Handslide length

[GabrielRice]

I'd love to hear people's experiences comparing handslides of different lengths.

My Shires bass trombone slides are a little shorter overall than my Bach slides, and I recently took a look at a Greenhoe that is shorter still. It seems Edwards made the newer B502 slides a bit longer than their other options. On my Shires set-ups I do not have a fully usable 7th position (I play first position off the bumper). On my Bach I do.

I know that Shires has made longer handslides available as a custom option, and I know some players (Jim Nova, for example) who swear by them, but I can't recall doing an all-else-equal comparison when I was there.

[Burgerbob]

Lucky for you, I have too many slides and I have them on hangers.

Here we have (L-R) Edwards, Bach, Bach, Shires:



Here we have (L-R) strange reverse slide, Edwards, Shires, Bach, Bach. Strangely the Edwards and Shires here are very similar lengths.



I like shorter slides on basses because it gives me more tuning room on Bach bell sections- my monster bass is cut down a significant amount and (at last testing) too long to play up to pitch with a 50 slide. I need to check again, though, because this nickel 50 is calling my name. Shires does seem like a nice middle ground.

On some Edwards that are worn out, 7th position is not even close to existing due to the leaking and short design. I had one like this for a while.

[Thrawn22]

Comparing all of my different Conn model slides, I'm still confused as to why the 78H slides are so long and wide? They're almost 2 inches longer than my 8H/88H slides and almost as long as my 71H slide.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I love long slides, mostly because they usually have smoother 7th positions. At least that is my perception. All of my Bachs and my Conn 72H have very smooth slide action down through 7th position. When I play my Edwards and Yamaha horns, I am a bit more cautious in the outer positions because they start to pivot slightly in (what I consider) normal 7th position.

I do have one trombone in which the slide is definitely too long. It is my 1980s Holton TR-256 (.547-.559 dual bore with screw bell). When I converted it to modular bell section (added a Benge 190 valve and custom F wrap), I decided to trim the main tuning slide about 3/8 inch so it wasn’t flat with my larger mouthpieces. The slide on that horn is about 3/4 inch longer than my Bach 42 and 50 slides, even longer than my Conn 72H. Sure, I can play a low C in trigger 7.5 perfectly in tune, but the ergonomics on that horn are just too front heavy…….even with F attachment + balance weights at the far back end of the F tubing. Someday I am going to rebuild that horn because it has a beautiful sound…..just need to shorten the slide a bit and replace the tuning slide legs with ones that are normal length.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Comparing all of my different Conn model slides, I'm still confused as to why the 78H slides are so long and wide? They're almost 2 inches longer than my 8H/88H slides and almost as long as my 71H slide.

The fact that the 78H slide crook is wider than 8H and 88H slide crook has been baffling people for decades!

[MrHCinDE]

I prefer the standard length Edwards over the slightly longer Bach 42 slides for large bore tenor. The reason is simple, I often play in groups which tune to 442Hz or even 443. I can just about get there on a Bach slide but doesn’t leave much room for when the trumpets inevitably drift even higher.

[Posaunus]

I love long slides, mostly because they usually have smoother 7th positions. At least that is my perception. All of my Bachs and my Conn 72H have very smooth slide action down through 7th position.

I really like the (somewhat longer?) slide on my Conn 71H, which has a smooth 7th position, and I can stretch it to play an in-tune low C.
(Could probably play a good low B if I pulled the extension on the F-attachment, but I almost never encounter these, so I don't bother.)

[Finetales]

If I could have a 72H-length slide (and matching shorter bell section) on all of my trombones, I would. Love that extra room for a real low C in long 7th.

I just got an old G bass trombone and that slide has 7.5 positions or so...guess I'm just drawn to extra-long slides.

[CalgaryTbone]

Two of my colleagues here in Calgary both bought Shires large tenors at about the same time. One of them was having an issue getting his new horn up to pitch, and the other had his tuning slide out quite a bit to be at A440. They discovered that one of them had the longer slide from Shires. The slides were otherwise identical, and both were new, so they traded - problem solved.

