Different valves sizes and slide widths (or wearing a thick collar)- how to deal with it

[Burgerbob]

I see this dilemma with many players- they transition to or try out an instrument with a different geometry. Valves are larger (or smaller), slide is wider, etc. They try the new thing and they immediately don't like it- "valves poke into my neck," "I don't like wide slides," etc.

It's hard to get out of the habit of holding the horn the same way- same hand and hand position. Not every horn is the same, though!

I play a ton of different trombones, and it took me a while to figure out what my body was telling me, and why sometimes one wouldn't work.

This seems stupidly simple, but it has helped at least a couple people... just rotate the trombone to a different angle to keep the mouthpiece on the face the same way.

Here's me holding one of my rotor basses, and one of my axial basses:



Now, I will say there's no way to deal with a slide that's too narrow or a valve that leaves no room. I couldn't play my Bach 36K because the valve and slide width just didn't match, even with my smaller size neck. I'm sure there are plenty that can't play the Conn 30H or 32H width.

But if you run into unfamiliar horns with different ergonomics... just rotate. Let the mouthpiece mesh with your face the usual way and change the arm instead.

[calcbone]

+1 for this.

The only horn I’ve had a slight bit of trouble with digging into my neck is the 3BF (narrow slide + trigger assembly mounted to the edge), but it isn’t too bad.

However, I do find myself adjusting my left hand grip based on how front-heavy certain horns are…like my Bach 8 with no counterweight, or 3B Silversonic since its bell is a bit heavier, compared to my Bach 36 with a counterweight. Whatever the ergonomic issue may be, it’s a good idea to adjust your hand/other positioning to avoid any extra tension in the wrist, shoulder, etc.

I’ll see if I can take pictures of a few of them later.

[Matt K]

The issue I typically have for non rotary valves is the return tube. I stopped using a tru-bore because I couldn’t get a thumb rest that would work with it but also not have the return tube hitting my hand. I think if their tenors had the same wrap as their basses, there’d be a nonzero chance I’d still be playing the truebore.

Edit: AUTOCORRECT

[GabrielRice]

That's fine until you have tendinitis in your left wrist (like me). Rotating the instrument the way you need to for your axial basses will make it impossible for me to play in a short period of time.

[Burgerbob]

That's fine until you have tendinitis in your left wrist (like me). Rotating the instrument the way you need to for your axial basses will make it impossible for me to play in a short period of time.

Yup, that would also be a mitigating factor.

[JeffBone44]

I once had a narrow T47 Shires slide with an axial valve. I was able to play it, but it got to be uncomfortable with the valve digging into my neck.

[elmsandr]

Great opening to a post I was just queueing up about ergonomics! Though I wanted to focus on something a little different.

For wrist posture, we want it to be fairly neutral to avoid carpal tunnel issues.. this includes both flexing and extension of the joint (tilting the palm up and down) and avoiding radial and ulnar deviations (bending to one side or the other). But what dimensions effect those on the instrument and do we pay attention to them?

One that may not get enough consideration is mouthpiece length between Rim and the insertion line. Some shorter mouthpieces drive one of my F attachment levers into my face (looking at you Yamaha Yeo).

But how about the relationship between the mouthpiece gage line and the slide cross bar and the slide tenon gage line? Big stack-up there that will set a lot of the deviation of the hand position. But how you grip that cross bar will depend a lot on….

Bell section handslide gage line to main bell brace and lever pivot point. ANOTHER huge stack-up of tolerances. My thumb can only be about 1.5” from the flat edge of my palm…. I like to keep that straight and under the slide cross bar. There’s a lot of different dimensions and designs out there that do not accomplish that. I’ve now actively decided to adjust how I am gripping my Thayer horn as a result of just taking some basic dimensions and looking at wrist deviations.

Started thinking about this as I was looking at three horns on stands (not all mine) and the lever position relative to mouthpiece rims was ridiculous. One had the lever above the rim sitting on the stand, another had it at the mouthpiece throat…. No wonder they all felt so strange and different.

