaning towards keeping it as it is.
It's a great resonant instrument with such a nice sound. Considerably lighter in physical feel and also response than my Greenhoe. A real fun instrument and really nice addition to my little stable.
And there are certainly more opportunities where it totally works and I don't need a second valve than I originally thought.
I just wouldn't bring it to any sight-reading situations e.g. in a bigband. But for many brass/trombone ensemble and orchestra situations it's totally fine.

20posaunen · Post by **20posaunen** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 9:20 am

When replacing the original rotor of a Conn 60H with a modern .594 bore/port rotor, the J-bend is usually trimmed up to where it matches the valve bore, correct?
Assuming so, can someone who’s had one apart tell me exactly how much length from the J-bend tube was removed, and what was the original inner diameter at the end of the J-bend?
Also, Matthew, do you somehow reintegrate that same taper (that was removed after the valve), perhaps in the tubing entering the valve?

I’ve wondered if Conn intentionally put that reduction in diameter after the valve - perhaps to correct the intonation, such as compensating for the inner/outer slide bore difference, or altering the intonation of a specific partial? Did trimming the small end of the J-bend change the intonation/slotting feel on anyone’s 60H/62H conversions?

I own two 60Hs (and currently a Kanstul 1662) and have continuously debated the idea of retrofitting premium modern dependent valves into one of them to make it more useful/versatile to me (enough to actually use it on gigs). Thus far, I’ve been too afraid of altering the original J-bends…

Julian · Post by **Julian** » Sun Mar 17, 2024 8:35 pm

I can't contribute with knowledge, only with experience in two specific cases:

1) My 60h came with an independent conversion (actually a Bach-section); overall absolutely wonderful playing and sounding basstrombone. Since I found the valve-register being a little tricky to center and make it vibrate freely I decided to try with Conn valves.
Lätzsch did an awesome Job, installing 2 Elkhart-Era Conn valves (independant, since the J-bend had been cut by the previous owner). Result: Valve register plays absolutely wonderful, too.
Regarding the tubing: since I was absolutely short economically being a student back then (and without any knowledge about wrap-tubing-diameters) I asked him to use parts of the Bach-Valvesection for the wraps. It works on this conversion.

2) The 60h of my first teacher has been converted to independent setup, too. Original Conn-valves, german-style wrap )don't know the reason for that), additional brace connecting the tis-outers to guarantee slide-alignment. It's one of the best basstrombones I've tried (just right after his Minick)

The thing is: I didn't have the chance to know how they played and sounded before the independent conversion. They might have been even better horns before. Still they are exceptional basstrombones that made experienced players get themselves an Elkhart 62h.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:51 am

Julian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 8:35 pm I can't contribute with knowledge, only with experience in two specific cases:

1) My 60h came with an independent conversion (actually a Bach-section); overall absolutely wonderful playing and sounding basstrombone. Since I found the valve-register being a little tricky to center and make it vibrate freely I decided to try with Conn valves.
Lätzsch did an awesome Job, installing 2 Elkhart-Era Conn valves (independant, since the J-bend had been cut by the previous owner). Result: Valve register plays absolutely wonderful, too.
Regarding the tubing: since I was absolutely short economically being a student back then (and without any knowledge about wrap-tubing-diameters) I asked him to use parts of the Bach-Valvesection for the wraps. It works on this conversion.

2) The 60h of my first teacher has been converted to independent setup, too. Original Conn-valves, german-style wrap )don't know the reason for that), additional brace connecting the tis-outers to guarantee slide-alignment. It's one of the best basstrombones I've tried (just right after his Minick)

The thing is: I didn't have the chance to know how they played and sounded before the independent conversion. They might have been even better horns before. Still they are exceptional basstrombones that made experienced players get themselves an Elkhart 62h.

Care to share any pictures of your 60H conversion?

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:52 am

It's a bit funny that there was a new contribution here today:
I really enjoyed playing the 60h in its original state, but over time realized that I wouldn't play it as much as it should be played. So recently I sent it off to a trusted instrument builder who will a) build a new dependent valve section with two new, but traditional size rotors in a Minick-style valve layout, b) do some general minor repair work and c) build a new and more stable tuning mechanism.

Of course this is a bit of a gamble, but I am pretty sure it will be much more universally useable for me afterwards.