Jim Scott

[Thrawn22]

Comparing all of my different Conn model slides, I'm still confused as to why the 78H slides are so long and wide? They're almost 2 inches longer than my 8H/88H slides and almost as long as my 71H slide.

The fact that the 78H slide crook is wider than 8H and 88H slide crook has been baffling people for decades!

Tuning crook width is baffling as well.

[Kevbach33]

The short slide is the only quibble I have with the Getzen, especially as one who uses alternate positions frequently. It's just so smooth that I'm not going to worry about getting a longer slide build for it for the time being.

I think small bore tenors and altos — or any trombones without a valve — need a solid 7th position since there are no substitute positions in the lower partials. Low C's are common enough that single valve basses also need a solid 7 positions plus a little extra room, something Conn nailed with the 7xH basses.

[greenbean]

Right down to the bottom of the bumper...

King 3B 31 ½”
King 5B 32 ¼”
King 7B 32 ½”
King 1480/1485 32 ½”
Bach corp 42 33”
Yamaha 882 32”
Holton TR185 32 ½”
Getzen 351 31 ¼”
Conn 6H (1967) 31 ¼”
Conn 71H 33 ¼”

[ithinknot]

If you're not just worried about whether something fits in a case, the only useful dimension is the length of the outer tubes, which defines the usable extension of the slide.

The distance 'lost' above the cork barrel varies considerably, and single vs dual radius crooks will naturally stick out more or less, but not in a way that tells you anything about 7th position.

[greenbean]

Exactly right. Mine measurements were total length (and width) for making slide cases. A player can play low-C's all day but the slide might still not fit in the case!

[Sesquitone]

It's the length of the inner tubes that determines the maximum extension before too much of (one of) the stockings is exposed. [The outer tubes are not always the same length—e.g. the Conn alto.]

Seventh position on a Bb trombone is at an extension of 613 mm. F-attachment sixth position would require an extension of 661 mm. A normal tenor slide can be over-extended to about 620 mm, before leaking or almost falling off. At that extension, the F-attachment Cs are still 27¢ sharp and require some embouchure adjustment—most obvious on the fourth harmonic C3. [An F trombone B1 requires an extension of 818 mm. So players who routinely (and convincingly) play this note on an F attachment (with a standard tenor slide) are doing a lot of "embouchure adjustment"!]

[hornbuilder]

But what length is a "normal" tenor slide?? Or bass slide?? There is no "normal". Is Bach normal? Conn? Holton?

An instrument designer either incorporates the idea of "the player needs to be able to play an in tune low C", or they don't.

[afugate]

But what length is a "normal" tenor slide?? Or bass slide?? There is no "normal". Is Bach normal? Conn? Holton?

An instrument designer either incorporates the idea of "the player needs to be able to play an in tune low C", or they don't.

In general, what does an instrument designer sacrifice when designing a horn to have an in tune low C?
--Andy in OKC

[BGuttman]

In general, what does an instrument designer sacrifice when designing a horn to have an in tune low C?
--Andy in OKC

Generally the longer handslide means that the portion behind the player is less and hence you lose balance (the instrument becomes nose-heavy). There may be acoustic effects, but I don't know of any off-hand.

[Posaunus]

A normal tenor slide can be over-extended to about 620 mm, before leaking or almost falling off.

I'm not sure there is a single "normal" tenor slide. They're all a bit different.

[An F trombone B1 requires an extension of 818 mm. So players who routinely (and convincingly) play this note on an F attachment (with a standard tenor slide) are doing a lot of "embouchure adjustment"!]

Or they are pulling their F-attachment slide out to E, so the B1 is in tune at T6. Not always convenient, but it works!

[Burgerbob]

Or they are pulling their F-attachment slide out to E, so the B1 is in tune at T6. Not always convenient, but it works!

