NHD: Bach LT50K3LG

[Burgerbob]

Yup, all those letters mean something. Light nickel slide, indy K valves, gold bell in 10.5".

The biggest surprise? It's pretty darn good.

Did it come that way? No. The general consensus on K valves is that they just kind of, well, suck. You know why? These valves were so out of alignment that the ports were halfway occluded when the valves were activated. And that's with brand new bumpers! I can only see this with my boroscope, as there are no witness marks on these valves. From what I hear, this was very, very common with horns from the factory.

Thankfully, I have smart friends (thanks Benn) that told me the stop plate is adjustable, so I spent a good half hour getting them anywhere close to lining up with the ports. Guess what? Immediate 100% improvement. As with my previous experience, K valves are not the most open or easy things to play. Instead, they are Balanced- just like the real name of "Balanced Valve" implies. The sound doesn't change noticeably with the valve engaged, unlike the previous only choice on Bachs... little teeny rotors!

The gold L bell is also, strangely, good. Big, vocal sound, not impossible to start notes... The bar is low with these outside choice bells but I have not been disappointed with this one or the last yellow L bell I had.

Personally I don't find the LT slide to be a good match for this kind of bell section, I've been using my Shires dual bore instead... more play time will come this week.

[Digidog]

Nice acquisition!

It will be interesting to hear how you familiarize yourself with the valves, and what your verdict lands on.

I have never had a chance to try K valves, but there must be a reasoning and an idea behind the construction, and maybe they are a great concept poorly executed?

I'll check in on the development.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Aiden, thanks for sharing this. I always thought that the K valve’s bad reputation was unwarranted. So many of them had horrible port alignment, usually off by at least 25-30%. When aligned properly, I thought the K-valve was a decent option. They just needed to be set up accurately.

The one thing that I did notice was (on the Bach 42 models) that the mid-range F centered a little differently when the ports were lined up correctly. I never played a double K-valve horn to see if a similar thing existed.

[elmsandr]

Nice acquisition!

It will be interesting to hear how you familiarize yourself with the valves, and what your verdict lands on.

I have never had a chance to try K valves, but there must be a reasoning and an idea behind the construction, and maybe they are a great concept poorly executed?

I'll check in on the development.

I wouldn’t even say poorly executed… maybe poorly setup generally, but the idea is fairly sound. They made trade offs to get an open three path valve. I think they chose some incorrectly, but there is no free lunch. They chose more rotational mass where Trubore and Hagmann chose to have two sealing surfaces. Is it right or wrong? Dunno. I’d buy a set if anybody is selling….

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

The size and mass are definitely a pretty big downside in the design... there's a reason Hagmanns are built so lightly, may have even been a lesson learned from the K.

Thayers set up with any kind of sealing are a bit easier to play, which is why it's hard to find a real reason for these to exist for most players, I think.

I actually had Brad Close find a stronger spring for me for the 2nd valve, since that little dinky 2-coil spring was trying to move that big heavy valve and mostly failing.

[spencercarran]

I always thought that the K valve’s bad reputation was unwarranted. So many of them had horrible port alignment, usually off by at least 25-30%. When aligned properly, I thought the K-valve was a decent option. They just needed to be set up accurately.

If the only company to use them made a consistent habit off setting them up incorrectly, the bad reputation isn't super surprising.

Though as Aidan notes, there are genuine drawbacks in the design itself, even if they are set up properly. The patent is expired and no other maker is rushing to implement their own K valve. I doubt they would be super popular even if assembled to higher build quality than Bach historically did.

[tbonesullivan]

Though as Aidan notes, there are genuine drawbacks in the design itself, even if they are set up properly. The patent is expired and no other maker is rushing to implement their own K valve. I doubt they would be super popular even if assembled to higher build quality than Bach historically did.

I don't see the K valve making any type of comeback, when there are already so many good aftermarket valves available already. There was also the somewhat similar "Miller Valve", which had a different port configuration on the inside, but used the same large cylinder exterior.

Now, I do know people who have played K-valve Bachs, and all of them LOVED Them, so they definitely have fans, but not enough to really justify bringing back the design, especially when Bach themselves abandoned them.

