Help with 2nd Trombone Purchase

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:17 pm

I am am looking for some help. My son (6th grade) has been playing the trombone for 3 years now. At the beginning of this school year, at the encouragement of his school band teacher, he also picked up the Euphonium. He plays both instruments with the Schilke 51D mouthpiece. (Medium deep bore / 25.55mm inner diameter.) He is planning to give up the Euphonium at the end of the school year and concentrate on the trombone. Only problem is that his student Euphonium makes his student trombone (Bach 301) sound like junk; and he really wants a trombone that sounds better. Most of what I have read online is that after a couple of years of playing the trombone, it is time to upgrade......but it is also clear that most kids don't hit the 2 to 3 year mark until high school.

......so I am wondering what to do next. Mom and dad are ready to get him a new instrument to help keep him motivated. We think he has earned it. (He even practices every day with minimal prodding). It is also true that purchasing an upgraded trombone for him will be cheaper than finishing up the last 2 years of rental payments on the Euphonium.

The general consensus I have read is that one shouldn't waste their money on a intermediate trombone....they should simply skip to a pro-trombone.

My questions is whether a pro-trombone is the right thing for a 12 year old? Will it cause lung/breathing problems? It is a mistake? Is an intermediate horn (0.525 bore) a much better decision?

With that said, we have been to a variety of music shops and my son loves the sounds he can get out of some pro horns. He is thrilled at how much more stable the high notes are. (Almost no one stocks intermediate horns....so the stores keep giving him 0.547s to play - and calling them intermediates). His favorite so far have been the Conn 88HO, Vintage Conn 88H and Getzen 547 Capri. He has tried the Bach 42BO and Bach 42B and isn't so crazy about the tone quality, and he thinks they take too much air. He has played the Getson 725 dual bore, and the sound is better than his current, but not as good as the first three horns I mentioned. Tried a Bach TBSLO310 (Soloist) and didn't like the sound. Tried an Eastman MTB 232G (private label), which had the same tone quality as his current instrument....at three times the price.

Other notes: Son just got invited to play in the All-City Honor Band for Euphonium. He is the strongest in the low brass section of his school - albeit a small school. His private teacher's assessment is that he plays at the high school level. Just did a Solo Festival with John Williams' "Hedwig's Theme." - an arrangement...not the original score.

You are probably wondering why we don't just ask his private teacher. Great question! His private teacher is very talented, is playing with the local professional symphony, but he is very young and his primary instrument is the Tuba.....He admittedly doesn't know trombone brands well, even though he can play them just fine.

Thank you for any help and guidance

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:27 pm

I'd let him try as many horns as you can find, and then take a look at the used market. Also remember, every horn is different so just because one 42 plays excellent doesn't mean the next one will too.

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:53 pm

Any concerns about him playing a 0.547 bore at his age (12)?

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:56 pm

Schilke 51D for a 12 year old on a .547.

Could work. I guess. Maybe. (But there might be better mpc choices.)

-----

What would DJ recommend, I wonder? Seems the boy is gravitating towards lighter .547 horns. Makes sense to me.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:59 pm

I (and every other student I knew at the time) had shuffled up to the 0.547, mostly Bach 42s, by 7th or 8th grade. It can work.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:18 pm

There are "intermediate" quality and then "intermediate" size. Don't fall into the 547 trap. You don't need a large bore (547) horn. A medium bore (525) horn will probably fit him best. The Getzen 725 is a dual bore (525/547) and is probably a good choice. A Bach 36b would also be a good option. Conn 52h will also work as would a Yamaha 640. A King 3b/f would not be an inappropriate choice either, although its a smaller bore (508). The store is going to try to sell you what they have in stock.

The bore size thing is mostly about machismo, and its a trap young players, parents, and teachers seem to fall into regularly. Professionals play all sizes of tenors from 485 to 547. A high school kid does not need to have equipment on one extreme of that spectrum. Something in the middle is probably most appropriate. To me that means 508-525.