Pulling to E on most horns (non-long-slide Conns) will not get you a B. It'll get you a C just past 6th. You need almost Eb to get a B near the end of the slide.

[Posaunus]

Or they are pulling their F-attachment slide out to E, so the B1 is in tune at T6. Not always convenient, but it works!

Pulling to E on most horns (non-long-slide Conns) will not get you a B. It'll get you a C just past 6th. You need almost Eb to get a B near the end of the slide.

Thank goodness for long-slide Conn trombones. Especially my 71H, though that's not a tenor. (But it's only bass trombone parts where I encounter the low B1s.)

[hornbuilder]

Pulling to E on most horns (non-long-slide Conns) will not get you a B. It'll get you a C just past 6th. You need almost Eb to get a B near the end of the slide.

That is not quite the whole story.

The traditional wrap 88H has a full E pull, but, the handslide length is not quite long enough to get the pitch down far enough for a low B. In this case, the valve loop is long enough, but the handslide isn't.

A Bach on the other hand, has a long enough handslide, but the valve slide is not long enough to get to a real E. So in this case the valve loop isn't long enough, but the handslide is.

Again, the instrument designer has the decision to make. Do they want the horn to have an in tune low B? It is simple to make the handslide long enough to get a full 7th position, "and" make the F valve tuning slide long enough to get an actual E in first position. That is how I designed my single valve basses. I have no problem playing low B's in tune.

Regarding the front/back balance being thrown off, that just simply isn't true. If the instrument is designed correctly.

[hornbuilder]

To answer Gabe.

There has been a choice by some makers to make the bell section longer (this may have been necessary due to the valve of choice taking up more straight line space on the gooseneck, for example, or, they wanted to incorporate more length of tube for the taper to occur in the bell section) this has required the handslide to become shorter, if the base pitch is to be correct.

I trim my own slide tubes, and can make a slide pretty much whatever length someone may want. (I may not practice enough to discern the difference, but) I do not really experience any significant playing difference between slides that may be 1/2 to 3/4" different in telescoping tube length. Other than having, or not, a full 7th position.

[GabrielRice]

Thanks Matthew, I was hoping you would chime in.

[hornbuilder]

Something else to consider..

Many players find the standard Bach (even more so the older MV or NY instruments) to be flat, especially with the larger/deeper mouthpieces generally used for the last few decades.

Again, the instrument designer has a choice. Do you take base pitch into account?

Bach (perhaps?) did when they moved to Elkhart, by shortening the tuning slide tubes from the length they had been in NY/MV. But some players still need to remove length from factory Bach's to get them up to pitch.

Edwards chose to have longer gooseneck/bell sections on their newer models, which would play "very" flat if paired with a standard Bach slide (26 3/4" outer tube length) their handslides are shorter to accommodate the pitch required.

I'm speaking to bass trombones generally here, but it also applies to tenors.

[elmsandr]

Something else to consider..

Many players find the standard Bach (even more so the older MV or NY instruments) to be flat, especially with the larger/deeper mouthpieces generally used for the last few decades.

Again, the instrument designer has a choice. Do you take base pitch into account?

Bach (perhaps?) did when they moved to Elkhart, by shortening the tuning slide tubes from the length they had been in NY/MV. But some players still need to remove length from factory Bach's to get them up to pitch.

Edwards chose to have longer gooseneck/bell sections on their newer models, which would play "very" flat if paired with a standard Bach slide (26 3/4" outer tube length) their handslides are shorter to accommodate the pitch required.

I'm speaking to bass trombones generally here, but it also applies to tenors.

It was significantly after the move to Elkhart that Bach shortened the tuning slide tubes, though still in the ‘corporation’ bell stamp era, so not too terribly long. Somewhere I still have a picture of various ages of Bach tuning slide tubes all lined up to show the change.

Even with the current factory length, I still have to play with a Shires/Edwards length slide in order to have the tuning slide pulled a reasonable amount. If I’m playing with a Bach slide, my tuning slide is usually close to entirely closed.

