Unusual horn -- Who made it?

[gtieszen]

I recently got a horn off of an online auction site I watch (not Ebay). It was titled "Olds Trombone" and on quick glance it appeared to be an Olds with the flat wrap F-section. But upon looking at the included pics, it was definitely NOT an Olds. I have had a somewhat local expert look at it, and he was stumped as to the maker. His thoughts were possibly from a foreign maker, possibly Courtois, but looking at pics of Courtois, I don't thnk so. Anway, here are some pics I took of the horn and a bit of other info.

Bore is "about" .564//.574(?) with a 9 in (8 7/8") bell. There is no numbers/etching/engraving on the bell, but there are numbers on the slide (see later pic). It takes a small shank MP, and came with a Jetone Urbie Green Model S, and a Bach 12C.


Notice the strange routing of the F-section. The only thing I could find with similar routing was a Getzen Super Deluxe on Ebay (see below). They both have the "Kingish" bent brace and the unique routing, but mine has a cord activating the valve, and the Getzen has a solid link, and mine has the nut on the slide and the Getzen has it on the bell, so I just don't think the horn is a Getzen.

Now for the slide. It's quite attractive and has a very unusual slide lock mechanism. I've spent hours trying to find something with a similar lock configuration, but the closest I've found is a Martin, but it's not quite like a Martin either.


Kind of a conical barrel over the slide with an internal locking lug. And note that this has the joining nut on the slide section, and not the bell section as mentioned above. There are numbers on this section--"97" over "191011", and slide #"191015". (They don't match, but are only 4 apart, and the "97", maybe model number?)


I'll include a few other shots of various parts, maybe someone will recognize something.




So, anyone have any ideas who made it. Or maybe its a Frankenbone, or possibly a full off, one-of-a-kind custom, or maybe just someone playing around with some spare parts? If anyone needs other, more specific pic's I'd be more than happy to provide them.
Thanks for your input.

GT

[Posaunus]

I have no idea what it is, but it's fascinating.

How does it play? Doesn't look like a U.S. model. Strange that it takes an American-style small shank mouthpiece.

[Finetales]

I don't know anything with that wrap other than Getzen. They don't all look exactly the same, some don't have the curved forward bell brace for example. Probably just a different year with small differences from the one on eBay, especially as those Getzen pancake wraps are not common in any spec. I don't remember anything from that era with a bore that large (especially not with a small shank) - where are you measuring the bore?

[JohnL]

The bell at least looks like J. W. York and Sons. They used that sort of wrap, a curved bell brace, and a string linkage.

I had one at one point; bought it for super cheap on eBay with the thought of "rescuing" it. Turned out it was beyond economical repair, so I just told John Sandhagen to keep it and use whatever parts he could. For all I know, he still has it (or at least parts of it)

[Burgerbob]

The bell at least looks like J. W. York and Sons. They used that sort of wrap, a curved bell brace, and a string linkage.

I had one at one point; bought it for super cheap on eBay with the thought of "rescuing" it. Turned out it was beyond economical repair, so I just told John Sandhagen to keep it and use whatever parts he could. For all I know, he still has it (or at least parts of it)

I've seen that wrap hanging on the wall!

[gtieszen]

OK, I stand corrected as to the bore. Re-checking things, it appears to be .564 just below the brace and just above the stockings on both slides, so it appears to be a straight bore and not duo bore -- sorry.

[gtieszen]

From the suggestion of a J. W. York, I've been looking around, and on: www.yorkloyalist.com/york-trombones, the last entry on the table is a listing for Model No: 97, Named the Master Bass, produced 1945-1963, having a .555 bore and a 8 7/8" Bell. My bore measurement could very well be off, but the bell diameter matches. If the "97" is the model, and the 191011 is the SN (listed as 1954) then it's possible that this is a JW York. I'd sure like to see a picture of a York Master 97!

[hyperbolica]

The straight spit valve looks like a Holton. The combo of bell nut on slide/recessed slide lock Look like Olds. The wrap and pinky saver is Getzen. The curved brace and bell nut on slide are also King cues, although it's clearly not a king. Corkbarrel details, crappy lacquer and curved brace of a Selmer. If only we could smell it... You can always tell a Selmer by the smell.

But some things look unfamiliar, like the ferrules. And I can almost place that case. I know I've had one with that cheap fuzzy light red interior...

[hyperbolica]

York seems to be the thing.

It looks like York Master horns may have been made by Bohm&Meinl, another primarily valve instrument maker.

https://fixturesmusicalinstruments.com/ ... ohm-meinl/

[Doug Elliott]

Yes, "York Master" tubas were made by Bohm & Meinl - I think in response to the famous Chicago Symphony's York tubas that Arnold Jacobs played - and unrelated to York Band Instruments except by the name. I think this is more likely an earlier Grand Rapids made York.

The Getzen guess was not too far off - one of the Getzens worked at York.

[gtieszen]

Digging deeper at the horn-u-copia site, I found a commented serial number list, and this is the comment for the 190999 SN (Next listed SN is 191236) mine is 191011, so this is just 12 before mine.


Interesting! I think that this also adds fuel to the argument that it is a York.

Thanks to everyone who provided suggestions. I knew this forum would provide the information I needed to ID this instrument. I now believe I will call the horn a "provisional" York Master 97 because I can't find a photo or have an identification made by someone who actually had one like it, but I'd say I've now got enough circumstantial evidence to make that claim.

If anyone has anything more to add, I'm still open to the discussion.

GT

[stewbones43]

A student of mine, some years ago, had a York Master tenor trombone which looked just like an Olds Super-Multi coloured metals, tone ring on bell, contoured braces. But it was heavy!!!!! Research found out that it was made by Bohm and Meinl. It makes one wonder if they got some design inspiration from other manufacturers.

Cheers

Stewbones43

[harrisonreed]

One of those is hanging on the wall at my in-laws'. Very tough to play

[JohnL]

One of those is hanging on the wall at my in-laws'. Very tough to play

The one I gave up on was too far gone to make a fair judgement, but my recollection of it is far from positive. Not too long after my York misadventure, an acquaintance (looking for a “bargain”) picked up a similar one against my advice. He, too, eventually reach the conclusion that it just wasn’t worth it.

“There’s no such thing as a good deal on a bad horn.”

[Windmill]

Hi

The curved brace indeed mostly looks like a Selmer to me. The tuning slide reminds me a lot of King, with an added-on guard. The flare could be Selmer too but definitely not King...

[blap73]

In the quest to understand what makes a good horn --- examining failures can be instructive... so, any thoughts why this horn is "hard to play", etc.? Does it play badly without the F-section engaged? It seems like the bends in the F-section are very tight due to the large bore tubing.

My other suspicion would be the leadpipe. Would be interesting to temporarily cobble some other slide on and see what happens.

[Doug Elliott]

The barrel and slide lock look vaguely familiar to me, possibly from a trombone I had years ago. It was from a very small maker in Elkhart in the late '30's to early '40's I think, Harry Pedler, later I think absorbed by Martin. Maybe somebody else has seen one and can confirm, or not? I can't immediately find any pictures of one online. The one I had was around .485 bore and a student level horn.

But, it seems to have been confirmed to be a York or York Master... maybe.

[calcbone]

I hadn’t heard the name Pedler anywhere else before—I have a Pedler clarinet that was my dad’s, handed down from his older next-door neighbor when he graduated high school in 1942 so it’s probably from the 1930s. Hard rubber, only comes in 2 pieces (bell attached to lower joint, barrel attached to upper joint).

[trombonecat23]

Never seen anything like it before, but the flat wrap is really satisfying-