Anyway, he'll practice most on the horn he likes best, and ordering a horn blind can be a crap shoot. I'd buy him something from the store but try to steer him toward something smaller.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:31 pm

I liked a .525 Yamaha with F that I tried a couple of months ago. Unless the boy is in the national youth symphony, something like that would work until he finished high school. It would work in jazz band, concert band and orchestra (I've used my .525 in all of those situations, including the bass trombone part in jazz band, in the last two years - and got compliments on my great bass trombone sound LOL). Buy a cheap peashooter for marching band.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:49 am

I second the Yamaha post - one of the best young trombone players I played alongside kept on a medium bore Yamaha Bb/F trombone until he was 18 and sounded better than I did.
Another very good player used a Conn Bb/F medium bore through university orchestras, brass bands and big bands (non-music student) and is still using it for funk/big band playing.

On the other hand, I started on a really heavy large bore trombone at 13. Peter Moore won the UK "Young Musician of the Year" at 12 playing a Bb/F Yamaha Xeno (I think that these are large bore only). The weight may be an issue, but there are attachments nowadays that help ease this.

Even if his teacher doesn't feel qualified to give brand recommendations, get them to hear some playing on one of the horns that your son likes. Any breathing issues should be obvious and they should be able to pick up on whether the instrument suits the player. You cannot really go wrong if the player likes playing an instrument, the teacher thinks that it works well with them and the captive audience thinks that it sounds good.

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:47 am

Thank you for the posts. I still appreciate additional thoughts and ideas.

To Clarify:

1) My son is playing a Schilke 51D Small shank for his 0.500 bore student trombone. We would expect to change mouthpieces on a .547. Not sure if we would change for a 0.525.
2) We will likely buy him a used instrument. We plan to play before we purchase.....unless the instrument is returnable.

DJ....do you have any recommendations. We are in the market....

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:42 am

I think a Yamaha medium or large bore would be worth trying. They are easy to play and sound great. I would also try some different mouthpieces. The 51D is not a good trombone mouthpiece for most people. It IS a good euphonium mouthpiece for most people. A Bach 5G would be a pretty mainstream choice and I'd start there.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:48 am

There has been debate over the years about whether a 51D is an effective trombone mpc.

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:35 am

The Schilke mouthpiece is a hazard of having a primarily Tuba player teach him trombone. Thank you for the advice on the Bach 5G.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:03 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 22, 2017, 06:56PMSchilke 51D for a 12 year old on a .547.

Could work. I guess. Maybe. (But there might be better mpc choices.)

-----

What would DJ recommend, I wonder? Seems the boy is gravitating towards lighter .547 horns. Makes sense to me.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:46 am

I think if he's playing euphonium, a large bore trombone is not out of the question. From your descriptions of the tests run so far it seems he's trying to play the trombone like his euphonium so he's overblowing the smaller trombones. Note that when I was in High School I hated Bach trombones also -- found them hard to play. I preferred Kings.

The Conn 88H is a nice "lighter" trombone.

The Yamaha 448 (a somewhat stripped down version of an older Pro model) is pretty common. A used 648 might be a good shot. Or a 682 or a 620.

I'd put in a plug for my favorite "sleeper" trombone: the Benge 190-F. They weren't popular so they tend to go cheap but they were a really high grade pro trombone. Also see if you can find the Holton large bores: 150, 158, or 159.

Good luck in your search. Lots of great trombones out there.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:07 am

you have come to the right place for advice and opinions !!!!!!!!
6th grade ---well i can imagine he will be growing --but for now the 547s might be a bit
too much

/// really there are several things i consider when matching up
   players and trombones //size//careful//habits //taste //budgets //
from what he felt about the bach 42s taking too much air--as much can be said about the
  other ones 88h//getzen capri with the air //
bach holds up quality durability and resale best followed by conn getzen next and yamaha last
   for step ups i have placed yamaha 356 getzen duo bore // 547S//AND 525B/F
the highest quality is bach and unless he he is already 6'2'' i would recommend a bach 36 trad wrap
   or if he is careful and not a klutz a 36 open wrap--they arent as big overall as the
  conn 88 and especially getzens which are full size for sure
   he will probably be headed for first chair
------------
IF HE GOES BIG BORE //why not BASS TROMBONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????
-------------
cash flow can be a factor -
-------------
the best thing about putting a kid on a 547 really early

is when they rediscover the small bore

!!!!!!! a small bore pro model

------------------------
if you decide to go big //THINK ABOUT A REAL CLASSIC =ELKHART 88H !!!!!!! OH YEAH
-----------
ST LOUIS STUDENT OF ST LOUIS PHIL TEAACHER --HA HA PICKED A CLASSIC MOUNT VERNON MODEL 6 !!!!!!!!
EAT THAT BIG BOREBOYZ !!!

