Comparing Axial flow/Thayer valve brands

[BrianJohnston]

Has anyone tested many if not "all" of the axial flow/thayer valves side by side. I'm curious if anyone can describe how the different brand AF/T work, what did you like, what didn't you like, what did you notice... etc.

[Burgerbob]

Uh oh, you've activated the anti-axial activists!

Anyway, I've got some time on most of the axials out there, though less on some. Here's my thoughts:


1st generation Stainless O.E. Thayers

Pros: open feel, addicting to play. Amazing sound, lots of color. The reason why they took off, I think.

Cons: Usually built incorrectly, with the tab on the backplate being too large and keeping the lock ring from sealing the valve. Also pretty inconsistent in general with clearances. Most of these are super, duper leaky from stock and nearly impossible to service now. When they are leaky, not fun to play at all (this is the reason most anti-axial activists don't like axials in general, I think). Heavy.


2nd generation (I know these generations are probably wrong... sorry everyone) aluminum O.E. Thayers

Pros: Lighter, quicker action than the previous full-core stainless valves. Sound has a really cool color to it- these are magical on a good Bach, though it's a lighter sound than the stainless. Less air required to play them well.

Cons: Corrosion problems with cores when the coating comes off. Plenty are pretty trashed at this point, hard to service as well with a similar lack of parts available. These are not as open feeling as the stainless valves- I think this could be a con or a pro, but side-by-side with a Greenhoe, these actually feel less open in the low range on a 42 for instance.


TVI Thayers: Similar in most ways to the 2nd gen O.E.s. Not sure of physical differences, though I know there are a few.


Edwards axials

Pros: Simple to play, kind of a gold standard. Open feeling. Usually pretty good action. Some important innovations over the original O.E. designs that make them a bit more reliable and easier to set up. Pretty consistent. Also possible to have replaced or serviced by the factory, big plus!

Cons: A less interesting color (probably more down to the instruments they are on) than previous iterations. Again, probably down to the horns themselves, but just less inspiring than some other valves. Lots of older sets are completely clapped out, and due to some of those innovations, are not really able to be brought back into spec. Edwards will want you to just buy a new valve set instead.


Shires axials

Pros: Brass cores give a really cool sound color, with a nice medium open feel. A more inspiring valve to play than the Edwards axials.

Cons: Heavy with heavier action than most of the valves here in my experience. Seems to be problems with modern valve sets, with the F side being too long from the factory on bass valves.


Instrument Innovation axials or Olsen axials or Infinity Valves

Pros: Finally, a valve with real, big time changes from the original design. Ball bearings take the brunt of the bearing force instead of a cone-shaped surface on the valve core and casing, as well as the bearing in the back. Rejoice! Open feel and a really great sound. Much quicker and more predictable action than any of the previous iterations. Actual manufacturer with spare parts in existence for all the bits you can think of.

Cons: Hard to set up. Most Infinity valves from Bach are NOT set up correctly and feel like completely butt to play. Sometimes they get it right, but I'm not convinced they actually know how to do it. As I said, if they are not set up correctly with the correct seal, they don't really center and delete a lot of sound from the instrument (much like any of the above). Also, like the Olsen rotor, can be used with no lubrication- the ball bearings will give you the feeling that they are in great shape, but due to no lube they won't seal well at all and will play badly. Run into this a few times myself. Ball bearings do make a little noise. Heavy.


Bosc axials

Pros: Look cool. Seem to play well on the couple horns I've played for a second.

Cons: Hard to service in the US, I would imagine. Not sure where you get them except for modern Haags and a couple other euro horns.


Overall axials:

Pros: Best valve legato of any design currently out there. One of the best colors introduced to the open and engaged instrument. A 42T that is set up well is just better in almost every way than a 42B- just as efficient but more even and actually easier to play.

Cons: Most of the other things! I think the largest problem is how hard they are to set up correctly, which affects the most important characteristics of the instrument. This pushes a lot of people away, them having played a dry, clapped out O.E. Thayer and finding it really unfun to make sound on. Too loose and the horn has no core, takes too much air, out of tune. Too tight (yes, this is possible), and an axial is tighter than a small rotor and is not open at all down low.


