A couple more valve trombone questions.

[Gary]

I have a couple more questions regarding valve trombones. Some seem to be in the key of C, most seem to be in Bb. Would it be that:
1.) those in C are keyed mainly for playing in combos with the convenience of playing in Concert key while
2.) those pitched in Bb are more easily integrated into ensemble sections where the music is written assuming the horn is pitched in Bb?

Also, is the Yamaha lighter in weight than the others. For me, weight is a factor.

Thanks.

[JohnL]

As far as I now, it's a regional thing. I mostly see C valve 'bones in groups that play banda and similar styles.

Don't conflate the key of an instrument with the key of the music the player is reading - they're two separate things. Tenor trombones are in Bb, but they read concert pitch music. If you choose to play a C valve trombone, you'll need to learn the fingerings for a C valve trombone (so Bb would be played with the first valve, rather than open as on a Bb valve trombone). That's the way tubas work - the instrument might be in Bb, C, Eb, or F, but the music is all written in concert pitch (with exceptions for a few types of ensembles) and the tubist just uses the appropriate fingerings for the instrument he/she is playing.

That said, playing a C valve trombone means giving up the F and E natural at the bottom of the tenor trombone range - and that low F gets used a fair amount.

[Gary]

I knew the conventional trombone was pitched in Bb but written in C but all that stuff gets me confused after a point.

So, if I played valve bone in a regular section, would I have to transpose the written music, (assuming I would be reading the same music as the rest of the trombones)?

[BGuttman]

IIf you play a valve trombone pitched in Bb and reading bass clef you play the exact same parts as the rest of the trombone section. Especially in Big Band.

If you play a valve trombone pitched in Bb reading treble clef parts in Brass Band you play it just like you would play a trumpet.

If you play a valve trombone pitched in C you could read non-transposing treble clef (but down an octave) using the fingerings you know from trumpet. Such parts are extremely rare (if any exist at all). C trombones were sometimes called "Preacher trombones" since you could simply play from a hymnal with no transposition.

[Gary]

So, I would be looking for a Concert Bb trombone? In doing so, I would play printed bass clef parts, correct?

[BGuttman]

So, I would be looking for a Concert Bb trombone? In doing so, I would play printed bass clef parts, correct?

Exactly right.

[Gary]

Thank you, Bruce.

[JohnL]

I knew the conventional trombone was pitched in Bb but written in C but all that stuff gets me confused after a point.

So, if I played valve bone in a regular section, would I have to transpose the written music, (assuming I would be reading the same music as the rest of the trombones)?

Not as long as you use the correct fingerings. You read a , you play a . On a Bb valve trombone, it's first and second valve, on a C valve trombone, it's first and third valve.

That said, unless the slight weight difference is a big deal, I'd say go with Bb. That way you can use teaching materials written for bass clef baritone/euphonium (same fingerings). Lots more Bb valve trombones in circulation, so finding a nice used one should be a lot easier.

So, I would be looking for a Concert Bb trombone? In doing so, I would play printed bass clef parts, correct?

Not "Concert Bb", just "Bb".

[Gary]

"Not "Concert Bb", just "Bb". "

Well there's a distinction. "Concert" is what you play on piano while there's "written" pitch, which could be sounding anything depending on the pitch of the instrument. In other words, a Bb "Concert" is the same as a Bb on piano, while a "written" Bb on an instrument that is an Eb instrument, for example, sounds Db.

[jorymil]

"Concert" and "non-transposed" might be considered synonyms. They're used to refer to the _written_ _music_ that an instrument generally plays. The pitch listed in front of an instrument is generally its _fundamental_ _frequency_, and generally doesn't signify whether that instrument's written music is transposed or not. The pitch listed is _always_ non-transposed, i.e. "Concert key." So it's redundant to say "Concert" in front of the pitch of a musical instrument. But we'll still understand what you mean!