  a couple of years ago a couple of scott air force bandsmen came to the studio
to pick out a trombone for the daughter /maybe a freshman/or 8th grade /
well i had a really great gold brass bell 42 at the time and i knew they would try
to steer her towards it ---so having a ''few'' trombones about began to hand her trombones to
try ---well she could easily play the ''student '' size horns and the bigger ones well
////// so i had her //OK KID LETS HEAR YOU OPEN IT UP !!!! AS LOUD AS YOU CAN BLOW//
it was pretty funny because the guys really got it after that //TOO BIG //
   she really loved this older bach 36b and is still playing it !!!!!
---------------
  other pro 525 b/f like yamaha 646/684 i have had and now have two here
but unless the yamahas are in very newish cond --forget it
-------------------
  pro king model 2125 525/b/f 3B+/F another student with teacher try out again picked a bach 36bo
   over the well regarded king --which leans more toward jazz
------------------------
  mike egan got two duo bore getzen for his middle schooler students
   the have 8 1/2 bells and full w i d e slides
---------------------
mouthpieces --whatever works !!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have used 6 1/2 as a base mpc and can go bigger
easier than going smaller --and really liked a bach 4 w an lt 36g !!!!!

--------------------
  so right now your son is at the goldilocks decision !!!!!!!!
i would get one now the is the best fit right size
  ------------
if i had him over here it would be pretty easy for him to fall in luv w a quality trombone
  or more than likely a bunch of bones !!!!!!!!!!!

thanks for supporting him !!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 22, 2017, 06:17PMI am am looking for some help. My son (6th grade) has been playing the trombone for 3 years now. At the beginning of this school year, at the encouragement of his school band teacher, he also picked up the Euphonium. He plays both instruments with the Schilke 51D mouthpiece. (Medium deep bore / 25.55mm inner diameter.) He is planning to give up the Euphonium at the end of the school year and concentrate on the trombone. Only problem is that his student Euphonium makes his student trombone (Bach 301) sound like junk; and he really wants a trombone that sounds better. Most of what I have read online is that after a couple of years of playing the trombone, it is time to upgrade......but it is also clear that most kids don't hit the 2 to 3 year mark until high school.

......so I am wondering what to do next. Mom and dad are ready to get him a new instrument to help keep him motivated. We think he has earned it. (He even practices every day with minimal prodding). It is also true that purchasing an upgraded trombone for him will be cheaper than finishing up the last 2 years of rental payments on the Euphonium.

The general consensus I have read is that one shouldn't waste their money on a intermediate trombone....they should simply skip to a pro-trombone.

My questions is whether a pro-trombone is the right thing for a 12 year old? Will it cause lung/breathing problems? It is a mistake? Is an intermediate horn (0.525 bore) a much better decision?

With that said, we have been to a variety of music shops and my son loves the sounds he can get out of some pro horns. He is thrilled at how much more stable the high notes are. (Almost no one stocks intermediate horns....so the stores keep giving him 0.547s to play - and calling them intermediates). His favorite so far have been the Conn 88HO, Vintage Conn 88H and Getzen 547 Capri. He has tried the Bach 42BO and Bach 42B and isn't so crazy about the tone quality, and he thinks they take too much air. He has played the Getson 725 dual bore, and the sound is better than his current, but not as good as the first three horns I mentioned. Tried a Bach TBSLO310 (Soloist) and didn't like the sound. Tried an Eastman MTB 232G (private label), which had the same tone quality as his current instrument....at three times the price.

Other notes: Son just got invited to play in the All-City Honor Band for Euphonium. He is the strongest in the low brass section of his school - albeit a small school. His private teacher's assessment is that he plays at the high school level. Just did a Solo Festival with John Williams' "Hedwig's Theme." - an arrangement...not the original score.

You are probably wondering why we don't just ask his private teacher. Great question! His private teacher is very talented, is playing with the local professional symphony, but he is very young and his primary instrument is the Tuba.....He admittedly doesn't know trombone brands well, even though he can play them just fine.

