What's a good smear tune that isn't Lassus?

[harrisonreed]

Yes, but you don't "program" the muppet song. It's like, transition music. Maybe you'd play it between acts in a show.

It's catchy but...

[BGuttman]

I just say we should understand the situation under which the music was written. Why aren't you folks going after Darktown Strutters Ball? Darktown was an uncomplimentary way of describing the African-American ghetto. Also comes from the same period of time.

Bruce, for the 1000th time, "whataboutism." Stoppit. Please. just stop.

No. You are busy singling out a small set of pieces from an enormous oeuvre and claiming that because there are some racist subtitles (and we agree on that) is reason enough to commit them to the dustbin. What about other music with racist titles? The first time we went at this Robcat came up with a bunch of others. Or do you not care about anything else and you just have it in for Fillmore's one work? And if so, why just that?

Incidentally, going back to the original question, Sensation Rag uses trombone glisses in some versions.

[Burgerbob]

Bruce, for the 1000th time, "whataboutism." Stoppit. Please. just stop.

No. You are busy singling out a small set of pieces from an enormous oeuvre and claiming that because there are some racist subtitles (and we agree on that) is reason enough to commit them to the dustbin. What about other music with racist titles? The first time we went at this Robcat came up with a bunch of others. Or do you not care about anything else and you just have it in for Fillmore's one work? And if so, why just that?

I'm all for not playing those either. But this (and the previous) thread are about Lassus Trombone.

Again, in what world are these played all the time? I've only seen the music for even one of these 1 time in my life. Maybe play in different circles if this comes up this often for you.

[BGuttman]

Fortunately, they aren't played all the time. I don't even play most of the Trombone Rags in public (I did play Shoutin' Liza after comparing to Handel's Messiah). I just want to point out that what we consider cringeworthy now was not considered cringeworthy 100 years ago. In fact, I was in local bands playing Lassus 30 years ago. They didn't think the music cringeworthy (but they also did not see the racist subtitles). Maybe we were less Woke back then.

[brassmedic]

Brad, I think you are confusing the fact that I said racism was common in the early part of the 20th Century with my endorsing racism. I do not endorse racism. Or anti Irish, Italian, Chinese, Polish, Chicano, or other types of prejudice.

I never said that.

[Burgerbob]

Maybe we were less Woke back then.

Sure sounds like it.

[spencercarran]

I just say we should understand the situation under which the music was written.

Considering the situation the music was written is is precisely the reason I don‘t play it, namely that it was targeted to make fun of a group of people based on racist stereotypes.

Yeah, the line of reasoning Bruce is pursuing makes no sense to me. The entire reason anyone objects to Lassus is because of its historical context. "Oh, it was a different time" Yes, and now in modern times we agree that minstrelsy is inappropriate and we discourage it.

[harrisonreed]

30 years ago? This tune has come up in community bands I've played in up until around 2010. I guarantee you nobody knew the background of the piece in the bands. And I guarantee they wouldn't play now it if they did.

This isn't about singling out one tune, or necessarily making people feel bad about playing it in the past, especially if they didn't know what it was about. It's about looking into the repertoire, especially now that information is ubiquitous, and making the right choice.

I don't think I could get retroactively mad at people (including myself) for playing Lassus Trombone in, say, 2005, if they literally had no idea about the piece other than it was put on their stand. But we can spread the word, and do our research from now on.

[brassmedic]

I just say we should understand the situation under which the music was written.

You mean the "situation" that Fillmore was being racist? And no, "other people did it too" is not a valid argument.

[BGuttman]

Sorry, I just don't buy your (and Doug Yeo's) premise. Fillmore had an idea to write a "funny N**** piece". Only one piece. We don't find any other racist music in his oeuvre. I can accept banishing the subtitles and maybe renaming the pieces. Maybe if we had something of comparable difficulty but more PC this one can dissolve into the dustbin of the unplayed. That has happened to a lot of other music.

Let's not "woke" ourselves into book burning.

[Mr412]

Is there an app for this? Before I say or do anything in public, I want to be able to look it up to see if it's okay.

[timothy42b]

This isn't about singling out one tune, or necessarily making people feel bad about playing it in the past, especially if they didn't know what it was about. It's about looking into the repertoire, especially now that information is ubiquitous, and making the right choice.

In theory I think you're right.

But in practice it seems (to me anyway) to have resulted in singling out one tune, thinking we've done our part for justice, and moving on. And that particular tune, while having an odious subtitle, is probably the least consequential example of racial insensitivity you could find. It is (or was, we've all shelved it) played only by community bands to community band audiences, both of which are a very small niche in most locations, and both groups largely ignorant of the tune's history or title.

look here for example:
https://www.ala.org/news/press-releases ... -book-bans

Banning books that mention Rosa Parks - really? Racism (and sexism, genderism, any attempt to diminish the worth of a group of people) are reaching a peak again in the US.

[ithinknot]

Is there an app for this? Before I say or do anything in public, I want to be able to look it up to see if it's okay.

I know you think this is a clever remark, but all anyone is suggesting is that having already been told an activity or statement is potentially a massive bummer for your audience, you might consider not repeating it. It's not a question of prosecuting past actions or thoughts; it's a suggestion for your conscience in future.

Fillmore had an idea to write a "funny N**** piece".

Yes, and that's a Bad Thing, the badness of which is freestanding and not relative to other works by Fillmore, which is why we're not discussing those.