Cheers,
Andy

[timothy42b]

It's the length of the inner tubes that determines the maximum extension before too much of (one of) the stockings is exposed. [The outer tubes are not always the same length—e.g. the Conn alto.]

If one played mostly in the high range, you might be able to shorten the inner slide to 3rd or 4th position, but keep the outer slide the normal length, so the horn stayed pitched in Bb. You might need a trigger.

And then if you wanted it for a travel horn or pit horn, you could fold the outer slide into a quadra-slide looking shape, but still pitched in Bb. There's an old post here somewhere with a couple options for how to connect that up. Unlike a quadra-slide it would stay aligned.

[Sesquitone]

Just to follow up on "E pull", "flat-E pull", and an Eb attachment, let me put some actual numbers on the slide lengths.

The following snippets of ETSP Charts show the range between Bb1 and F2 for:
(a) a standard F attachment
(b) the attachment tuning slide pulled to E
(c) the so-called "flat-E" pull (so that B1 sits at slide-alone seventh position), and
(d) an Eb attachment.
The numbers at the very top (and the vertical lines) show slide-alone reference positions—seventh position being at 613 mm.

With an F attachment, to be able to play an in-tune C2 (and its pedal), the slide would need to be long enough to extend to 661 mm, as shown in (a). The B1 is far away, at 818 mm.

As seen in (b), pulling the tuning slide to E (or inserting a separate crook) puts the C1 well on the slide, at 544 mm; but the B1 would require an extension to 701 mm. Contrary to "conventional wisdom", an E-pull does not put an in-tune B1 onto even a "long" slide!

The so-called "flat-E pull" (to put B1 on the slide, at 613 mm) is actually closer to Eb—29¢ sharper than an equitempered Eb, as seen in (c). In other words: a sharp-Eb pull.

Finally, (d) shows the slide positions for an in-tune Eb attachment. The B1 is now at 576 mm, 37 mm shorter than slide-alone seventh position.




.

[hornbuilder]

Showing numbers and graphs is all good, but they only live in the theoretical world. Apparently my claiming something isn't good enough, so, as the saying goes "video or it didn't happen".

[Sesquitone]

Thanks Matthew, that definitely proves your point. Can you estimate how much further out the E-attachment B1 is beyond the slide-alone seventh-position B2? How's the intonation of a B2 played at the same location as the B1?

[hornbuilder]

B1 is maybe 1cm further out on the slide than 7th B2.

[Sesquitone]

So my theoretical analysis has just gone buggerup!

[hornbuilder]

I have done a lot of theoretical figuring of instruments in my time. Only to find that in almost every single instance, what the theory says, and what the practical application shows, do not agree. I know that theory for cylindrical tube is good. As is theory for cones, but brass instruments are neither, and seem to have their own quirks unexplained (so far) by theory.

[Posaunus]

I have done a lot of theoretical figuring of instruments in my time. Only to find that in almost every single instance, what the theory says, and what the practical application shows, do not agree. I know that theory for cylindrical tube is good. As is theory for cones, but brass instruments are neither, and seem to have their own quirks unexplained (so far) by theory.

Thanks Matthew. I've always felt that I can get in "in-tune" C1 on my Conn 71H if I stretch my arms enough, and perhaps even on my Elkhart Conn 88H. I play the B1 (using the "flat-E" pull) so seldom that I'm not sure whether it's perfectly in tune. (But it's a pretty good approximation). Wish I had longer arms!

[elmsandr]

It's the length of the inner tubes that determines the maximum extension before too much of (one of) the stockings is exposed. [The outer tubes are not always the same length—e.g. the Conn alto.]

If one played mostly in the high range, you might be able to shorten the inner slide to 3rd or 4th position, but keep the outer slide the normal length, so the horn stayed pitched in Bb. You might need a trigger.

And then if you wanted it for a travel horn or pit horn, you could fold the outer slide into a quadra-slide looking shape, but still pitched in Bb. There's an old post here somewhere with a couple options for how to connect that up. Unlike a quadra-slide it would stay aligned.