My choice currently is the Olsen axial- I have them on my main bass trombone, which is probably the best instrument I own. But I had it commissioned and built by one of the few people that really understands the axial and the Olsen particularly.

I now stay away from older O.E., Edwards, TVI, etc valved instruments unless they are pretty cheap... very few of these survivors are in good shape, and most are impossible to save in their current form. At best, they can be swapped out for Olsen axials at some expense.

[BrianJohnston]

Uh oh, you've activated the anti-axial activists!

Anyway, I've got some time on most of the axials out there, though less on some. Here's my thoughts:


1st generation Stainless O.E. Thayers

Pros: open feel, addicting to play. Amazing sound, lots of color. The reason why they took off, I think.

Cons: Usually built incorrectly, with the tab on the backplate being too large and keeping the lock ring from sealing the valve. Also pretty inconsistent in general with clearances. Most of these are super, duper leaky from stock and nearly impossible to service now. When they are leaky, not fun to play at all (this is the reason most anti-axial activists don't like axials in general, I think). Heavy.


2nd generation (I know these generations are probably wrong... sorry everyone) aluminum O.E. Thayers

Pros: Lighter, quicker action than the previous full-core stainless valves. Sound has a really cool color to it- these are magical on a good Bach, though it's a lighter sound than the stainless. Less air required to play them well.

Cons: Corrosion problems with cores when the coating comes off. Plenty are pretty trashed at this point, hard to service as well with a similar lack of parts available. These are not as open feeling as the stainless valves- I think this could be a con or a pro, but side-by-side with a Greenhoe, these actually feel less open in the low range on a 42 for instance.


TVI Thayers: Similar in most ways to the 2nd gen O.E.s. Not sure of physical differences, though I know there are a few.


Edwards axials

Pros: Simple to play, kind of a gold standard. Open feeling. Usually pretty good action. Some important innovations over the original O.E. designs that make them a bit more reliable and easier to set up. Pretty consistent. Also possible to have replaced or serviced by the factory, big plus!

Cons: A less interesting color (probably more down to the instruments they are on) than previous iterations. Again, probably down to the horns themselves, but just less inspiring than some other valves. Lots of older sets are completely clapped out, and due to some of those innovations, are not really able to be brought back into spec. Edwards will want you to just buy a new valve set instead.


Shires axials

Pros: Brass cores give a really cool sound color, with a nice medium open feel. A more inspiring valve to play than the Edwards axials.

Cons: Heavy with heavier action than most of the valves here in my experience. Seems to be problems with modern valve sets, with the F side being too long from the factory on bass valves.


Instrument Innovation axials or Olsen axials or Infinity Valves

Pros: Finally, a valve with real, big time changes from the original design. Ball bearings take the brunt of the bearing force instead of a cone-shaped surface on the valve core and casing, as well as the bearing in the back. Rejoice! Open feel and a really great sound. Much quicker and more predictable action than any of the previous iterations. Actual manufacturer with spare parts in existence for all the bits you can think of.

Cons: Hard to set up. Most Infinity valves from Bach are NOT set up correctly and feel like completely butt to play. Sometimes they get it right, but I'm not convinced they actually know how to do it. As I said, if they are not set up correctly with the correct seal, they don't really center and delete a lot of sound from the instrument (much like any of the above). Also, like the Olsen rotor, can be used with no lubrication- the ball bearings will give you the feeling that they are in great shape, but due to no lube they won't seal well at all and will play badly. Run into this a few times myself. Ball bearings do make a little noise. Heavy.


Bosc axials

Pros: Look cool. Seem to play well on the couple horns I've played for a second.

Cons: Hard to service in the US, I would imagine. Not sure where you get them except for modern Haags and a couple other euro horns.


Overall axials:

Pros: Best valve legato of any design currently out there. One of the best colors introduced to the open and engaged instrument. A 42T that is set up well is just better in almost every way than a 42B- just as efficient but more even and actually easier to play.

