Converting to in slide tuning

[BrianJohnston]

Hi,

Is it possible to convert an "alto trombone" from standard tuning to in-slide tuning? If so, what are the steps needed?

[hornbuilder]

Anything is possible. You just need a tech who can do I it.

In this case, the slide needs to be converted, which means a complete disassembly and rebuild. The bell also needs to be changed, with an appropriate tapered bell J bend being fabricated.

Why do you want to do this?

[BrianJohnston]

Why do you want to do this?

For intonation. A viable 7th position, but is still in tune in 1st position, and other general intonation stability reasons.

[hornbuilder]

Tuning in slide doesn't change the geometry of the instrument. Infact, converting an existing instrument to TIS reduces the length of available slide length. (If you have the tuning slide out 1/2", you have 1/2" less available length on the 7th position)

To achieve what you want, you need to shorten the bell section, and lengthen the slide section. This means new slide tubes, on top of the complete slide rebuild.

[Burgerbob]

I think another alto would be much easier and simpler of a change.

[Matt K]

Something you might want to consider is foregoing tuning alogether and just adding a "J" bend, that is shorter as Matt indicated. You can lengthenthe slides w/o adding the TIS mechanim. It makes it "untuned" but gives you a light slide and the benefits of the conical "J" bend. Or consider a valve too. But like Aidan mentioned... might be better just to switch altos.

[hornbuilder]

The suggestion of not having a tuning slide also potentially reduces the possible length of 7th position, because you have to play "all" positions longer the lower the group tunes. It's fine if it is the optimal pitch for one group, but if you play in another group which plays flatter, you lose usable side length.

[Danitrb]

I have alto q Shires (tuning in the bell), it is really good instrument. I tried also Custom Shires (TIS) really really good too. I didn't notice different in positions or partials, both easy to play and secure seven position. If you like TIS, I would recommend don't modify your horn, find new one (as other members said). Many factors can affect intonation on alto. I think alto is more susceptible than tenor on this specific topic.

[tbonesullivan]

For intonation. A viable 7th position, but is still in tune in 1st position, and other general intonation stability reasons.

Wait, is this on the 2022 Lätzsch SL 710Y Alto mentioned in your bio?

[BrianJohnston]

For intonation. A viable 7th position, but is still in tune in 1st position, and other general intonation stability reasons.

Wait, is this on the 2022 Lätzsch SL 710Y Alto mentioned in your bio?

Not singling out the LÄTZSCH, regarding most (all?) standard tuning altos. I’ve found the shires with TIS to play more easily in tune.

[hornbuilder]

My (M&W) altos have a full 7th position. They were designed that way, both TIB and TIS.

[tbonesullivan]

Not singling out the LÄTZSCH, regarding most (all?) standard tuning altos. I’ve found the shires with TIS to play more easily in tune.

I have heard before people stating that many alto trombones do not have a "true" 7th position, while I also keep seeing many altos advertised as having a "true" 7th position. I certainly do not think that Lätzsch would be making current designs that do not have a 7th position. I've heard people say that a Bach 39 doesn't have one, but the one I own certainly does.

[harrisonreed]

This is why I had the 36H tuning slide cut down. I leave the tuning slide all the way in, and the thing plays much better in tune with itself. TIS already exists on all trombones in the form of TIH, so my slide is super light without the actual TIS mechanism. And because it's a 36H, I don't need the 7th position, even though it's still there on the very edge of the tubes.

There is enough room on the tuning legs that it can be pulled to where Eb is tunable on the slide bumpers, just in case! So it's truly TIS/TIH/TIB

[imsevimse]

My Bach 39 has seven positions and so do my two cheap Thomann altos, but on alto I tune Eb against the bumper. On tenor I tune Bb off the bumper and then I have almost no seven position. E is within reach but the b can be a problem, it's right where the slide falls off amd my arm isn't fast and long enough. I bend that note in tune if
I have to, or I use a trombone with trigger.

You could solve the problem with a thrill valve on that alto

/Tom

[Matt K]

Altos are a lot more exiciting with a thrill valve!

