Hi Jazz cats....feel free to give your insight about where to start from a learn to improvise...not just noodling around like me, sometimes sucessfully, sometimes not.
Not specifically linked to trombone technique. Something that I can apply to trumpet as well.
Starting to learn improvisation
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ttf_bonenick
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ttf_Graham Martin
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Starting to learn improvisation
We have covered this subject in a lot of detail in two recent posts and it is obvious that members of this forum have very different ideas.
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,96083.0.html
My tips are:
Listen to jazz for as many hours a day as you can find and decide what style of jazz it is you wish to play. Also decide which particular musicians you admire and perhaps wish to sound like. This is ultra important! Learn by ear to play some of their solos and also transcribe a few so that you can start to analyse exactly how they construct a whole solo.
While you are doing this, start to learn your chords and play lots of arpeggio type exercises until you know all the notes in the most common chords: Major, Dominant Seventh, Minor Seventh, Half-Diminished. I am not a great believer in Chord Scale Theory (for every chord there are appropriate scales), as I believe you can construct your own chord note connections for an improvised phrase if you know the jazz language and have a reasonable ear. I do not believe improvisation is about scales and modes. Trombonist Ed Byrne, who posts on this forum, has written similar thoughts - here on the freejazzinstitute.com:
http://freejazzinstitute.com/showposts.php?dept=lji&topic=20081111092403_EdByrne
However, I do believe you must know your scales! More important you should be able to analyse a tune so that you can pick out the Key Centres from the chord progression. Along with Ed's method, you can then use the appropriate notes for each key centre. It is of course a misconception that tunes stay in the one key, as shown by the key signature.
You must also read about how to construct melodic phrases. Normal rules of music apply, as well as the phrasing of the jazz language. The idea is to play great jazz lines!
Beware! This is not the prevailing method of teaching - except by a few very switched on jazz musicians who also teach.
And just one reminder about decided what type of jazz it is you want to play. Improvising for Dixieland can be very different to playing Bebop and beyond - although there are overlaps both ways and all styles pick up techniques from each other.
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,96083.0.html
My tips are:
Listen to jazz for as many hours a day as you can find and decide what style of jazz it is you wish to play. Also decide which particular musicians you admire and perhaps wish to sound like. This is ultra important! Learn by ear to play some of their solos and also transcribe a few so that you can start to analyse exactly how they construct a whole solo.
While you are doing this, start to learn your chords and play lots of arpeggio type exercises until you know all the notes in the most common chords: Major, Dominant Seventh, Minor Seventh, Half-Diminished. I am not a great believer in Chord Scale Theory (for every chord there are appropriate scales), as I believe you can construct your own chord note connections for an improvised phrase if you know the jazz language and have a reasonable ear. I do not believe improvisation is about scales and modes. Trombonist Ed Byrne, who posts on this forum, has written similar thoughts - here on the freejazzinstitute.com:
http://freejazzinstitute.com/showposts.php?dept=lji&topic=20081111092403_EdByrne
However, I do believe you must know your scales! More important you should be able to analyse a tune so that you can pick out the Key Centres from the chord progression. Along with Ed's method, you can then use the appropriate notes for each key centre. It is of course a misconception that tunes stay in the one key, as shown by the key signature.
You must also read about how to construct melodic phrases. Normal rules of music apply, as well as the phrasing of the jazz language. The idea is to play great jazz lines!
Beware! This is not the prevailing method of teaching - except by a few very switched on jazz musicians who also teach.
And just one reminder about decided what type of jazz it is you want to play. Improvising for Dixieland can be very different to playing Bebop and beyond - although there are overlaps both ways and all styles pick up techniques from each other.
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ttf_Piano man
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Starting to learn improvisation
Quote from: bonenick on Mar 31, 2017, 03:30AMHi Jazz cats....feel free to give your insight about where to start from a learn to improvise...not just noodling around like me, sometimes sucessfully, sometimes not.
Not specifically linked to trombone technique. Something that I can apply to trumpet as well.
Noodling around successfully, and sometimes not, is exactly what you should do. Keep doing that until it quits working, then you're ready to learn something else.
When you're ready to learn something else, listen to people who play well, and copy them. Stevie Wonder's harmonica solos work well down an octave on trombone.
It does no good to open a door you're not already pushing on, and 90% of the advice you get on improvising will make you play worse, because it falls into that category.
Graham's advice is excellent, but at the end of the day you need to learn to hear and to play, and there's no good shortcut.
Not specifically linked to trombone technique. Something that I can apply to trumpet as well.
Noodling around successfully, and sometimes not, is exactly what you should do. Keep doing that until it quits working, then you're ready to learn something else.
When you're ready to learn something else, listen to people who play well, and copy them. Stevie Wonder's harmonica solos work well down an octave on trombone.
It does no good to open a door you're not already pushing on, and 90% of the advice you get on improvising will make you play worse, because it falls into that category.
Graham's advice is excellent, but at the end of the day you need to learn to hear and to play, and there's no good shortcut.
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ttf_bonenick
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Starting to learn improvisation
Quote from: Piano man on Mar 31, 2017, 10:00PMNoodling around successfully, and sometimes not, is exactly what you should do.
