Doodle Tonguing

[ttf_anonymous]

Hey guys, I know it's been mentioned on here before, but I couldn't really find a thread directly addressing it.

I'm a jazzer and doodle tonguing is really how you keep up with the note machines (saxes), trumpets, and pianos at fast tempos without sounding like a wrench in the blades of a lawnmower as you would with a typical double tongue. I understand the double tongue is useful, but you can't get the same fluidity with a double tongue as you can with a doodle tongue when you're playing extended 16th note lines.

Almost obviously, the only way to get better at something is to do it slow and right, and as we say in the army, "slow is smooth, smooth is fast," then you incrementally increase speed, but I have trouble speeding up my doodle tongue past 16th notes at ~130bpm. Namely, keeping up with Carl on his 1971 Emily solo is hard  https://youtu.be/O5iA28Ayibs?t=97

Does anybody know any good lip exercises on or off the mouthpiece/horn that will not only eventually speed up, but also hone in the technique of my doodle tongue?

To get an idea of where I want to eventually be, have a listen to Clifford Brown and Max Roach's beautiful arrangement of Parisian Thoroughfare https://youtu.be/vJ7tDo-TOOw

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

I think doodle tonguing WELL is dependent on a certain mouth structure, which I don't have.  Lots of players can doodle tongue, and lots of players can't.  I rely on a smooth double and triple tongue to approximate a doodle, and it does work up to a point.

My suggestion is to continue working on doodle, but don't neglect double and triple.  You can also combine them in interesting ways which may yield greater speed.

[ttf_bonenick]

If  I'm not mistaken, Clifford in this track, as in many others uses a combination of doodle and ghost tonguing. Both are hard to do, when you have played all your adult life with ta, da and ta-ka/da-ga articulations (speaking mostly of myself ) Hope that helps....

[ttf_baileyman]

Fontana suggested scales to start with something like 9 sixteenths on a note, 9 one the next, etc., in time.  He also said do them pretty fast as slow doesn't really help.  And he said aim for definition so they pop.  And he said you can play them loud, it just takes more air. 

My own observation is the guy had a really fast single and an absurdly fast doodle, both with spectacular clarity.  Also, things change a lot doing it further back or further up, or making it like a valve or like a bump in the airstream, or hard against the molars or loose, etc. 

He also spent hours and hours practicing including piece alone. 

[ttf_Pre59]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Apr 07, 2017, 08:24PMI think doodle tonguing WELL is dependent on a certain mouth structure, which I don't have.  Lots of players can doodle tongue, and lots of players can't.  I rely on a smooth double and triple tongue to approximate a doodle, and it does work up to a point.


I've not had much success with Doodle Tonguing either apart from adding small articulations and details. It's forced me into a more fretting style which suits me as I don't find myself in a super fast situation very often, and it makes me think more in terms of ideas and expanding them, rather than a stream of notes.

[ttf_Pre59]

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Apr 07, 2017, 08:24PMI think doodle tonguing WELL is dependent on a certain mouth structure, which I don't have.  Lots of players can doodle tongue, and lots of players can't.  I rely on a smooth double and triple tongue to approximate a doodle, and it does work up to a point.


I've not had much success with Doodle Tonguing either apart from adding small articulations and details. It's forced me into a more fretting style which suits me as I don't find myself in a super fast situation very often, and it makes me think more in terms of ideas and expanding them, rather than a stream of notes.