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

Started thinking about this as I was looking at three horns on stands (not all mine) and the lever position relative to mouthpiece rims was ridiculous. One had the lever above the rim sitting on the stand, another had it at the mouthpiece throat…. No wonder they all felt so strange and different.

Cheers,
Andy

Yes, my F levers are all completely different... it's something I can adjust to but I definitely have preferences.

[elmsandr]

This got me putting my engineering hat on and thinking of developing a different type of lever to adjust pivots and linkage attachment lengths to allow for improved ergo. Not hard, but hard to do without adding a ton of weight.

[GabrielRice]

This got me putting my engineering hat on and thinking of developing a different type of lever to adjust pivots and linkage attachment lengths to allow for improved ergo. Not hard, but hard to do without adding a ton of weight.

I seem to remember somebody having a lever with a thumb piece that can slide up and down. I can't remember what manufacturer that was.

Some of the variation you see has to do with the valves themselves. Shires tends to make the lever for Axials longer than for rotors so that there's more torque to move that heavy valve core.

[bitbckt]

I seem to remember somebody having a lever with a thumb piece that can slide up and down.

My 90s era Conn 88H has this feature, which has been more of a pain that it's worth to me. The set screws they used to fix the paddle don't grip the rod particularly well, leaving it occasionally sliding/twisting on the rod.

[Burgerbob]

This got me putting my engineering hat on and thinking of developing a different type of lever to adjust pivots and linkage attachment lengths to allow for improved ergo. Not hard, but hard to do without adding a ton of weight.

Olsen makes these. I have one on my axial bass. It's a good idea, but I do have to adjust it all every so often as it drifts or loosens up. It's also near the end of its travel to be set up just right which is a drag.

[ithinknot]

My 90s era Conn 88H has this feature, which has been more of a pain that it's worth to me. The set screws they used to fix the paddle don't grip the rod particularly well, leaving it occasionally sliding/twisting on the rod.

Just file a slight flat on the rod at your chosen location and refit.

[bitbckt]

[Just file a slight flat on the rod at your chosen location and refit.

The rod isn't round. It has a V groove intended to serve this purpose, capturing the point on the two set screws.

In any event, that's neither here nor there as I don't play that horn much at all anymore, and its efficacy isn't germane to the point that adjustable height paddles have been made.

[Ozzlefinch]

You think that you have it rough? I find myself playing my 4 rotor valve trombones almost exclusively these days. I can't even figure out how to hold them properly. Photographs of other people over the years shows that there was apparently no right way to do it and everyone seemed to hold it in the most logical way possible. Few to none play them these days and if they do, I've seen no videos or otherwise showing a proper hold technique. Some used a center hold, others seem to be holding it like a big brass sandwich.

I have one with a brass strap under the valve block that apparently was for a hand rest, but it's unbalanced and causes rapid fatigue if used, but if I hold the horn balanced, then my hand interferes with the operation of valve 4 and has pokey bits that dig into the skin. My other one is logical to hold the downstream cross brace like a handle and rest the valve block on the back of my forearm. That is the most comfortable overall, but the weight of the horn is all resting on the arm and shoulder, again causing rapid fatigue.

I don't know what else to say except that some horns were designed to maximize intonation or tone with the needs of the player being secondary. I guess you'll figure it out for yourself sooner or later.

[trombonedemon]

Ergonomics is darn near everything, affects longevity and technique in the music as well. This Conn 112 isn't the pinnacle of the aforementioned . Had to find a good tech to move the f attachment lever and get the thumb rest adjusted. 90 degrees seems to be the goldilocks for weight distribution on this horn. Had to wrap the trombone slide in cushiony shoestring so I can grip the slide. I wish more things were adjustable on these horns, but chasing down loose parts would only add fuel the ergonomics crisis.