Jokes aside, if I were playing alto professionally... I definitely would consider the valve. It really makes a world of difference both for trills and for that E. Solves a lot of problems. Either the trill or the Bb. I really liked a Bb valve on my 36H when I had one and it makes lip trills easier, which obviously is not tremendously useful for orchestral rep. An Eb/Db or Eb/C might be useful if you didn't want to add too much weight and just wanted that E to be closer.

[spencercarran]

Not singling out the LÄTZSCH, regarding most (all?) standard tuning altos. I’ve found the shires with TIS to play more easily in tune.

I have heard before people stating that many alto trombones do not have a "true" 7th position, while I also keep seeing many altos advertised as having a "true" 7th position. I certainly do not think that Lätzsch would be making current designs that do not have a 7th position. I've heard people say that a Bach 39 doesn't have one, but the one I own certainly does.

I suspect some number of people just overshoot where alto 7th is and take the slide off the end of the stockings, and on the basis of that become convinced that alto slides are too short...

[stewbones43]

Here's a left field alternative solution.

You will see from my list of horns below that my 36H is pitched in Eb/Bb and D/A (I use the D/A) and some years ago, when I was experimenting with the idea of an alto pitched in D, I made an alto from bits of assorted trombones I had in my workshop. It didn't have a tuning slide in the bell and TIS was far too complicated for my limited expertise so I made it with a tuning receiver like the type used on flugel horns and British style Eb soprano cornets It worked remarkably well and I used it for about 5 years as my only alto until I bought a new 36H.
PS It looked awful with bits in raw brass, bits in shiny silver plate and bits in frosted silver plate, but it sounded fine .

Cheers

Stewbones43

[boneagain]

Hi,

Is it possible to convert an "alto trombone" from standard tuning to in-slide tuning? If so, what are the steps needed?

I think Matthew's "... you would have to fabricate ..." may make sense to you, with your experience.

But for other readers who find this thread, here are some thoughts on that, kinda working backwards.

1) You'll need to bend a tapered tube.
Filling with some kind of pitch (or similar crush-resistant material) is loads of fund
Making just the right bending block so it "springs back" to the shape you want is also fun
2) You'll need to rough form the tapered tube
Even if you have a draw bench, you'll probably start with some hammering
If you make your own tube with taper built in you MIGHT be able to hammer instead of drawing
If you start with cylindrical tube you'll have uneven wall thickness and need a draw bench and dies
If you make your own tube you'll have a long seam to silver solder ( and hammer down later)
3) you'd need to make a tapered mandrel for forming the part that will become the J-bend
You MIGHT get away with a straight taper.
You are looking to improve overtone lineup, so I suspect you need a subtle curve
If you are drawing this the mandrel will be steel.
Your lathe will need a long enough bed and enough horsepower to cut this much steel.
4) Re #3, you may want to figure out the curve rate of your existing bell
so you can continue that curve down to the diameter at the slide end of the neck pipe.
Math will be involved.
Python and other tricks make it easier, but still not a piece of cake.

I made an extended tuning slide for a Conn alto a few years ago. The owner of the Conn replaced it with a TIS Shires shortly after. He sounded better and notably more comfortable on the TIS horn.

BTW: the items above are NOT any kind of recipe. They are just a "tip of the iceberg" idea of what is meant by such a deceptively simple phrase as "... J bend being fabricated."

DEFINITELY want to have a good answer to Matthew's "Why do you want to do this?" before diving in!

[Matt K]

Occurs to me that you could circumvent much of that process if the proportions are similar to Rath altos, sine they make a modular "J" bend. I would guess that a tech would have a much easier time adapting one of those than fabricating one themselves. But the proportions would have to be right and that's getting into franken-territory that I've yet to even cross into which is saying something!

[timothy42b]

3) you'd need to make a tapered mandrel for forming the part that will become the J-bend
You MIGHT get away with a straight taper.
You are looking to improve overtone lineup, so I suspect you need a subtle curve
If you are drawing this the mandrel will be steel.