Trombone music is generally not written as transposing, so regardless of whether you're playing a C or Bb valve trombone, the bottom line of the bass clef is still a concert G: you won't have to transpose anything. Perhaps if you want to play music written in treble clef for Bb transposing instruments, you'll have to transpose down a full step: you see baritone/euphonium music written like this, and it could be there's trombone music written this way for brass bands as well. But it's unlikely you'll run across it in most bass clef music for trombone.

[JohnL]

Well there's a distinction. "Concert" is what you play on piano while there's "written" pitch, which could be sounding anything depending on the pitch of the instrument. In other words, a Bb "Concert" is the same as a Bb on piano, while a "written" Bb on an instrument that is an Eb instrument, for example, sounds Db.

While written pitch and instrument pitch instrument are often coincident, they're not the same thing. As I mentioned, tubas come in several keys, but tuba parts are normally written in concert pitch and the tubist just uses the appropriate fingerings for the key of tuba they're playing. Contrariwise, orchestral horn parts are written in a plethora of keys, but are normally played on a Bb/F double horn with the hornist transposing on the fly.


At any rate, I was referring to the manufacturer's nomenclature. You won't find an instrument described as a "Bb concert valve trombone", it'll just be a "Bb valve trombone"; it's understood that they're referring to concert pitch.

[Gary]

"At any rate, I was referring to the manufacturer's nomenclature. You won't find an instrument described as a "Bb concert valve trombone", it'll just be a "Bb valve trombone"; it's understood that they're referring to concert pitch."

True. Thanks.

[harrisonreed]

I remember having a heated debate with an organist about trombones being Bb instruments that read "in C". They couldn't fathom it. Trying to explain that the Bb was the fundamental pitch didn't help because they thought they knew about trumpets

[Mikebmiller]

Just say no to valve trombones and you will be fine.

[Gary]

I've heard some valve jazz trombonists who are killer. Anyway, I am fighting with some physical challenges that valve bone might ease.

[greenbean]

You might also check out the euphonium. It might be better ergonomically than a valve bone. Rich Matteson will give you an idea of what can be done with it as far as jazz goes...

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... h+matteson

[Gary]

I knew Rich. BTAIM, it's too late financially, for me to buy a Euphonium. Thanks, though.

[Finetales]

If ergonomics are the problem, valve trombone probably isn't a good solution as they are ergonomic nightmares. But a marching trombone/flugabone (which is essentially the same thing, just wrapped like a trumpet and much easier to hold) might be just the ticket.

[thecoast]

So I think I understand that the music for trombone is written in concert but the player must transpose. Assuming I am understanding correctly, Why is that? Trumpets are Bb but the music is written transposed.

[Kbiggs]

Just say no to valve trombones and you will be fine.

I think Juan Tizol, Ashley Alexander and Rob McConnell would disagree.

[Kbiggs]

@Gary: If holding the instrument is the problem, whether it’s a trombone or a euphonium, then you might want to consider the ergobone: https://www.ergobrass.com/

It has saved the careers of more than one trombonist with left arm and shoulder problems.

[Burgerbob]

So I think I understand that the music for trombone is written in concert but the player must transpose. Assuming I am understanding correctly, Why is that? Trumpets are Bb but the music is written transposed.

No. If you're playing any trombone, you see a C, you play a C.

There's transposing treble music out there for trombone, but that's the same transposition as trumpet (down an octave of course) and pretty rare.

[BGuttman]

Well, it's not so rare if you are playing British Brass Band music.

Trumpet players play transposed treble music on a valve trombone because it's the same fingering but plays an octave lower. Treble clef trombone or baritone is a way for trumpet players to play in our register.

[LeTromboniste]

So I think I understand that the music for trombone is written in concert but the player must transpose. Assuming I am understanding correctly, Why is that? Trumpets are Bb but the music is written transposed.