I read this and thought… ooh that would be interesting to build…. Then I realized I have most of it already built, just not the folded slide built. I have my Eb tenor with a slide that is ~24” overall from tenon to rubber tip. And it is made from a Bach 42, so I could try it with a regular 42 outer, which I also have. Wonder what it will sound like…

Hadn’t considered this as a use for those parts.

Cheers,
Andy

[Sesquitone]

At the risk of drifting into a discussion of short-slide configurations, let me draw your attention (again, in some cases) to a US patent in 1995 of a short-slide version of a Bb/G trombone, with the "missing" slide length made up in the bell section (giving a very comfortable weight distribution). This was intended as a professional trombone covering the standard tenor range continuously down to E2 (plus pedals)—actually, Eb, in this case. See attached ETSP Chart. It also makes an excellent student model for young students (with short arms). It thereby differs from the Holton Bb/G Collegiate student model developed in consultation with Mark McDunn, which had a full-length tenor slide. The instrument shown has six full positions in Bb—to allow for some additional low-register alternates; five positions in G. But the slide could be even shorter, without interrupting chromatic continuity. Of course, as many members here know, a single (thumb-trigger-actuated) minor-third attachment (on a tenor trombone) is far (far) superior to the perfect-fourth attachment in terms of facile slide manipulation in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register! Not even close!

The other tenor trombone I really like is pitched C/A with seven positions in C, six in A. This has the full tenor range down to E2, with two additional "bonus" pedals. The slide is 12% shorter than that of a Bb tenor. It makes a powerful professional lead instrument, paralleling the C trumpet often used in orchestras.


.

[timothy42b]

If one played mostly in the high range, you might be able to shorten the inner slide to 3rd or 4th position, but keep the outer slide the normal length, so the horn stayed pitched in Bb. You might need a trigger.

And then if you wanted it for a travel horn or pit horn, you could fold the outer slide into a quadra-slide looking shape, but still pitched in Bb. There's an old post here somewhere with a couple options for how to connect that up. Unlike a quadra-slide it would stay aligned.

I read this and thought… ooh that would be interesting to build…. Then I realized I have most of it already built, just not the folded slide built. I have my Eb tenor with a slide that is ~24” overall from tenon to rubber tip. And it is made from a Bach 42, so I could try it with a regular 42 outer, which I also have. Wonder what it will sound like…

Hadn’t considered this as a use for those parts.

Cheers,
Andy

It would be interesting to know what it sounded like with the 42 slide. The quadras sounded a little stuffy to me, but then you have the inner slide folded too, with all the alignment difficulties. I never played one with an acceptable slide at the usual dealer booths.

Oh, and don't forget about the jazzbone configuration. Is he still around here?

[JohnL]

Oh, and don't forget about the jazzbone configuration. Is he still around here?

I found a tribute post to him on Facebook. Looks like he passed away back in 2019.

Doesn't look like Tromba is making the Jazzbone any more; it's still on their site, but I don't see anyone selling them.

[Sesquitone]

Just a note supporting a simple-but-practical theory of brass instrument acoustics consisting of:
(a) a Full Harmonic Series (FHS) for a fixed sound-path length, based on modifications of the odd harmonics of a circular cylindrical pipe closed at one end, due to the effects of bell flare and mouthpiece/lead-pipe geometry,
and
(b) sound-path lengths for equitempered tones of a twelve-note chromatic scale based on a geometric series with a common ratio equal to the Twelfth-Root of Two (TRT).

This FHS/TRT theory predicts pitch frequencies and sound-path lengths that are generally within (plus or minus) a few cents and a few millimetres, respectively, of values found in practice.

For example, for a Bb trombone with an F attachment, the FHS/TRT theory predicts that C2 will be available at 48 mm beyond slide-alone seventh position—very close to the position usually used if the slide is long enough. If the slide cannot accommodate that much over-extension, an extension of only 10 mm beyond seventh position has a theoretical frequency 25 cents sharper than an equitempered C2. This is easily lipped down by embouchure adjustment to give a well-in-tune C2. A similar technique is used for the pedal C1.