Thank you for any help and guidance

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:31 am

DJ - So we had a lead on a 1968 88H. When he played it, his face lit up. He hasn't smiled that much playing any other instrument....but mom and dad are concerned that it is too big for him.....so we are still asking around. I appreciate everyones insight. Will talk with you about your inventory separately.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:56 am

I'm not so concerned about the size of the 88H. I'm more concerned about the fact that an Elkhart Conn is a treasured instrument and while your son may be careful about using it, his compatriots may not. Middle School is a rough time for a musical instrument. It may see a bunch of bangs and dings that it wasn't made to handle.

You might want to see if DJ has the Yamaha copy of the 88H, the 643. It's a little gutsier than the Conn and might take the abuse better. If you want to get him the Conn, maybe keep it in reserve and have him use a more "disposable" instrument in school.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:59 am

Flame away on me that's ok. If a kid can start on tuba or a euphonium a kid can start on a .547 bore trombone. I have started beginners on .547 bore trombones for 30 plus years as a band director. Teach them how to breath, set an embouchure, and start a note the correct way with the tongue it works. Also, have used a 5g or similar sized mouthpiece to start them on. Again, if a you can start a kid on a tuba mouthpiece, they can start on a .547 trombone with 5g type mouthpiece it they are taught to hold it correctly, breath correctly, form/set an embouchure correctly and tongue start a note it works.

Get your son the 88h he likes. He is taking lessons, it will be fine.

ttf_John Thomas · Post by **ttf_John Thomas** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:09 am

Bruce, the Yamaha 543 its discontinued, I know it can be found used like the Benge's you love. However, sometimes they are difficult to find and it is always better for kid/family to play the instrument in this situation to know they really like the feel and sound of the the horn.

To me any instrument should be treated as a treasure whether it is a a vintage Conn/Bach/Holton/etc. or a new one. I agree that if they were to get the Elkhart 88h that it would be wise to get something like the Mack Brass, Wessex large bore, or one by Tempest Music Instruments out of San Antonio or a used Blessing 88/something similar for marching band/parades.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:47 pm

1968 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

=====================================================================================================
oh yeah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a great choice !!!!!!!!!!!!!
===============
they are classics !!!!! AND NOTHING NEW HAS THE SAME feeling
================
i just sold[one shipped] out TWO [trade and ''E ''SERIES@2200 TO BRAZIL] !!!!!!!! a fabulous ''E''
well there are the stories --my dad bought me this new in 19xx etc
one still here EASTMAN --STUDENT OF REMINGTON HISTORY
-------------
i had 6 and have a 1/2 a one partnering with greg waits in dallas
it will not be as pricy as something like the mint conndition ''L'' SERIES @2900
case was latches crashes so we bought a new protec maxx and i sent greg a new slide crook
for collector types original case and unrestored or repaired can be important
and command the highest value //the one in dallas isnt a wallet buster !!!!!!!
----------------
so if your son would like one NO PROBLEM ! funny how i suggested it
-------========================
not trying to beat up 547 recommenders ///BUT .........
==================================
a lot of older players //returning players go for the 36 and the BD dont notice the diff
personally i like the 547s went back to an old old favorite [my martino ] last summer ==playing 3rd in city band --slide isnt the best but its beautiful w big flowers engraved on a 9 in thin red flare
my favorite 88h ever is the ''SUPERBOWL ''what a history !!!!
-----------------

Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 10:31AMDJ - So we had a lead on a 1968 88H. When he played it, his face lit up. He hasn't smiled that much playing any other instrument....but mom and dad are concerned that it is too big for him.....so we are still asking around. I appreciate everyones insight. Will talk with you about your inventory separately.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:11 pm

Bruce, I cannot understand why you call the Elkhart Conn 88H light.... I could sit you next to quite a few players using 88H's who could monster anybody out of the way.
Out of fashion in the US perhaps... but not light.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:15 pm

Maybe a Schilke 51?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:16 pm

Quote from: blast on Apr 23, 2017, 02:11PMBruce, I cannot understand why you call the Elkhart Conn 88H light.... I could sit you next to quite a few players using 88H's who could monster anybody out of the way.
Out of fashion in the US perhaps... but not light.

Chris Stearn
Light compared to a Bach 42.

Actually the King 4B-F is "lighter" than the Conn.

I don't want to get into a pi**ing contest on what's better. The kid seemed to like the Conn and under ideal conditions it would be a great match. I just worry about bringing it into a school situation with 13 year olds.