Will post some pictures and maybe share some more details on the rebuild once I got it back!

Julian · Post by **Julian** » Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:10 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:51 am Care to share any pictures of your 60H conversion?

Sure, as soon as I get to the rehearsal room I shoot some.
Via Mail is fine?
Or someone else is interested in detailed pics on this?

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:54 am

Julian wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:10 am
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:51 am Care to share any pictures of your 60H conversion?
Sure, as soon as I get to the rehearsal room I shoot some.
Via Mail is fine?
Or someone else is interested in detailed pics on this?

You should post them here

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:10 am

Today I got my 60h back!

It has been at Meisterinstrumente Kroning in Chemnitz for a few weeks.
They built a new "Minick-style" dependent valve section with two conventional Meinlschmidt rotors, most tubing in gold brass, delaquered the bell section and took out a few dents, built a new TIS mechanism and improved slide action quite a bit.

My first impression is that the results are great. obviously I cannot do a direct comparison with how it felt before the rebuild, but it seems to play great. I am for now very happy with it.

At some point I might do a little comparison between this trombone, my TIS Greenhoe and my 112h/62h hybrid.

It seems like I can very much recommend the work they do at Kroning.

SwissTbone · Post by **SwissTbone** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:16 am

Looks cool! You'll use that setup a lot, I'm sure!

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:41 pm

I think so as well! The original instrument was really fun to play, but in the end not enough universally usable for me.

Really looking forward to play it more the next days and hopefully take it to its first rehearsals in the next weeks!

Will also do some back and forth playing with the other basses to better understand how they compare. In the end they are all relatively close, but still not the same.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:53 pm

Beautiful Instrument!!! Enjoy Markus!

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:59 pm

Very nice. Much drool!

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:43 pm

Interesting that, with all this work, you apparently left untouched the original (soldered) Conn leadpipe.
You must have liked it. (Does it have a "Remington" taper?) What is your preferred mouthpiece?

MStarke · Post by **MStarke** » Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:02 am

Yes, I kept the leadpipe original/Remington taper. Didn't change it as I assume that the leadpipe is substantial to its playing characteristics. also the inner slides are quite good and I didn't want to risk them being destroyed when pulling the leadpipe.

I had two bass mouthpieces made specifically with a Remington shank, one time versions of MST STUDIO R2 N and R2D N.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:05 am

MStarke wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:02 am Yes, I kept the leadpipe original/Remington taper. Didn't change it as I assume that the leadpipe is substantial to its playing characteristics. also the inner slides are quite good and I didn't want to risk them being destroyed when pulling the leadpipe.

I had two bass mouthpieces made specifically with a Remington shank, one time versions of MST STUDIO R2 N and R2D N.

I'm quite comfortable with the original lead pipe in my 1969 Elkhart Conn 71H. My mouthpieces are either a Connstellation 3B or a Doug Elliott setup (MB 109 Rim, MB J Cup, J8 [Conn] Shank).

BoNeLife · Post by **BoNeLife** » Sat May 11, 2024 1:21 pm

Hello, I’ve added several modern valves to old horns. Whatever you do, don’t alter the J bend. Cutting that part ruins the old 60/62

20posaunen · Post by **20posaunen** » Sat May 11, 2024 2:24 pm

BoNeLife wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 1:21 pm Hello, I’ve added several modern valves to old horns. Whatever you do, don’t alter the J bend. Cutting that part ruins the old 60/62

So, when you add a modern valve, do you leave a step after the valve that reduces to the smaller diameter of the J-bend, rather than trim the small end the J-Bend to match the larger diameter of the valve’s output exactly?

hornbuilder · Post by **hornbuilder** » Sat May 11, 2024 2:55 pm

The Conn 6x J bend was designed to be used on that design. It starts at .594" where it connects to the valve knuckle, and expands from there. The problem with most valves, is they occupy more tube length than the factory parts, particularly if you want 2 inline valves. Simply cutting the J bend gives an step from .594 (at the valve knuckle) to whatever the J bend is at the point it is cut (which is quite a bit larger at that point) That is why I designed/made specific tapered mandrels to suit both single/dependent and independent bass valve setups, with the taper designed to fit its own application.

20posaunen · Post by **20posaunen** » Sat May 11, 2024 10:40 pm

Thank you for that clarification, Matthew!