Cons: Most of the other things! I think the largest problem is how hard they are to set up correctly, which affects the most important characteristics of the instrument. This pushes a lot of people away, them having played a dry, clapped out O.E. Thayer and finding it really unfun to make sound on. Too loose and the horn has no core, takes too much air, out of tune. Too tight (yes, this is possible), and an axial is tighter than a small rotor and is not open at all down low.


My choice currently is the Olsen axial- I have them on my main bass trombone, which is probably the best instrument I own. But I had it commissioned and built by one of the few people that really understands the axial and the Olsen particularly.

I now stay away from older O.E., Edwards, TVI, etc valved instruments unless they are pretty cheap... very few of these survivors are in good shape, and most are impossible to save in their current form. At best, they can be swapped out for Olsen axials at some expense.

Holy cow. This is incredible. I knew i'd get a good answer from you. Thanks much!

[hornbuilder]

I would concur with most of what has been said. But something to consider, is that it is really not completely possible to evaluate a valve performance against another unless you can use each of them on the same bell, tuning slide and handslide. The horn the valves are attached to will "color" the perception to a fair degree.

This applies to "any" valve type.

Getzen and Shires valves are made, essentially, the same way. A brass multi piece core which is then plated after machining. The original Thayers were made this way as well, with a plated, nickel silver core. The casing is stainless steel, not the rotor.

[Burgerbob]

The original Thayers were made this way as well, with a plated, nickel silver core. The casing is stainless steel, not the rotor.

Yes, I left this out. My bad.

[tbonesullivan]

Are any companies still making the Aluminum Core Thayer valves? I believe the early examples were cast and used some strange teflon type surface coating, which would often degrade. Later aluminum cores were machined and polished aluminum, which was then anodized, a fairly hard coating that was much more durable than the original type. All of the aluminum core Thayers however do not have a removable bearing in the backing plate, so once that wears you've gotta replace the whole thing.

I can say that a properly setup Axial Flow valve is really a great thing. The problem, as noted by Burgerbob, is getting one from Bach, who for some reason can't get it right. They may also still be refusing to make a slightly shorter version of the slide receiver to go with the longer axial flow valves.

[hornbuilder]

Bill Milashius in MN is making anodized aluminum rotors, using Ed Thayer's design. Courtois use them on their horns. I have an example here. They look very good! Well made, being machined from billet, not cast, with very solid anodizing. Have yet to mount it on a horn.

[hornbuilder]

Milashius rotor

[elmsandr]

I'll mainly post to mainly echo Aiden's comments.

Axial Valves I currently own:
-tenor Ed Thayer Aluminum Core '98(?). Fine, gets a little slow if I don't keep it clean.
-bass set Ed Thayer Al cores from '06(?). These bug me as they eat oil. Have to pay attention to them every time I play.

I have also owned:
-Edwards Dependent Thayer set ('99-'13?). This was probably my favorite playing Axial Section. Felt great. Changed the horn with a Bach flare, liked it a lot, but I liked the Bach horn with the in-lines a little more, so I sold them. The valve cores themselves have changed a bit over the years; venting, bushings in endplates. Generally improving over time. I find it revealing that their newer horns are moving to more advanced rotors and away from axials.
-Older Thayer Bass Set with Al Cores that I converted to Dependent to fit on a beat up 60H. Played fun on that horn, but overall it wasn't for me.

Some axial things I've played:
-Shires; Seemed fine, I only really had "trade show" time on these, so I can't say much. But I do have some Trubores that I like a lot.
-Bach setup Infinity Valves on a 50; I tried to fall in love with these a few years ago. I wanted so much to find them awesome and have some reason to convert my horn(s) over. I found nothing compelling sound or playing-wise with them. The valve or the setup? I don't know. I was disappointed. It is hard to have a bias and a want to change and to walk away without even the desire to really learn more. This was when I sought out the Trubores.