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:28 pm

The parents are worried too.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:34 pm

i picked out a very serious ''E''SERIES for MARK MULLEY--PRINCIPLE ON MINAS GIRAS PO
no ring ding and holds together under the most intense blasting !!!!!!!!!!!!
OK SOME DONT !!!!! THEY ARE THE THINNIES !!!!!!!

Quote from: blast on Apr 23, 2017, 02:11PMBruce, I cannot understand why you call the Elkhart Conn 88H light.... I could sit you next to quite a few players using 88H's who could monster anybody out of the way.
Out of fashion in the US perhaps... but not light.

Chris Stearn

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:41 pm

not to worry !!!!!!!a cheepo blessing '' clone '' way under 500 !!!!!!!!!
-------------------
AN ELKIE !!!!!!!!!!!! YIPPEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
---------
the son has it !!!!!!!
--------waddaboudit JOHN THOMAS !!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 02:28PMThe parents are worried too.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:51 pm

To kids "vintage" just means "old".

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:15 pm

I would stick with a .525-bore horn. It is more likely to work out. Yes, a .547-bore can work for some kids, I am sure. But you should play the odds and get good, middle-of-the-road equipment. Many good medium-bore horns recommended above. I think the Yamahas would be a particularly good choice. The 446 is great. The 640, 646 (older), and 684, too, but they are harder to find. Mouthpieces? Schilke 51, 51B, Bach 6.5AL, Bach 5G, etc. Medium to big is okay. 51D? No. IMO.

Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 02:28PMThe parents are worried too.

There is your answer...

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:24 pm

Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 04:47AM
1) My son is playing a Schilke 51D Small shank for his 0.500 bore student trombone. We would expect to change mouthpieces on a .547. Not sure if we would change for a 0.525.
2) We will likely buy him a used instrument. We plan to play before we purchase.....unless the instrument is returnable.

DJ....do you have any recommendations. We are in the market....

First off, Skype with Doug Elliott. Get him fitted for a big boy mouthpiece. Next, giving a growing boy a larger trombone means a hand brace and a heavy duty case with shoulder straps. I'm a big guy with a strong grip, euphonium & bass bone player. I had a CT release 16 years ago. I had a school horn and a home horn, didn't take the Hirsbrunner to HS until junior year.

Why I like Doug, is that he makes shanks for vintage horns, plus the mouthpiece is equally important when moving up to a more suitable horn. Hand stress develops over time and hurts really bad after 30. A 51D was what I had 30 years go, and I made it work, still have several.

Took me about 2 years of mowing grass to pay off the horn. I hate hedge trimming....

Looks like you need a Doug & DJ love child.....

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:30 pm

The reason I would consider a .525 is that you can play it in nearly any situation. A .547, not so much. Think of all the discussion over the years about using a .547 to play lead. For a kid, it'll get you through jazz band, concert band, student orchestra, even marching band. Didn't Jimmy Knepper and Barry Rogers play Bach 36s? Ostrander's 78H. Mosca's 79H. Sauer's .525/.547 Shires (and before that a .525 slide on a cut-down 88H I think).

And even if size were important to some hs band director, it's 99.9% likely that he/she wouldn't/couldn't tell the difference anyway.
...

As for Doug Elliott - and I have tremendous respect for Doug and use his stuff to move between my alto, my .508, .525 and my .547 - dropping $200 on a mpc for a 12-year seems completely ludicrous. My opinion. YMMV.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:39 pm

There is nothing unprofessional about a medium bore trombone, for example, the Bach 36B! Its a good all-round horn that will definitely get you through any genre band!

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:51 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 03:30PMAs for Doug Elliott - and I have tremendous respect for Doug and use his stuff to move between my alto, my .508, .525 and my .547 - dropping $200 on a mpc for a 12-year seems completely ludicrous. My opinion. YMMV.

I said Skype him and get him fitted. I'm sure that may involve a lesson, Doug also knows a lot about vintage horns and the mouthpieces for them. It's my opinion. I see 12 yr olds with iPhones/iPads/Beats. So your point is?

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 02:51PMTo kids "vintage" just means "old".

You guys are great, but you have to understand that my son's preference is not to have a shiny instrument. He'd actually want to get the lacquer removed. He has it in his head that a lacquer free horn has a more mellow sound - which is true, isn't it. Have a Brass Band in our home town, and they are pretty good. When Wycliffe Gordon is soloing, my kid goes nuts. Even listens to Gordon on Apple Radio.