Good description of how hard it would be to DIY this in brass.

However, you might come pretty close to what you want by doing a wet layup with fiberglas (or whatever high tech reinforcement you choose to use.)

Then you're not drawing, so your mandrel doesn't need much strength. We're only talking about somewhere around six inches of length, right? You could carve or sculpt that fairly easily.

[boneagain]

Interesting thought, Tim.
I wonder about making the desired taper for the underlying form, and attaching to the slide receiver...
looks to me that the carbon fibre guys have this figured out...
the bend, though.... melting pitch out is pretty straightforward...

I'd still need a pretty good reason to go this route

3) you'd need to make a tapered mandrel for forming the part that will become the J-bend
You MIGHT get away with a straight taper.
You are looking to improve overtone lineup, so I suspect you need a subtle curve
If you are drawing this the mandrel will be steel.

Good description of how hard it would be to DIY this in brass.

However, you might come pretty close to what you want by doing a wet layup with fiberglas (or whatever high tech reinforcement you choose to use.)

Then you're not drawing, so your mandrel doesn't need much strength. We're only talking about somewhere around six inches of length, right? You could carve or sculpt that fairly easily.

3) you'd need to make a tapered mandrel for forming the part that will become the J-bend
You MIGHT get away with a straight taper.
You are looking to improve overtone lineup, so I suspect you need a subtle curve
If you are drawing this the mandrel will be steel.

Good description of how hard it would be to DIY this in brass.

However, you might come pretty close to what you want by doing a wet layup with fiberglas (or whatever high tech reinforcement you choose to use.)

Then you're not drawing, so your mandrel doesn't need much strength. We're only talking about somewhere around six inches of length, right? You could carve or sculpt that fairly easily.

[GabrielRice]

I'm not an instrument tech or a designer, but I was there when the TIS Shires alto was developed.

The reasons to do it were exactly what Brian is suggesting: to have a usable 7th position and also have partials that line up in a familiar way. The TIS solution was related to the ratio of cylindrical and tapered tubing, and the control of the taper in the bell section. In order to have the bell section short enough, the taper needed to be basically fixed, without introducing a length of cylindrical tubing in the middle for a tuning slide.

I was not there for the development of the newer bell tuning design, but I see that the small leg of the tuning slide happens much earlier in the length of the instrument than the tenors, and I'm sure that serves a very similar purpose for the taper.

So, to answer your question as best I can, Brian, converting an existing alto to slide tuning will not get you what you like about the Shires TIS altos. Maybe, just maybe, you could take an alto bell you like and have a TIS alto built from it, but essentially none of the rest of the instrument would be usable, and it would be a big expensive experiment that might not work at all. The smaller the instrument gets, the more tiny changes in tapers will affect the tuning of the partials.

[CalgaryTbone]

I've played on a few different altos. The Conn 35H (slide tuning) was probably the least in tune of them, in terms of the overtone series. It was, however, a beautiful sounding instrument (with a "meh" 7th position). My Edwards has a decent 7th position and a fairly predictable overtone series, with a very nice sound (close to the old Conn, with a lot of color). The best 7th position I've ever found was on a modern Conn (34H, but 36H would also be similar). They add length to the bottom outer slide (the part closest to the performer). When you're out in 7th, that adds stability to the way the side blows and I think cuts down on any air leakage out there. Those are nice, "user-friendly" horns, but they just aren't as "colorful" as the old Conns to my ear - a lot more predictable to play, however. I wish some other manufacturers would adopt the same design of the lower outer slide tube as Conn has done - leaving the upper slide tube the same helps reduce some weight and makes the visual clues the same as other trombones for 7th position - I know - don't look, but who doesn't ever take a glance at where your slide is in 7th, particularly on doubles like alto and contra? By the way, the worst horn I tried for 7th was an old Yamaha, borrowed from a colleague - there's a fairly quick passage in Ruy Blas(sp?) by Mendelssohn with an E natural near the end of the lick. Very scary to play!

Jim Scott