Overall, I love the valve on the 42. And there is really nothing quite like it on a 50 when you want to bring the heat... but I am not sure I will ever do them again. Require more oil and attention than rotors, can sometimes be too open... I have some Trubores (a single and dependent) that I really like on bass, but I'm also unsure of that as a long term solution. Any valve that requires the seal to be on two different surfaces will have a mechanical challenge that may just be unnecessary. I like the rotor that I can almost completely ignore, clean once a decade and never have to worry about it working. That said, I find myself wanting an in-line section for a 42 to be a tweener horn, and with how well the Axial feels on a 42, I really want to build a double out of some Olsens.... or do I? I don't know and luckily I'm too cheap to start that as a project with everything else I have right now.

Cheers,
Andy

[tbonesullivan]

Milashius rotor

I have seen those before, and they do look really nice. I am not certain, but I believe he was working with Orla Ed Thayer, and got the tooling from Barbara Thayer. I actually purchased a core from them, as it was my understanding they could be used to replace the early valve cores that are losing their coating. Never got around to seeing if it fit though.

[Kbiggs]

Bill Milashius in MN is making anodized aluminum rotors, using Ed Thayer's design. Courtois use them on their horns. I have an example here. They look very good! Well made, being machined from billet, not cast, with very solid anodizing. Have yet to mount it on a horn.

I have one of Ed Thayer’s anodized aluminum rotors with chassis for a convertible 42. (I currently play on a different chassis with an Instrument Innovations/Olsen rotor.) I like axial, and played it for many years. It was initially set up with Ed’s neckpipe, the kind with the bends in it. Many of those neckpipes were cylindrical—very little if any taper to them. When I had some more work done a few years ago, my tech replaced that with a tapered pipe (either an Olsen or a Shires, I don’t remember.) It plays much better with the tapered neckpipe.

I moved a little while ago and that chassis is still in storage. I’ll try to get some pics, but I’m out of town for a few weeks.

[Kbiggs]

Tangent: a few details about the early history of axial flow valves. Not strictly pertinent for the topic of playability, but interesting. Between Aidan’s Gen I and Gen II, there were a few variations. Not necessarily in chronological order, as there was some overlap:

Gen Ia: Ed’s design and production.

Gen Ib: Ed contracted with Jim Nydigger’s company B.J. Enterprises (now Metal Technologies) of Albany Oregon to manufacture and install valves. These were brass with nickel plating. They were heavy, and the cores tended to seat improperly, leading to wear at the bottom of the core (the narrow end of the truncated pyramid), which then needed replacement. The installers at Nydigger’s company were not instrument techs, and knew very little about instrument manufacture. Many people experienced problems with these valves and the installation.

Gen Ic: For a very limited time, Ed produced a valve with a hard plastic core. It worked but had problems with sticking, and needed cleaning and maintenance. Ironically, the motivation behind the plastic core was that it wouldn’t need oil, but the brass housing collected more debris and verdigris with the plastic core IIRC. Overall, it was not a successful design, so Ed abandoned it.

Gen Id: For a period, Ed manufactured his own valves concurrently with B.J. Enterprises. I believe these were also the cores made of brass with nickel plating.

Legal problems came after this, with suits and countersuits. The patent expired, and then other companies started manufacturing their own versions.

There might be even more variations. I suspect that an instrument tech will run across one of these variations, but most of the early valves are probably stored away, dead, or have been recycled. Someone who is more familiar with the history of axial flow valves, and the lawsuits between Ed Thayer and Jim Nydigger, will know more.

[Burgerbob]

I've seen a few of the plastic core valves at Sandhagen's. Very cool.

[elmsandr]

Not sure where these fit in the mix of that, but there is some plastic cores in these and a really silly spring clip retention. Have never had a plan to mount them... yet.

Old.JPG

Cheers,
Andy

[Kbiggs]

Not sure where these fit in the mix of that, but there is some plastic cores in these and a really silly spring clip retention. Have never had a plan to mount them... yet.

Old.JPG

Cheers,
Andy

Yep, those are the ones. IIRC, there’s also a spring inside pressing down on the core to maintain the seal.

Warning: don’t take it apart unless you’re familiar with assembling and disassembling these things. I did that on a friend’s horn, and it was a LOOONG half-hour before we finally got it put back together.

