flutter tongue on pedal E

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:22 am

In June im going to play in a brass ensemble. Its a requiem with choir. Got the music today and it was lot of things to practice for me. Among the funny things there was some places with flutter tongue on low E. I tried but no chance for me to make it. There is also places with multiphonics. I have no idea how to do it. Sing while you play?

I can take a picture of it later.

Leif

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:42 am

Wow, I've never seen fluttering on a pedal. I'll try it tonight before the show.

Now, I do like to flutter low E and Eb...if you get the flutter speed right, you can get the pedal to pop out very, VERY loud. Pretty weird. And fun.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:10 am

This week in rehearsal the tuba flutter tongued a note to mimic a tympani roll.

It was very funny. The director had him just play it straight.

Multiphonics aren't too bad, you'll get them.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:57 am

Here is a picture of it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vkang0wjarr7j5y/WP_20170406_18_07_32_Pro.jpg?dl=0

<Edit: Fixed image>

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:50 pm

Pedal e, flutter tongued, for 6 beats at quarter = 60?
Did you do something to the composer to make him mad

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:11 pm

Well, it's a good example of a composer not really understanding the limits of the horn. Weird.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:22 pm

The clue is in the words 'multiphonics no particular pitch'.... this is a composer who does not really know what they want and what instruments can do. Multiphonics should be specific... but then the composer needs to know what they are doing...

Chris Stearn

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:48 pm

What is the name and composer of the piece?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:17 pm

Multiphonics are playing and singing - there's a great method book out for it now at http://jenbakersounds.com/Multiphonics.php if you find yourself so interested. Having no indication of what to sing though is really a faux pas compositionally though. Oh well, that's why we collaborate!

Flutter on pedal tones is possible, but in my opinion (having done a ton of new music) it's not really needed. I would recommend playing the pedal straight - the frequency of the sound in that register and the speed of of the tongue during a flutter often cancel each other out, and create a broken sound, even when done well. A pedal E already sounds rumbly enough to get the point across. If the composer does want a broken up sound, well then he's gonna get it!

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:07 pm

The composer is nuts...

Are you the only bass trombone? It mentions stagger breathing which suggests multiple payers on the part. If you are playing with the tuba or more than one bass you might try to each play the E at slightly different pitches. The beat frequency, if you get it right, might simulate the requested flutter.

ttf_hassein · Post by **ttf_hassein** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:14 pm

BY the looks of the score, you could just drag a clothes dresser around the stage and get the same effect.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:59 pm

Another problem is that he's asking for an E to G (and back) glissando. That means you can't play the E with the trigger and have to play it in 7th position. That makes it much harder. Unless you can find a Bb/F/G/Eb indy and can play it on the 2nd trigger.

Or even worse, a G Bass

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:17 pm

Okay, tonight I played the flutter-tongue pedal E, on a Bach 36, no less. Just for fun. Totally worthless and really doesn't come out as anything usable. An interesting challenge, though.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:03 pm

You really got it? On a 36b? My god...
I can't get any sound at all on the low flutter. Tried to add the flutter after I started the note but the sound just stop. But isn't a pedal E already nearly sounding like a flutter?

This is definitely something else than the slow Sinatra ballad's I usually play. This music have 4 trombones. One is bass and there is a tuba. Lot of other strange things in this piece. But lot of long long pedals. Must be with the tuba so we can breath on different places.

Well, I try to practice this more today.

Leif

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:36 am

I had a go at a flutter tongue on pedal E. Its not too tricky, just like flutter tonguing any other note really.... what I found hard was sustaining the sound much longer than a few beats.... Using flutter tongue takes more air, especially down in the pedal register, so I had to breathe and come back in regularly. Probably a good breathing exercise actually!!!

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:23 am

Ha ha there you are playing nutty music!

I have done that alot. The flutter tongue is not really needed since the composer wont know if you do flutter or not. The long tones is no problem, just find out when to breath, the multiphonics, sing any tone or try find an interesting one. The gliss from contra E to G will not be a problem for you I dont think. Good tip, try to have fun!

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:12 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 07, 2017, 02:23AMHa ha there you are playing nutty music!

I have done that alot. The flutter tongue is not really needed since the composer wont know if you do flutter or not. The long tones is no problem, just find out when to breath, the multiphonics, sing any tone or try find an interesting one. The gliss from contra E to G will not be a problem for you I dont think. Good tip, try to have fun!

I wonder if the long tones are no problem, really. If the "n" before the crescendo to ff and adfter the decrescendo stands for "niente" then any break other than switching off to another player will disrupt the effect.

It's moments like these that make me appreciate synthesizers

ttf_Bob Riddle · Post by **ttf_Bob Riddle** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:14 am

I tried it .Hated it. That is one ugly*** sound!!!
Bob Riddle

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:15 am

Quote from: Bob Riddle on Apr 07, 2017, 07:14AMI tried it .Hated it. That is one ugly*** sound!!!
Bob Riddle

Ugly must be what is wanted.

I did try it on my tenor sackbut with a bore like 450, well it does work, the tip of the tongue up on the roof in the mouth. But it does sound more like an accident then anything else.

Funny how people put so many hours to practice and finding good instruments to be able to play beautiful music. And then get paid to make ugly sounds. I have done that so many times.