[Digidog]

But what was the intention, the sought after trait that the K-valve was supposed to solve? I mean: Hagmann's try to be as open as possible, Lindbergs try to solve the throw issue, and axials try to provide a good solution to the wrap - and all want to be as playable and handleable as possible.

I can't really see what the K-valve tries to solve - if anything.

[Burgerbob]

But what was the intention, the sought after trait that the K-valve was supposed to solve? I mean: Hagmann's try to be as open as possible, Lindbergs try to solve the throw issue, and axials try to provide a good solution to the wrap - and all want to be as playable and handleable as possible.

I can't really see what the K-valve tries to solve - if anything.

They're easier to play, great valve legato, a BIT more free blowing, and most importantly MUCH more even sound-wise than the previous Bach rotors. Instead of the sound being pretty radically different between the Bb and F sides (which isn't always a bad thing... but generally is, IMO), they're pretty much the same with the valves. Even more so than aluminum Thayers or some valves offered today.

[BGuttman]

...
I can't really see what the K-valve tries to solve - if anything.

The K valve was Bach's attempt to make an in-house (and not covered by a patent) equivalent to the Thayer Valve. It predates a lot of the other valves. Whether it worked or not is a matter of personal taste. I never liked it because of ergonomics (it jabbed me in the neck).

[BestUserNameOnTromboneChat]

Ok, but whoever bent the valve wraps had some serious chops! Nothing else like that anywhere else!

[Burgerbob]

Ok, but whoever bent the valve wraps had some serious chops! Nothing else like that anywhere else!

Right? They're really quite pretty wraps.

[Digidog]

...
I can't really see what the K-valve tries to solve - if anything.

The K valve was Bach's attempt to make an in-house (and not covered by a patent) equivalent to the Thayer Valve. It predates a lot of the other valves. Whether it worked or not is a matter of personal taste. I never liked it because of ergonomics (it jabbed me in the neck).

They sure look to be large (protruding) and heavy and in an awkward position on the gooseneck, but as I've never tried one I'm curious to learn more. I think I've seen a similar looking valve on an old Czech horn many years ago - like that the trombone was a single valve F-attachment horn from the early sixties and I saw it when touring in Czechoslovakia and Hungary in, like, -93, -94 or -95.

But what was the intention, the sought after trait that the K-valve was supposed to solve? I mean: Hagmann's try to be as open as possible, Lindbergs try to solve the throw issue, and axials try to provide a good solution to the wrap - and all want to be as playable and handleable as possible.

I can't really see what the K-valve tries to solve - if anything.

They're easier to play, great valve legato, a BIT more free blowing, and most importantly MUCH more even sound-wise than the previous Bach rotors. Instead of the sound being pretty radically different between the Bb and F sides (which isn't always a bad thing... but generally is, IMO), they're pretty much the same with the valves. Even more so than aluminum Thayers or some valves offered today.

If there are advantages, positive traits, why did the construction not catch on? Is it expensive to manufacture? Heavy? Maintenance intensive? Prone to malfunction? Or is it the aesthetics? A plain bad rep?

I've tried some light googling, but with not much coming up. I'm just curious here.

[Matt K]

Bach made those and had the patent on them, so nobody else could make them for awhile. In the interim, a ton of work was done by many competitors to make alternatives. So I it’s primarily a matter of timing. There are a LOT of good options out there now.

[Posaunus]

Is the Bach K Valve in any way better than the Conn CL Valve?

[Burgerbob]

Is the Bach K Valve in any way better than the Conn CL Valve?

Way slower, but I personally prefer how they play. Just about as heavy and intrusive on the neck!

[Burgerbob]

If there are advantages, positive traits, why did the construction not catch on? Is it expensive to manufacture? Heavy? Maintenance intensive? Prone to malfunction? Or is it the aesthetics? A plain bad rep?

I've tried some light googling, but with not much coming up. I'm just curious here.

Better, easier, non-patented-by-bach options out there. Hagmanns have their own problems but do many of the same things in a smaller, lighter, quicker package.

[elmsandr]

Is the Bach K Valve in any way better than the Conn CL Valve?