[WGWTR180]

And not one anti-axial activist comment!!!

[dwn8ve]

Milashius rotor

I have seen those before, and they do look really nice. I am not certain, but I believe he was working with Orla Ed Thayer, and got the tooling from Barbara Thayer. I actually purchased a core from them, as it was my understanding they could be used to replace the early valve cores that are losing their coating. Never got around to seeing if it fit though.

I know Bill Milashius well and I'll be seeing him tomorrow to check out some mouthpieces he wants me to see. I've got two tenors and bass with his valves installed. All three setups play great.

You are correct that he worked with Ed and Barb. He had helped with some of their parts machining and eventually took on more of the machining until he was handling most for them. When they were ready to be done he continued the production, making some of his own changes to the machining process to help make a better product.

Dimensions for the valve did not change much if at all which will allow some compatibility for the cores, but he has usually recommending replacing the casing as well, but there is some success just doing the core, depends on when the valve was made.

[Siver]

I have a Thayer from circa 1984, patent #4112806, stamped "46." The valve (inner part) is all brass and has always been that way - I got it new. It is in good shape. Currently not on a horn. Just the valve and no extra tubing. I wonder how many of this model were produced and how many are still around?

[Burgerbob]

I have a Thayer from circa 1984, patent #4112806, stamped "46." The valve (inner part) is all brass and has always been that way - I got it new. It is in good shape. Currently not on a horn. Just the valve and no extra tubing. I wonder how many of this model were produced and how many are still around?

Post a picture? I'd love to see an early one like that.

[octavposaune]

I have a correction for 1988-1990 OE Thayers. They had both a Stainless casing AND stainless cores with brazed in brass ports. Some 1987 stainless rotor cores had chrome plated bearing areas. The original ad literature (which I have) states the material and it lines up with what I have seen. Aidans old Stainless set had stainless cores that were very hard to level the flat (wide) end of the core. Machining capabilities in the late 80s were a bit different than now and the material is very hard to machine. It would have been better to finish with a CNC grinder and a lot of coolant. These few years of production 88-90 were the coolest early Thayers. Everything before hand changed year to year or even month to month. The other stainless cored thayers were/are made by Schilke (developed before acquiring Greenhoe) and the Chinese made Shires Q series which use a magnetic stainless for their rotor cores. Magnetic stainless sometimes rusts a little, but another positive thing is that the Chinese made Q series axials are quite well machined.

Whats even more weird is that Ed after the Nydigger split had electroless nickel plated aluminum cores!! I had a few, absolutely crazy. They nearly bankrupted him. I dont think any survived on a horn. The ones I had were just cores and the plating failed.

There are some outliers like solid.cast bronze rotors which are so heavy using them causes the horn to shift enough that it could effect your embouchure etc...(they were oblong, so it shift mass a lot).

This is a fun thread...I love Olsen Axials too, but I know how to fit them...but I also have other valves etc...

Benn

[wayne88ny]

I'm glad that Benn brought up the 88-90 O.E. Thayer stainless steel valves. The one I have has a hollow core with brass tubes. The casing is also stainless steel. Chuck McAlexander installed the valve in 1990. 33 years later and it still works great. Light and fast, great sound. I asked Steve Shires about these valves and he said there were "production problems", which I took to mean they were difficult to manufacture. As Benn stated, Schilke had a similar stainless steel valve on the ST-20 trombone. The Schilke literature stated that they spent two years developing the valve. Talk about reinventing the wheel. It's too bad no one is making a valve like this anymore. Based on my experience, this valve is the gold standard.

The other axial flow valve available in 1990 was the dreaded Thayer Valve II, developed by Ed Thayer. Instead of a core, The Thayer Valve II had a Delrin disk that seated on the large end of the casing and a Delrin ring that seated on the small end of the casing. Brass tubes directed the air through holes in the disk. The valve was a disaster and was discontinued.

This is just my opinion, but I believe Nydigger (i.e. O.E. Thayer) changed to aluminum cores to cut costs and so he could lower his prices to compete with the TVI (Thayer Valve International) valves.