Trombones don't need to transpose. The need for the player to transpose arises when the part and the instrument don't match conceptually. Except in the context of British brass band, trombones think in concert pitch (a first position Bb is a sounding Bb) and read untransposed music, so they don't need to transpose. Trumpet players do not need to transpose if the instrument they hold is in the same transposition as part they read. I.e. you hold a Bb trumpet where open "C" sounds as Bb, and you read a Bb part where written C stands for Bb, you don't transpose. But holding the same instrument, of you read an F part, where written C stands for F, and now you have to transpose to compensate for that discrepancy. That is why horn players transpose the most: they used to add crooks to change the pitch of the instrument and thus have parts written in every imaginable key, but they have settled on mostly only using instruments in F or Bb, so for every other key they need to transpose.

The reason for trumpets (and other instruments) to have transposed music is so that the fingerings are the same for any given written note no matter which instrument of the family you play. This convention dates back to when trumpets had no valves and only played the notes of the harmonic series. They would use crooks to change the pitch of the instrument, but whatever the pitch, the page would always only show the harmonics of C. So in a way, a written E just meant "play the 5th harmonic" no matter what crooks you had in. This was also applied to timpani (which were originally played by trumpeters) when they were only using a pair and systematically tuning them a fourth apart. Horns (at first natural, then hand-stopped, also using crooks) followed suit, and later clarinets and others.

Why did trombones, which already came in different sizes, not have that tradition? Possibly because the addition of the slide predates that convention, also because composers weren't writing instrument-specific parts until the 17th century, so trombones were just reading off of vocal parts, or instrumental parts that needed to also be legible for string instruments and bassoons, and even if composers wrote specific parts, there was no standardisation of the nominal pitch of trombones used at the time. The tenor was in A, crookable down to G, basses could be in anything from A to low C depending on what was available, the demands of the music a d the discretion of the player.

[spencercarran]

Just say no to valve trombones and you will be fine.

Valves: not even once

[andym]

Thank you, Maximilian. I appreciate the historical perspective.

It is a complex subject. Penny whistles would seem to be an ideal instrument for transposed parts but they proudly don’t do that. Perhaps it is also because they used vocal music.

[Basbasun]

My trombones are "pitched" in Bb (or F Eb G) so when the music is written in concert C, I see a written Bb I play a Bb. If I play a tenor trombone part in a brassband, I see a written Bb, I think Ab, and play Ab. If I play a French horn part i F and see a written G I think C and play C. When am I transposing? I transpos when playing G klef in Bb or French horn parts I F. When playing trombone part in C I just play whats written.

[s11141827]

I think the Treble Clef makes it easy for Trumpetists to double on Valve Trombone because it's the same range as a Trumpet but an Octave down

[Dennis]

As far as I now, it's a regional thing. I mostly see C valve 'bones in groups that play banda and similar styles.

That said, playing a C valve trombone means giving up the F and E natural at the bottom of the tenor trombone range - and that low F gets used a fair amount.

Exactly. It allows trumpet players to switch to trombone and read bass clef as if it were treble clef (meaning, if you see a written C on the second space, it's played open, fourth line F is played with the first valve, and so forth). All the converted trombonist needs to learn to do is to read bass clef, and their Bb trumpet fingerings come along for the ride.

Stupid idea, really, but it works. They can also read treble clef vocal parts.

[Dennis]

There's transposing treble music out there for trombone, but that's the same transposition as trumpet (down an octave of course) and pretty rare.

You need to join a (British) brass band, Aiden. The tenor trombones play Bb transposed parts (sounding a major ninth lower) once a day, every day, all day long. There are also some Bb-transposed bass clef parts (sounding a major second lower) around. Those are really rare, and horribly confusing to play. Where do they teach trombonists transposing Bb bass clef?

I was switched over to bass for the contesting season and I've had some survivor's guilt when one of our tenor players struggles with the transposed part.

[Burgerbob]

There's transposing treble music out there for trombone, but that's the same transposition as trumpet (down an octave of course) and pretty rare.