I have one of each, they both work on the same modular horn I have here…. They are both ‘fine’. Neither does what a Thayer does for a 42. They both play decently, I think I’d rather take the CL2000 out if I had to, but they aren’t complete failures. But both being exclusive designs limited their acceptance into the market. The Thayer concept beat them all until the more improved rotors came about…. And even then, those still do not generally do what a Thayer does. Should we actually want what a Thayer does? I won’t answer that and just say that we as a community really loved heavy bells for a long time, too.

Cheers,
Andy

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Ok, but whoever bent the valve wraps had some serious chops! Nothing else like that anywhere else!

Right? They're really quite pretty wraps.

Those bends were not done by hand. Like many other parts at the Bach factory, tubes were filled with a solution that was frozen. Once frozen, the tubes were pushed by a machine around a form. The times that I toured the factory, they would show the bending of the trumpet bell stems. Then they would hang the newly bent bell stems over a giant vat that would collect the solution as it melted.

Nonetheless, I agree that the K-valve wraps are attractive. I always thought that axial wraps would be more attractive if they were done with similar bends.

[gbedinger]

and those dorky rectangular open wraps on the Bach.

[Matt K]

and those dorky rectangular open wraps on the Bach.

Dual radius!!

[BestUserNameOnTromboneChat]

and those dorky rectangular open wraps on the Bach.

Seriously, the most unattractive wrap found anywhere is definitely the 50b3O! The square F and Gb doesn't match with the round main tuning slide, nor do they even line up with each other! 42Bo looks ok ish but even that sticks out too far behind... Although, I understand that those were designed when open wraps were a brand new concept so there was really nothing to base it on. It's like seeing a step in the evolution of wrap designs before your very eyes. I don't know if the 50b3O was released (80s?) before the K valve (90s?) but it seems they figured that rounded tuning slides were the way to go by then.

[Thrawn22]

Water filtration on that thing must be awesome.

[Burgerbob]

and those dorky rectangular open wraps on the Bach.

Seriously, the most unattractive wrap found anywhere is definitely the 50b3O!

More cost saving by Bach- those are the inside 90 degree bend on the closed wrap 42B and 50B, repurposed as tuning slide crooks.

[gbedinger]

More cost saving by Bach- those are the inside 90 degree bend on the closed wrap 42B and 50B, repurposed as tuning slide crooks.

Fascinating, and it explains a lot. Oddly enough, that squareish look on the closed wrap doesn’t bother me at all.

I agree with a quote attributed to Steve Ferguson (on hornguys.com) which is, paraphrasing: allow the visual aesthetics please you, as it will encourage great sounds as well.

To that I agree with. Taking that concept one step further, going further, I’m not sure I’d consider an LT50K3LG no matter how good someone told me it played.

[Burgerbob]

Oops... 180 degree bend, of course.

I personally don't mind the K wraps... the valves themselves leave something to be desired, of course. Still better than a Trubore setup in terms of looks IMO.

[Kevbach33]

I've said it before, but I liked the one 50K3 (9.5" yellow bell, standard slide) I had the opportunity to try. It wouldn't supplant my Getzen Eterna — not by a long shot — but it would complement it as an orchestral bass if I was doing that kind of work (but I'm not). Not so sure I'd care for a light slide and 10.5" bell (either yellow or gold) combo, though.

That square dual radius look on open wrap Bach bones is cheap to me as well. I think the 50B3 with the traditional wrap looks much better but not as good as this.

And, again, when will Conn Selmer decide it's time to put those open flow valves on the 50?

[Finetales]

As weird as the 50B3O wraps are, in my opinion the Kanstul 1585 (which is basically the same wrap but with nice and round tuning slides) looks even weirder.

On the other hand, the 42BO has to be the most hideous wrap on the planet. Yuck.

[octavposaune]

Hi all, I own an LT50K3 that Aidan reviewed years ago. Guess who got excited for him when got this horn!

We had a discussion where I told him how 100% of all K valved Bachs that I have repaired in the last 20 years have had severe valve misalignments, and this has caused 90% Of their playing problems.