No need for any additional comments on mouthpieces.....he's gonna get a new one. When we decide on the horn, we can continue the mouthpiece conversation.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:08 pm

Quote from: schlitzbeer on Apr 23, 2017, 03:51PM"...I see 12 yr olds with iPhones/iPads/Beats..."

You're saying that's a good thing? 12-year olds with $300 Beats headphones?

Ok. I mean, I'm a dinosaur. What do I know about these things?

But a discussion about whether a 12-year old should be playing on a ST/MT/LT/XT100/101/102/103 rim with a medium/medium deep/deep cup seems, uh, premature. That's my point.

But that's my opinion.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:23 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 04:08PM
But a discussion about whether a 12-year old should be playing on a 100/101/102/103 rim with a medium/medium deep/deep cup seems, uh, premature.

But that's my opinion.

Look what the dad just wrote. The kid is doing his homework. The kid is thinking like an advanced student, plays like one. And bless him, he'll continue the mouthpiece conversation AFTER they've bought the horn. I'll leave it to the 1uppers.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:26 pm

Well, you wouldn't buy a new mouthpiece before you bought the horn would you?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:29 pm

Right now the kid has tried a couple of large bore pro horns and some rather small bore less than pro horns. He might like a Bach 36 or Conn 79H (or not). But he has tried the 88H and likes it.

I like the idea of a $500 Blessing B88 to use at school. Something that will see the bad side and take the knocks for the good horn. The good horn can be used for practicing, lessons, and concerts. If he's careful with it, the Conn could see him through college. Even if he majors in music.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:43 pm

"When he played it, his face lit up."

'Nuff said.

Mark Fellows is killing me these days.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:43 pm

YEAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=======================================================

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 04:43PM"When he played it, his face lit up."===========================================================================

===================
Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 04:43PM'Nuff said.====================
LIKE IF the son was into urbie and tommy ---then tried an oldie 2b !!!!!
Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 04:43PMMark Fellows is killing me these days.

<Edit: Fixed Quote>

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:20 pm

About 3 or 4 years ago, a 12 year old showed up to a local community band with an HN White King 2B Silversonic - the nice one with the gold wash bell. We drooled, we tried it; it was the real deal. $3200 USD on their website.

We all cringed more than the kid as he accidentally whacked the slide a few times into a music stand.

My advice is to buy wisely and thriftily until motor control catches up to his ability. Teenagers, even conscientious ones, are not strong or coordinated enough to warrant an expensive instrument. It's you money. Good luck.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:07 pm

Quote from: Torobone on Apr 23, 2017, 07:20PMWe all cringed more than the kid as he accidentally whacked the slide a few times into a music stand.

My advice is to buy wisely and thriftily until motor control catches up to his ability. Teenagers, even conscientious ones, are not strong or coordinated enough to warrant an expensive instrument. It's you money. Good luck.

They're going to have to learn sometime. Spending on a trombone is chump change compared to some string instruments. Dan Oberloh could send you some pictures of what an adult child could do to an instrument. Nothing like a MS choir concert. 2 glasses of wine before leaving (spouse driving), earplugs.......... He's going to be old enough to drive in 4 yrs. I was running a 16 hp Bolens tractor with a 3 blade deck at his age.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:50 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 23, 2017, 04:29PMRight now the kid has tried a couple of large bore pro horns and some rather small bore less than pro horns. He might like a Bach 36 or Conn 79H (or not). But he has tried the 88H and likes it.

I like the idea of a $500 Blessing B88 to use at school. Something that will see the bad side and take the knocks for the good horn. The good horn can be used for practicing, lessons, and concerts. If he's careful with it, the Conn could see him through college. Even if he majors in music.
This is sage advice. Buy him the lovely 88H for practice at home and his future needs, also buy him an B88 to take to school. As I read through the tread this exact formula was manifesting itself in my mind, but Bruce put it in words before I had a chance.

