Short cork barrels... why?

[TromboneMonkey]

This is a question for instrument designers/builders who may know. Why, especially on many older horns, were cork barrels made so short? It makes holding the horns downright painful after long periods.

For that matter, surely Minick and Williams weren't the only two humans on earth to consider ergonomics prior to the end of the 20th century-- why are almost all horns made with straight braces?

Are these features simply easier or cheaper to produce? It seems like it would be easy enough to increase the cork barrel length and to put a diagonal crossbeam on the slide grip to improve ergonomics.

[JohnL]

For that matter, surely Minick and Williams weren't the only two humans on earth to consider ergonomics prior to the end of the 20th century-- why are almost all horns made with straight braces?

Olds made some effort in that direction with their streamlined braces.

[TromboneMonkey]

Fair point: I love the grip on my Recording; the streamlined handslide brace feels nice too between the thumb and forefinger.

[harrisonreed]

Courtois makes the shortest cork barrels I've ever held. Most uncomfortable trombone to hold, beyond even the 36H alto.

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[hyperbolica]

If its not painful, you must be doing it wrong. Ergonomics simply wasn't a thing. We have things pretty cushy now, except trombone design hasn't improved much in ergonomic terms. People from earlier generations just expected discomfort and never thought much about it.

Olds, Conn 48h, 38h, 100h, Courtois 402, some Wessex horns (maybe Martin Urbie?) have had curved gussets or curved braces. Balance front/back and proper distance between top slide brace and main bell brace are more important to me than curved grips.

Every now and then i catch my pinky in the slide, and its always a reminder keep your fingers up high on the slide. Some horns have longer bottom barrel than top. 78h is that way I think.

[TromboneMonkey]

Balance front/back and proper distance between top slide brace and main bell brace are more important to me than curved grips.

I'd agree with that, but to me the cork barrel length is more important than either, because it's physically painful in the short-to-medium term.

Either way, both cork barrel length and brace shape issues can be solved/mitigated with a simple cross brace, like BAC does on the Mason horn. Just boggles my mind that it's not more common.

[hyperbolica]

Not to defend short barrels, but the longer the barrel, the further out the brace on the hand slide. That effects muscle memory playing and intonation. Some older horns have a hook on the top of the lower barrel to keep your pinky from getting sliced or snakebit in the slide. People with big hands probably have more trouble with this than the rest of us.

[whitbey]

I have large hands. Many years ago I had my tech make a curved brace similar to the Williams that is soldered on. Works really great. I put a piece of wire loom harness over it for a nice cushion. Many pics in my profile.

[harrisonreed]

I'd agree with that, but to me the cork barrel length is more important than either, because it's physically painful in the short-to-medium term.

Either way, both cork barrel length and brace shape issues can be solved/mitigated with a simple cross brace, like BAC does on the Mason horn. Just boggles my mind that it's not more common.

Love that horn but do not like the wire they use for the right hand grip. Not comfortable to use.

[TromboneMonkey]

I'd agree with that, but to me the cork barrel length is more important than either, because it's physically painful in the short-to-medium term.

Either way, both cork barrel length and brace shape issues can be solved/mitigated with a simple cross brace, like BAC does on the Mason horn. Just boggles my mind that it's not more common.

Love that horn but do not like the wire they use for the right hand grip. Not comfortable to use.

Hard agree, but I'm super into the L hand grip.

[TromboneMonkey]

I have large hands. Many years ago I had my tech make a curved brace similar to the Williams that is soldered on. Works really great. I put a piece of wire loom harness over it for a nice cushion. Many pics in my profile.

That looks like the optimal solution. Beautiful!

Reminds me of the B&S grip. Maybe they copied you!

[pfrancis]

Slight tangent: The positioning of the angled/curved left hand brace can impact slide alignment setup. The Mason horn appears to get around this by making grip as the “outer” tube in the equation. For clarification: most other makers use a flange or brazed pot with the tube held inside.

[TromboneMonkey]

Slight tangent: The positioning of the angled/curved left hand brace can impact slide alignment setup.

Is that because it "pulls" on the tubes at an angle, which puts uneven stress on the slide tubes? Is this why most manufacturers won't do it?

[whitbey]

Slight tangent: The positioning of the angled/curved left hand brace can impact slide alignment setup. The Mason horn appears to get around this by making grip as the “outer” tube in the equation. For clarification: most other makers use a flange or brazed pot with the tube held inside.

The brace needs to be the same size as the other braces or it will bend in when you grip.

[pfrancis]

To be clear I was only referring to the added efforts related to building/rebuilding/aligning a slide with an additional contact point (or two). It would be another component to account for in a good slide setup and necessarily take more time to do it well. The Mason horn pictured overcomes the issue by placing the areas for alignment inside the cross tube, similar to Getzen 4147IB; giving a smooth(er) grip in the hand and keeping the heat away from the critical elements for slide alignment.

[pfrancis]

Back to cork barrels, I’m pretty sure 100h has different length cork barrels (short on mouthpiece side/long on bell side). Though I suppose this could be included in Minnick designs.