On the 50K3 there are 2 parts that are hand bent. The 2 bizarrely shaped compound bends on the F and Gb valves that are on the hand slide facing ends. All the other part are balled out parts. It is possible that the 50AF might in fact use the die from the F tuning slide of the 50K3. One of the reasons there is a smaller radius tuning slide on the Gb is that they didn't make a compound bent part to offset the neckpipe side of the Gb tuning slide leg. They used off the shelf 50B2 bends, much like the ONE offset on the 42BO at the 180° valve. If you look at a 42BO that offset is not a true offset. It angles outwards as it is the same 1960s part used on the dependant 50B2 Flat E wrap. Bach reused tooling and part between models like mad. And a few parts from older models ended up on K horns (tenors and basses).

Why do I play a 50K3? Well at the moment I don't have it in regular use as I am using my Haag bass. However 3 people told me that the one I bought had a superb bell so I acquired it. 50K3s have some playing oddities. My horns Gb valve intonation and note slotting is very out there. C in staff os VERY far out from the low F position, but low E is further out that B in staff. So C in Gb 2nd and B in Gb 3 position are very close together. But H2 are more linear and match Bachs with other valve clusters.

About timbre...Aidan said my opinion. With these valves it is very easy to match timbres across either valve. This includes alternate positions, double valve to pedal registers etc...however on my horn in particular the double valve notes have a very loose slot and can bend pitch a bit too easily. Its a trade off, as it is a bit of work to play well in tune but Low Cs and Bs can sound amazing.

I think the utter lack of neckpipe is part of this issue, there is a huge bore gap on the 50K3 from the Gb valve to lower tuning slide tube, which couldn't be good for the acoustics. Someday down the line I would like to fit a taper neckpipe to my instrument and see what happens. The 36/42K had a proper open neckpipe that acoustically worked far better than 50Ks in general.

I am hoping Aidan keeps this long enough for me to try when I go down to Socal in late April. It will be fun to compare.

I was also told by Tedd Waggoner years ago that 50Ks were in fact developed to compete with Thayers as Ed Thayer couldn't deliver for them at the time. K valves were likely too expensive to build and were not well received likely due to the afforementioned issues. When setup correctly IMO they are better than Bach rotors, are they are good as a Hagmann or Thayer? Probably not, as I also have an axial 50 and playing wise it blows it away, but not timbre wise...

Back to taxes,

Benn

[TheBoneRanger]

I think the utter lack of neckpipe is part of this issue

Goodness, I'd never noticed this before!!

The balanced valve seems like such an anomaly for Bach. For a company that reused parts for many makes and models rather than creating a new part, the appearance of a new valve, made in-house, is certainly a big exception!

I wonder who did the bulk of the design work on the valve, and how they managed to convince a notoriously stingy company to take a chance and tool up for a whole new valve?

Andrew

[elmsandr]

Huh… lotta hate for the square wrap parts… why? “But how does it play, man?”

I’ve often considered making some trials with square bends on the valve tubing for other valve types. Would it not be a more consistent design approach with the rest of the Bach sound? Rarely have I seen people fix the valves but leave the square wraps…. Except in a few closed wrap conversions that stay as a closed wrap. Those have all played like a million bucks. Maybe the square bend isn’t a problem.

(But yeah, the 36/42BO wraps are so dumb.)

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

Rarely have I seen people fix the valves but leave the square wraps…



Cheers,
Andy

Read 'em and weep!

[Matt K]

Not to throw too many logs on the fire but I also wonder if people wouldn’t benefit from having several options available. I was only half joking about the dual radius thing earlier. But there’s also the material and construction like main tuning slides. Like having a commercial set that’s dual radius and seamed material (possibly nickel?) vs a classical setup that’s single radius and drawn in yellow/gold/red brass. Instead of just having a single tuning slide.

[elmsandr]

Rarely have I seen people fix the valves but leave the square wraps…



Cheers,
Andy

Read 'em and weep!

Lol, of course.

Shires rotors? How does this feel in the double range compared to the regular Shires wrap? I have a preconceived notion, but I’m trying to not bias responses.