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:09 pm

Quote from: savio on Apr 06, 2017, 11:03PMYou really got it? On a 36b? My god...
Oh, well I didn't say I played it WELL...just played it. Plus...it's a very special 36!

Actually, I stank at it. But then, I'm not really a monster low player, just clean and efficient. Some of the folks on here have low ranges as big as houses.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:26 pm

Challenge accepted.

I might have played it. It's hard to tell. I worked down the pedals until I was sitting on the E, then tried to flutter. It kind of breaks up like a helicopter for me. Felt kind of relaxing and massaging on the lips, but the pitch is a bit indeterminate. It started to feel like a multiphonic. Hee, hee.

As I'm probably the least accomplished person on this thread, and I came pretty close on my first try, I'd say it's doable. But, not worth doing.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:32 pm

On bass behind the bell, it sounds like a large engine with a bad idle. Cool sound effect but pretty difficult, and not getting a lot of pitch out of it.

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:54 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Apr 07, 2017, 06:32PMOn bass behind the bell, it sounds like a large engine with a bad idle. Cool sound effect but pretty difficult, and not getting a lot of pitch out of it.
I don't get much pitch out of a bass trombone, period.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:20 am

I still can't make it

maybe I use the tongue too much. The sound just disappear.

Leif

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:05 am

You can do it. Sing with a rolling R with the tip of the tongue ponting up to the roof (gommen) in the mouth, lower your low jaw. Not a hard R but an R with lots of air in the sound. It is actually not that difficult. Good luck.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:21 am

I tried it to day while warming up for Big Band practice. IF you get the tongue fluttering at the right frequency, it sounds a bit like one of those old radial engined planes idling. Even with filling my lungs to capacity I could not make the tone for more than 4 seconds, and that was at mp or mf max. Man, that sucks air!!!!

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:50 pm

If the bass trombonist is supposed to play a pedal E at fff, then there is probably a lot of other [s]noise[/s] sound happening at that moment in the rest of the ensemble.

Provided this isn't for a professional recording: I don't think the audience will be able to hear any difference, I doubt the composer knows the difference between a flutter pedal E and a straight sound pedal E (see Chris' comments above), and I sincerely doubt the conductor will take you to task if you do not play with a flutter tongue--if he even hears or knows the difference. In other words, chances are, the only one who will know that you aren't playing a flutter-tongued pedal E is you.

Yes, I'm suggesting you fake it.

You might try a growl rather than a flutter tongue. In that register, the effect will be the same--a low, unstable oscillating/growling sound.

It's a musical effect, not phrase by Mozart. I don't believe you would do any violence to the composer's intentions by just playing what is possible (i.e., faking it) rather than slavishly adhering to the composer's well-meant if somewhat ignorant intentions.

(Quickly doffing my helmet and flak jacket.

)

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:10 am

The funny thing is that I find it less difficult to do flutter tongue pedal F on a 500 bore 11C than on the bass.
A loud pedal F allready sounds like a flutter tongue. Dont worry!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:32 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 10, 2017, 10:10AMThe funny thing is that I find it less difficult to do flutter tongue pedal F on a 500 bore 11C than on the bass.
A loud pedal F allready sounds like a flutter tongue. Dont worry!

I can't hit double pedals on my tenor or bass, but if I am playing my alto (Conn 36H) I can hit double pedal Eb. Go figure.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:23 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 10, 2017, 10:10AMThe funny thing is that I find it less difficult to do flutter tongue pedal F on a 500 bore 11C than on the bass.
A loud pedal F allready sounds like a flutter tongue. Dont worry!

I dont think the others will notice any difference? Or the composer? Honestly I still cant do it but I dont worry. I have to play it without flutter. I look forward to play this, lot of other fun things to practice!

Leif

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:29 pm

Quote from: savio on Apr 10, 2017, 11:23AM

I dont think the others will notice any difference? Or the composer? Honestly I still cant do it but I dont worry. I have to play it without flutter. I look forward to play this, lot of other fun things to practice!

Leif

I LOVE your positive attitude!

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:56 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 10, 2017, 10:32AMI can't hit double pedals on my tenor or bass, but if I am playing my alto (Conn 36H) I can hit double pedal Eb. Go figure.

Why do you think that is strange? It is a forth higher. But don´t worry about the double pedals, so far it is not written in your part.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:45 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 11, 2017, 01:56AMWhy do you think that is strange? It is a forth higher. But don´t worry about the double pedals, so far it is not written in your part.

Shhhh! Don't jinx it!

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:41 pm

Here is a clinic sheet on multiphonics:

http://www.alkay.ca/documents/clinic_sheets/alkay_multi-phonics_e.pdf

I have worked on them a bit, but more work is ahead.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Wed May 24, 2017 11:41 am

We had a rehearsal and I played it without flutter, the composer sat just some few meters away from the brass ensemble and told after the first try it was just what he wanted.

So I didn't say anything more...

Leif

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Wed May 24, 2017 11:51 am

Quote from: savio on May 24, 2017, 11:41AMWe had a rehearsal and I played it without flutter, the composer sat just some few meters away from the brass ensemble and told after the first try it was just what he wanted.

So I didn't say anything more...

Leif

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Wed May 24, 2017 11:58 am

+2

Also, I'm pleased to be able to say in this one instance, "I told you so!"

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Wed May 24, 2017 11:58 am

+2

Also, I'm pleased to be able to say in this one instance, "I told you so!"