For a Bb trombone with an attachment tuned to E (e.g. by pulling out the tuning slide of an F attachment), FHS/TRT theory predicts that B1 will be available at 88 mm beyond slide-alone seventh position. This is a very long over-extension, and usually not possible even on a "long" bass-trombone slide. If the slide can indeed be extended to 48 mm beyond seventh position, the theoretically predicted frequency is (by chance, also) 25 cents sharper than an equitempered B1—again, easily lipped down to an in-tune B1. An extension of only 10 mm beyond seventh position is almost exactly "half-way" (i.e. the geometric mean) between E-attachment theoretical positions for C2 and (what would be) B1, which, of course, produces a tone 50 cents sharper than the equitempered B1. To lip this down to a robust B1 requires a very strong and well-controlled embouchure (in addition to a "good ear", of course).

The straightforward FHS/TRT theory works well in predicting frequencies of the harmonics of brass instruments at any fixed sound-path length. And in predicting (and explaining) the sound-path length for any given tone (equitempered or not)—as seen, in particular, in the discussion of playing C2 on a Bb/F trombone. There does not seem to be any reason to doubt the theory's validity when applied to playing B1 when the attachment is re-tuned to E.

If a single-trigger continuously chromatic (bass) trombone is called for, the optimal ("canonical") tuning of the attachment is down a perfect fifth, for example Bb/Eb: the five fundamentals supplied by the attachment, Eb, D, Db, C, and B, just exactly fill in the five missing tones of the "tenor gap". Slide manipulation is no more awkward than that for a Bb tenor trombone (without attachment) in the low register. If the attachment is tuned 14 cents sharp, some handy attachment alternates are available from the attachment fifth harmonic.


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Backus , modified harmonics.png

The twelfth-root of 2.png

Bb[Eb] ETSP Chart.png

[hornbuilder]

I'm not lipping down the pitch of the low B in the video I posted. I think that is pretty obvious from the sound quality.

[Burgerbob]

To be fair, that's flat ish E with a long slide.

[hornbuilder]

Listen to the video again. The handslide is standard Bach length. ie 26 3/4" outer tubes.

One thing to note. Bach make their slides so that the outer tube does not go all the way to the top of the outer slide sleeve. This reduces the maximum possible extension of the slide. I make my slides with the outer tube going to the very top of the sleeve. Maximizing slide extension

[Burgerbob]

To my ears, sounds like the E through the valve is noticeably lower than the E on the slide. Not a big deal, but not an E you would probably want to play in 1st position either.

[hornbuilder]

It is a different tone color. Because it is being played on a long tube. vs 2nd position. Just like that same E in 7th doesn't sound the same as the 2nd position note.I will play it again tomorrow with a tuner to confirm, but even if it is lower, it is microtones, if anything.

[hornbuilder]

The simple fact is, that horn is a single valve bass trombone that has an absolutely usable low B. I have used it many times in ensembles playing repertoire that has low B's, with no hesitation.

[harrisonreed]

Bb[Eb] ETSP Chart.png

Sorry, I just really like whatever this chart is. I'm not smart enough to decipher it, but I feel the need to see more of it.

Like this:

Bb[Eb] ETSP Chart.png

[Sesquitone]

The ETSP Chart for any kind of trombone, with or without attachment(s), is a very straightforward idea: a precise graphical portrayal of Equitempered Tones (vertical axis) against Slide Position (horizontal axis)—based on FHS/TRT theory, as described earlier.