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

Lol, of course.

Shires rotors? How does this feel in the double range compared to the regular Shires wrap? I have a preconceived notion, but I’m trying to not bias responses.

Cheers,
Andy

It's hard to really compare... they are the same valves but everything else is different. This horn is AMAZING in the middle range, some of the snappiest response and great sound in the staff (and above, really, but that doesn't have anything to do with the valves). Down below it doesn't play as easily. The valves themselves could probably use a swedge... there's literally NO bracing on the wraps... the receiver is, to put it nicely, non-standard... right now it's a Q series tuning slide... I think this section will get some TLC soon and we'll see how it is afterwards. All of that aside, it's still a good horn and I used it the last couple days on a show.

[elmsandr]

Side note, pretty sure “New Horn Day” for you should be more of a chalkboard with the daily special ala your chatname namesake.

This does make me wonder if I have enough bits to make dual radius slides for any of my valve sections… probably not without chopping…

Cheers,
Andy

[BestUserNameOnTromboneChat]

I will admit I had never really heard about dual radius before now... As if there aren't enough rabbit holes of trombone customization to go down!

[Burgerbob]

Side note, pretty sure “New Horn Day” for you should be more of a chalkboard with the daily special ala your chatname namesake.

This does make me wonder if I have enough bits to make dual radius slides for any of my valve sections… probably not without chopping…

Cheers,
Andy

I do have an extra 50B wrap part sitting around if you need a crook.

[Matt K]

You could cut the smaller C shaped bend in two and use a ferrule to connect the two parts to a straight tube.

[hornbuilder]

Looks like the K valve is available again from a company in China!! This ad was just put up on Trombone Marketplace on FB...

[Kbiggs]

Rarely have I seen people fix the valves but leave the square wraps…



Cheers,
Andy

Read 'em and weep!

This horn looks like my 50B. I like the square (DUAL RADIUS!) crooks. It’s an OG thing.

[Burgerbob]

Looks like the K valve is available again from a company in China!! This ad was just put up on Trombone Marketplace on FB...

These have been around for a while... I feel bad, a friend showed me one he found on Craigslist or something for very cheap. I told him to buy it because I thought there was no way there were fake 42Ks out there! I think it turned out to be pretty good, but not a real Bach.

[Matt K]

Looks like the K valve is available again from a company in China!! This ad was just put up on Trombone Marketplace on FB...

I saw that ad on eBay and I believe they said something to the effect of "doesn't play very well."

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I have had kids show up in band with brand new Chinese copies of the Bach 42K. They have been around for years.

Believe me, the valve is not the primary concern on those particular instruments. Some of the slides arrived with so much calcium build-up in them that they were starting to form stalactites and stalagmites.

[ithinknot]

Some of the slides arrived with so much calcium build-up in them that they were starting to form stalactites and stalagmites.

I can never remember which one grows from the inner slide, and which from the outer

[Posaunus]

Some of the slides arrived with so much calcium build-up in them that they were starting to form stalactites and stalagmites.

I can never remember which one grows from the inner slide, and which from the outer.

Depends on whether you're in the northern or southern hemisphere.

Or is that Coriolus?

[hornbuilder]

That is toilet flushing direction. Clockwise in one hemisphere, counter-clockwise in the other..

[Posaunus]

Matthew,

My comment was intended to be a joke, as was (I think) ithinknot's.

Humor is sometimes lost on the Interweb!

I actually used to teach my engineering students about the Coriolus effect.
I am less knowledgeable about stalactites and stalagmites, but I remember my cave-loving cousin teaching me that StalaCtites come down from the Ceiling, and StalaGmites grow up from the Ground!

[hornbuilder]

Oh, I got the humor! I was also trying to inject some myself. And yes, it is true, that toilets flush the opposite way Down under!!

[Posaunus]

Oh, I got the humor! I was also trying to inject some myself. And yes, it is true, that toilets flush the opposite way Down under!!

Well, this is worth a lengthy discussion. Over a few beers.

My favorite used to be Coopers - was it the Original Pale Ale (with the cloudy sediment)?
Must admit that I haven't tasted it in years!

Cheers!