You need to join a (British) brass band, Aiden. The tenor trombones play Bb transposed parts (sounding a major ninth lower) once a day, every day, all day long. There are also some Bb-transposed bass clef parts (sounding a major second lower) around. Those are really rare, and horribly confusing to play. Where do they teach trombonists transposing Bb bass clef?

I was switched over to bass for the contesting season and I've had some survivor's guilt when one of our tenor players struggles with the transposed part.

That's the rare condition I refer to!

[Trombonjon]

If ergonomics is a problem, you can always get an alto valve trombone, which is lighter, but you'll have to learn another set of fingerings.

[RJMason]

I used to do Peruvian marching band gigs around the tri-state area when I first got my start on Sousaphone. Bb Bass Clef parts. The tempos were usually slow enough to get the fingerings going, but a lot of sixteenth note runs. Was disorienting at first but became fun.

Anyway, valve trombone is amazing. Personally, I don’t get why people spend way more time in the practice room on alto trombone than valve trombone. And why trombone manufacturers haven’t invested more time and resources into improving and marketing the valve trombone, like they do on their altos?

Obviously the instruments are different and alto trombone is gorgeous. But developing valve technique and transposition chops in various circumstances has been way more valuable to my career than my college days shedding Schumann on a Weril. Maybe this take is for another thread lol

[harrisonreed]

The valve trombone got the shaft way back when. They were using it in orchestras in, Italy maybe?, and the quality of trombonist was really bad. The regions with good trombonists used slides. I think they blamed the equipment (which probably was actually awful) and that was the end of the valve trombone.

And why trombone manufacturers haven’t invested more time and resources into improving and marketing the valve trombone, like they do on their altos?

I'm not convinced that many companies are making truly great altos. There are so many tenors, all bore sizes, that will just WOW you right off the bat. In alto world? Maybe the Shires alto and the Rath. And even those, it's like WOW this sounds and responds amazing(ly) but I already have things I want to change. My 36H is comfortable and I love the sound, but it needed reconfiguration at the shop, and it's picky about mouthpieces.

Who is making good valve bones these days? We had a 3B with a valve section and slide, and the valve section made it play TINY. The compression seemed way off. Granted, I've got no business playing valve bone, but I didn't think it'd be that rough.

[HowardW]

The valve trombone got the shaft way back when. They were using it in orchestras in, Italy maybe?, and the quality of trombonist was really bad. The regions with good trombonists used slides. I think they blamed the equipment (which probably was actually awful) and that was the end of the valve trombone.

Valve trombones were quite popular in the 19th century. Not everywhere, but especially in Italy (until well into the 20th century), Austria, and Bohemia and Moravia (i.e., Czechoslovakia). In the Vienna court opera (and later in the Vienna Philharmonic), valve trombones were used from the mid-1830s to 1883. In the Vienna court chapel even until the early 20th century. This means that the first two Brahms symphonies were premiered in Vienna using valve trombones. Some passages in Dvořák (for example, 8th Symphony and Requiem) and Janáček (Sinfonietta) were obviously written with valve trombones in mind.

Obviously, it had nothing to do with the quality of the trombonists or the equipment. Valves were applied to brass instruments starting in 1814 in Berlin and in ca. 1830 in Vienna. While the sound probably "suffered" (at least to our ears), valved instruments opened up new possibilities to the players and composers -- there are a number of passages in Verdi, for example, that I sure would not want to have to play on slide trombone.

Howard

[comebackplayer]

I've got a flugabone and really like it. It's not super heavy. The ergonomic issue is real on trombone. For both me and my daughter, just getting good grips made a huge difference. The valved doubling instruments can be rough. Another option is bass trumpet (uses trombone-style mouthpiece). Still, I'd look for the lightest tenor possible and get a good grip and you'd probably be in better shape.

[s11141827]

Did you know that Juan Tizol played Valve Trombone? Yamaha makes lighter weight versions.