In the first chart below for a Bb tenor trombone, available equitempered tones are shown by black dots. The heavy lines sloping down to the right connect all tones on a given harmonic. Vertical lines show each of the seven reference positions corresponding to the first, second, fourth, eighth and sixteenth harmonics. ET points on other harmonics do not fall exactly on these lines. Unlike conventional "position charts" (using staff notation), the ETSP Chart shows precise deviations. Horizontal lines represent each note of the chromatic scale, numbered above Bb1 at the right. At the left, lines of the treble and bass clefs have been shown so as to correlate with staff notation. Dashed lines connect ETSP points one whole-tone apart between adjacent harmonics. Semitone increments between adjacent harmonics are shown by light solid lines. Note how these sets of lines form similar patterns, one octave apart. The coloured regions are bounded by chromatic scales for shortest possible slide positions (orange) and longest possible positions (blue). In this way, available alternate positions can be seen at a glance—in the unshaded regions in between. Where the coloured regions touch, no alternates are available. The five-note tenor gap is quite obvious.

The second ETSP Chart is for a Bb (tenor or bass) trombone with an F attachment. Attachment ETSP points are shown by open circles. The relationship between attachment and slide-alone positions is precise—which is relevant to the current discussion (albeit for an E attachment, not shown here). [Lower portions of ETSP Charts for F, E, "flat-E" (actually, sharp-Eb), and Eb attachments were shown earlier.]

A similar chart for a "real" trombone played by a "real" person will differ slightly—but not (usually) by more than a few cents vertically or a few millimetres horizontally. Also relevant to the current discussion!

I have been using ETSP Charts for over 50 years; I'm so used to them that I've probably forgotten to explain some important points. Once you become familiar with them, their pedagogical (and practical) use becomes obvious. Please let me know if you have any comments or questions.






.

Bb Trombone ETSP Chart.jpg

[hornbuilder]

Here's a question. Who are you? Where do you play? How many trombones have you designed and put into production in your life? All any of us know of you is your anonymous forum handle, and your listing as being a retired engineer and amateur trombonist.

Me?? I won my full time, permanent position of bass trombone with the Australian Opera a when I was 21. That was a 48 week professional orchestra job, which I occupied for 16 years. I list that in my signature.

I am a trained instrument technician.

I moved to the US 17 years ago to become involved in manufacture full time. I have been involved in design of trombones for several companies, including my own, M&W, and I have consulted with others. I have personally made many, many hundreds of top level professional trombones, many of which are played by the some of the finest players both in the US and overseas.

I have even posted a video showing that it is possible to make a single valve bass trombone that has a perfectly usable low B.

I even put my "real" name in my signature.

But none of that seems to matter because it hasn't been presented in graph form.

[harrisonreed]

Yes! That's the stuff right there! ^

And here:

Bb[Eb] ETSP Chart.png

Mmmmm

[elmsandr]

Here's a question. Who are you? Where do you play? How many trombones have you designed and put into production in your life? All any of us know of you is your anonymous forum handle, and your listing as being a retired engineer and amateur trombonist.

Me?? I won my full time, permanent position of bass trombone with the Australian Opera a when I was 21. That was a 48 week professional orchestra job, which I occupied for 16 years. I list that in my signature.

I am a trained instrument technician.

I moved to the US 17 years ago to become involved in manufacture full time. I have been involved in design of trombones for several companies, including my own, M&W, and I have consulted with others. I have personally made many, many hundreds of top level professional trombones, many of which are played by the some of the finest players both in the US and overseas.

I have even posted a video showing that it is possible to make a single valve bass trombone that has a perfectly usable low B.

I even put my "real" name in my signature.

But none of that seems to matter because it hasn't been presented in graph form.

Matt,
Just to note here that we do ‘know’ Benny, as he’s had some history on this site, the previous site, and even the Trombone-L if I recall correctly. Just not in the handle or signature line.

Also, for design credentials, I seem to recall that he was involved in the development of the Caidex valve. What with fluid dynamics being his professional area of expertise…

But anyway, yes, you are darned near the only builder I’ve seen that notices how long the handslide AND F attachment slide both need to be to get a B. One of my few general design annoyances is really long F attachment tuning slides that do not actually provide functionality for that length (looking at you, every Thayer valve section ever designed).

Cheers,
Andy