Maybe if we had something of comparable difficulty but more PC this one can dissolve into the dustbin of the unplayed. That has happened to a lot of other music.

Yes, and this is precisely and entirely what DY and others have suggested, which surely you know at this point.

Let's not "woke" ourselves into book burning.

and

Banning books that mention Rosa Parks - really?

Specious reasoning, as has already been pointed out - we're suggesting that the library is the perfect place for these scores to remain.


I'm not going to participate in the infinite spiral of this discussion any further. I would simply recommend that people revisit both of the Yeo articles, and think carefully about what is (and - perhaps more importantly - what is not) being suggested. Not the slippery slopes of heated imagination, just what's actually being said.


Also, and I don't want to sound too rude in the way I put this, but it does seem to be an obvious room elephant:

Bruce, your apparent desire to (charitably) prolong (or uncharitably, s***-stir) these discussions would seem to create tension with your role as a Moderator. Of course you're free to participate as you see fit, but the wider perception of "above the fray" status might require not being consistently "below the fray" whenever certain political themes arise. I do appreciate the work you put into this place otherwise.

[BaronVonBone]

... all anyone is suggesting is that having already been told an activity or statement is a massive bummer for your audience, you might consider not repeating it. It's not a question of prosecuting past actions or thoughts; it's a suggestion for your conscience in future.

It would sure be nice if about half of humanity (it seems) didn't immediately button down the hatches, seal off the walls and launch into RED ALERT - IT'S NOT MY FAULT/DON'T BLAME ME! mode (or the judgmental reverse) whenever a subject like this is broached?

Everything's not about fault or blame. And if we seize up and revert to a mental version of the fetal position any time the notion of learning that we can be better than we are about something, there's no better way to establish a posture of slowly dying and maintain that posture until it actually happens.

And it shouldn't be about judging anyone for having century old views who lived a century ago. It's impressive for anyone to overcome the overwhelming norms of their native culture. It shouldn't be expected that anyone would without some pretty significant exposure to clearly contradictory evidence.

And it's not like we can't make (or at least advocate) cultural social improvements without vilifying anyone who hasn't yet gotten there with us, since after all we figured it out and made the move yesterday.

[Mr412]

This ^^^^^^^ Wholeheartedly.

Now give me the friggin' app. LOL!

[Burgerbob]

This ^^^^^^^ Wholeheartedly.

Now give me the friggin' app. LOL!

Be a decent person. Done!

[sacfxdx]

Time to lock this thread I think.

[mbarbier]

Also, and I don't want to sound too rude in the way I put this, but it does seem to be an obvious room elephant:

Bruce, your apparent desire to (charitably) prolong (or uncharitably, s***-stir) these discussions would seem to create tension with your role as a Moderator. Of course you're free to participate as you see fit, but the wider perception of "above the fray" status might require not being consistently "below the fray" whenever certain political themes arise. I do appreciate the work you put into this place otherwise.

^^^^this one right here^^^^^

similar to the past threads about LGBTQ trombonists the person bringing trans- and homophobic things into that discussion (whether being willfully or unintentionally so doesn't really matter) is one of the people who is supposed to be moderating it, much like he's one of the people meant to moderate this one. i'm not going to engage in debate with/around Bruce cause that was totally fruitless last time, but as a transperson I really hope you consider your involvement in these discussions because your role as a moderator has a larger effect than just your role in the debate.

fully agree with locking the thread- it's long past productive, but i do encourage anyone who hasn't to read Doug's articles. they're great and have been a really great start to dicussions with my CalArts students about the art/artist debate with more recent composers such as Webern, Morton Feldman, and Murray Schafer.

[mahlertwo]

Personally, I think it might be time to lock all of these and ban new Lassus threads. The info is all out there now, there's no point in continuing this "dialogue".

[brassmedic]

Also, and I don't want to sound too rude in the way I put this, but it does seem to be an obvious room elephant:

Bruce, your apparent desire to (charitably) prolong (or uncharitably, s***-stir) these discussions would seem to create tension with your role as a Moderator. Of course you're free to participate as you see fit, but the wider perception of "above the fray" status might require not being consistently "below the fray" whenever certain political themes arise. I do appreciate the work you put into this place otherwise.

Thank you for saying this.

[BaronVonBone]

Personally, I think it might be time to lock all of these and ban new Lassus threads. The info is all out there now, there's no point in continuing this "dialogue".

Topics aren't difficult to ignore, are they, particularly if you find them a waste of time?

Would you really find it more equitable, or palatable, to ban a topic for others rather than simply ignoring it?

[Burgerbob]

Personally, I think it might be time to lock all of these and ban new Lassus threads. The info is all out there now, there's no point in continuing this "dialogue".

Topics aren't difficult to ignore, are they, particularly if you find them a waste of time?

Would you really find it more equitable, or palatable, to ban a topic for everyone rather than simply ignoring it?

Ugh.

[blast]

Sorry guys, I didn't read this thread until asked to as I cannot stand the trombone being turned into some kind of bad joke and I'm simply not interested in the subject. It seems to go hand in hand here with the 'debate' that has yet again ensued. Let's end this as it brings no credit to the forum.
Someone else can pull the plug.

[harrisonreed]

Only one piece. We don't find any other racist music in his oeuvre.

Fact Check -- He wrote at least 15, from what I'm counting. And not all at one time, it was over at least a decade.

Also, yeah it seems like it is me and 30 people vs 1 at this point. I'll bow out as Blast suggests.

[Doug Elliott]

Locked