The B88 is a great and tough copy of the Conn 88H, and until very recently was also made in Elkhart. It is 100% fine for use in high school let alone grade school. The Conn he could use through university and into this professional career if that is what he eventually chooses.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:00 pm

Quote from: schlitzbeer on Apr 23, 2017, 09:07PMThey're going to have to learn sometime. Spending on a trombone is chump change compared to some string instruments. Dan Oberloh could send you some pictures of what an adult child could do to an instrument. Nothing like a MS choir concert. 2 glasses of wine before leaving (spouse driving), earplugs.......... He's going to be old enough to drive in 4 yrs. I was running a 16 hp Bolens tractor with a 3 blade deck at his age.
Yeah, but that's no reasoning to justify the demise of a spectacular instrument that is no longer made. Also, it's not necessarily him that is the concern, but rather some of the other 12 YOs in the band that have no respect for ... well ... anything.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:11 am

Quote from: BillO on Apr 23, 2017, 10:00PMYeah, but that's no reasoning to justify the demise of a spectacular instrument that is no longer made. Also, it's not necessarily him that is the concern, but rather some of the other 12 YOs in the band that have no respect for ... well ... anything.

Lots of things are destroyed by people everyday, of all ages. I also stated I had a school horn and a home horn. WHERE did I say he should have it around other 12 yr olds? What's the cost of a decent string instrument , bow, case, and accessories for a MS strings student? He's playing at HS level now on a euphonium, according to his teacher. Do we start kids on tuba mouthpieces? I like what Bruce has said on the Blessing. Each kid is going to develop at a different pace.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:16 am

Quote from: Bjroosevelt on Apr 23, 2017, 04:00PMYou guys are great, but you have to understand that my son's preference is not to have a shiny instrument. He'd actually want to get the lacquer removed. He has it in his head that a lacquer free horn has a more mellow sound - which is true, isn't it. Have a Brass Band in our home town, and they are pretty good. When Wycliffe Gordon is soloing, my kid goes nuts. Even listens to Gordon on Apple Radio.

No need for any additional comments on mouthpieces.....he's gonna get a new one. When we decide on the horn, we can continue the mouthpiece conversation.

You don't strip the lacquer on vintage Conns... that is part of how they play. You can strip a Bach if you want. Lacquer saves a lot of cleaning.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:41 am

1) I'm no expert in stripping lacquer. My point being that my son has not had a strong affinity for shiny new. He wants something that has great sound.

2) No need to worry about whether we are going to spend $3,000 on a new horn. That isn't in the budget. We can get a new Yamaha 446G for just under $2,000.....so that is the upper limit on the budget. Will likely spend significantly less than that.

3) Bill You are right. Strings are more expensive. Even Euphoniums are nearly twice the price as trombones. Dad counts himself lucky for being in the trombone forum rather than the Euphonium or Tuba forum.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:48 am

well i think i have THE ANSWER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
----------------------525 b /f not too eexpensive
responsive older looking --conn
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the fabulous CONN 50H !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OR THE COOLEST EVER VARIANT
RED BELL NICKLE SLIDE BOW model 75h maybe
got one here and its FUNKY ---only napping dream states can come up with
these ideal solutions
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started thinking 50h 50h ---HEY WAIT A MINUTE --WATTABOUT THAT WEIRD ONE ?????!!!!!!!
----------------
AARON IS COMING SOON TO PICK UP TWO ELKHART 88H ''E'' AND ''H''
oh yeah his sons just happen to be named ELMO AND HANK
[[[[[[[[[[

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:59 am

well everybody has forgotten the good ol 50h
i have had a couple
they play muchlike a 6h loook like a mini 71h
-------
bigger but not massive ...conn character all the way !!!!!!!!
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sometime last year i got a variant [not the first time]
gotta be abilene from the mystery period twilight zoone
the straight version i think was the 76h CENTURY
----------------------
i looked for model number when it came in --but was elusive -
so i think i am sending it in to aaron maybe w the REYNOLDS HI-FI !!!!!

ttf_Bjroosevelt · Post by **ttf_Bjroosevelt** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:16 pm

..........so I tell my kid we are thinking about road tripping to St. Louis. He asked, "Why?" I said that there was a shop there which specialized in used trombones. "They have a bunch you can test out. There are only a couple like it in the country."

"Oh, is it DJ Kennedy?"............out of babes mouths.......

He's all in!

Yes, even he knows "The Man" from the TromboneForum.

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:47 pm

Enjoy the trip and the experience. Trombone shopping with a purchase in mind is so much fun.