I have a Courtois Legend Ac-420 (an older one, made in France) with a (non-aluminum) TVI valve. The core is only a partial cone. I assume it was made that way to make it lighter. It works well.

Jeff Gittleson, the owner of The Long Island Brass Company, uses the Bosc valve when a customer wants an axial flow attachment. If anyone wants to obtain a Bosc Valve, I would contact Jeff.

Mike Olsen, owner of Instrument Innovations, is a real stand up guy. Everything he makes is guaranteed for life (I know this because he told me so). So, if you ever have a problem with this valves, or anything else he makes, give him a call and he'll take care of it. I don't know if the guarantee includes the Bach Infinity Valves (they might be covered under Bach's Warranty) , you'd have to ask him.

This is slightly off topic, but somebody has to say it.

I know many of you view James & Marie Nydigger (owners of the O.E. Thayer Company) as villains that victimized Orla Ed Thayer regarding the Thayer Valve patent. This originates from an article in the Winter 1998 ITA Journal based on (incorrect) information provided by Mr. Thayer. The "Corrections and Retractions" section on page 30 of the Winter 1999 ITA Journal paints Mr. Thayer in a very diffferent light.

[fwbassbone]

Well Brian I agree with everything Aidan said above. I never liked Axials until I played the Shires and played that horn for several years. I did find the Infinity valve not to my liking but would like to try a horn that was adjusted right. I like my Edwards B502AR and my Greenhoe and have no plans to buy an axial horn unless it's another Shires. The Butler I have on order has the Instrument Innovations rotors so likely won't be getting a Shires anytime soon. I guess it boils down to if you dig, play it. If you don't, don't.

[greenbean]

Uh oh, you've activated the anti-axial activists!
...

Why wouldn't it? Worst valves ever!!

[Wilco]

Not a hater of the valve but what I don’t like about the Thayer valve is the long travel of the linkages. Which brand has the shortest linkage travel?

[Matt K]

Gotta be the CL valve Conn offers.

[hyperbolica]

The axials I've played have played wonderfully. But they're generally at shows, and are adjusted and maintained by people who know how to deal with them. All that goes away when you take them home. It's all the non-playing aspects of the valves that keep me playing rotors. As a mechanical engineer, the design is nightmarish - too much disassembly required, and too much risk of failure due to wear. I have 70 year old rotors that work without hassle. Trombones should be basically maintenance free, aside from the slide, and periodic cleaning. Too tight high maintenance rotors same deal.

[Burgerbob]

Gotta be the CL valve Conn offers.

That's a quick throw, but not an axial.

I do have to say that axials don't have a long throw for me- maybe stock Bach 50T3s or something, but the ones I have had recently have all had normal throws. I've had rotors and hagmann horns with longer or worse throw lengths several times.

[Matt K]

Oh I see. I thought they meant generally. Is there much of a difference in throw between thayers? Doesn’t seem like much room for differences due to their design

[Burgerbob]

Yes, I know the Bollinger set from Shires has a different geometry and stiffer springs for a shorter throw.

[Posaunus]

Gotta be the CL valve Conn offers.

[tbonesullivan]

Gotta be the CL valve Conn offers.

I've always wondered how much the "extra" part of the Y-tube influences how the trombone plays. I mean people love them, so it can't be doing horrible things, but i can't think of any other designs that have an extra port like that.

[Matt K]

Gotta be the CL valve Conn offers.

I've always wondered how much the "extra" part of the Y-tube influences how the trombone plays. I mean people love them, so it can't be doing horrible things, but i can't think of any other designs that have an extra port like that.

I almost had one mounted and my tech at the time wondered the same thing. I ended up picking a shires rotor at the same time so I never got to give it much of an in-depth try!

[elmsandr]

I have one mounted on my 42 chassis as my valve museum…. It plays well. I think it would be difficult to separate the Y segment from the other design choices to determine the net effect of just that variable. Large valve, aluminum core, etc….

Cheers,
Andy