On **** that I know well and are not too complex it usually works (mostly dixie and simple funk/fusion like Chameleon). But that's not enough anymore. I am starting to contemplate and consider cruise work, but my noodling seems to be unsufficient for that kind of work (on trumpet), so I have to go further. I think I was playing for too long the same stuff with the same people, so I feel I have to go on. Maybe that was one of the reason I added the tbone to my inventory.
On **** that I know well and are not too complex it usually works (mostly dixie and simple funk/fusion like Chameleon). But that's not enough anymore. I am starting to contemplate and consider cruise work, but my noodling seems to be unsufficient for that kind of work (on trumpet), so I have to go further. I think I was playing for too long the same stuff with the same people, so I feel I have to go on. Maybe that was one of the reason I added the tbone to my inventory.
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ttf_Graham Martin
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Starting to learn improvisation
I thought you might be interested in this very new article by Jamey Aebersold:
https://www.jazzbooks.com/blog/jamey/does-everyone-have-it-to-play-jazz-i-mean/
A bit of encouragement from Jamey and a few home truths but, as always, the message is: Practice! Practice! Practice!
https://www.jazzbooks.com/blog/jamey/does-everyone-have-it-to-play-jazz-i-mean/
A bit of encouragement from Jamey and a few home truths but, as always, the message is: Practice! Practice! Practice!
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ttf_Piano man
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Starting to learn improvisation
Graham, it's interesting that my next question for the OP was whether he can sing good solos over the material that he has difficulty improvising over. If so, that narrows the issue down to his ability to translate his ideas to the horn, which is a pretty manageable and approachable issue.
What's interesting is that you posted the Aebersold article, and he raises this very issue. It seems to me that a lot of people are willing to spend thousands of hours developing their technical skills on the horn and their reading skills, but give up rather easily on aural skills. That to me is the only clear path to improvisation (other methods have value, but are auxiliary, in my view). It just takes some time, and a reasonable expectation as to how much time it's going to take.
What's interesting is that you posted the Aebersold article, and he raises this very issue. It seems to me that a lot of people are willing to spend thousands of hours developing their technical skills on the horn and their reading skills, but give up rather easily on aural skills. That to me is the only clear path to improvisation (other methods have value, but are auxiliary, in my view). It just takes some time, and a reasonable expectation as to how much time it's going to take.
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ttf_growlerbox
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Starting to learn improvisation
He had me 'til he wrote "jazzers." Ugh.
Still, on the main point, I think it's pretty indisputable.
Still, on the main point, I think it's pretty indisputable.
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ttf_bonenick
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Starting to learn improvisation
This is not new to me, but since the first 20 years of my training I spent as a classical player, I haven't given previously too much thought on that. Recently I started to try to pick things up by ear (not really transcribing, more like picking up phrases and lick) and I seem to improve, just not as fast as I would like to. 
I seem to have developed a taste for Clark Terry, Wynton Marsalis, James Morisson, Bill Watrous (hardly a surprise) and David Steinmeyer (more the sound than the likcs) just to name a few....
I seem to have developed a taste for Clark Terry, Wynton Marsalis, James Morisson, Bill Watrous (hardly a surprise) and David Steinmeyer (more the sound than the likcs) just to name a few....
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ttf_Piano man
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Starting to learn improvisation
Quote from: bonenick on Apr 04, 2017, 11:50PMThis is not new to me, but since the first 20 years of my training I spent as a classical player, I haven't given previously too much thought on that. Recently I started to try to pick things up by ear (not really transcribing, more like picking up phrases and lick) and I seem to improve, just not as fast as I would like to.
I seem to have developed a taste for Clark Terry, Wynton Marsalis, James Morisson, Bill Watrous (hardly a surprise) just to name a few....
Not referring specifically to this thread, or to you, but oftentimes these threads come from people who have good classical music knowledge, good reading skills, good section playing skills, good technical skills, and so forth, and view the absence of improvisational skill as a little gap in their portfolio, like not being that fast at changing mutes or being a little weak at marching. The problem is that jazz improvisation is not an auxiliary skill but an entire music.
I'm addressing this to you because you're a classical player. Imagine if some guy who knocked around in Elks Clubs and hotels, and could play trad jazz and standards and pop hits and whatever, asked you, "Give me some hints how to do that classical thing you do. I need it for a gig."
The short answer would be, "Listen to and love classical music, and really, really want to play like that, then develop the skills to fulfill that dream." Just like the kid shredding in his parents' basement loves Eddie Van Halen! There's no substitute. You're on the right track with jazz, because you're finding music you like and absorbing it. There's really no other way.
For the person who needs improvisation as some sort of half-assed skill, like needing it in a hurry for a gig or to get moved up a chair in the jazz band, or to stand up and fill in sixteen bars in a big band chart without embarrassing himself, there are workarounds, like working out a set solo or finding some scales that work and playing them like you mean it. But it's not real music--it's a trick. Occasionally I'll work something into a piano solo or accompaniment that faintly resembles classical music, or a like a two-part invention, or "Hall of the Mountain King" or "Rhapsody in Blue" or whatever. It's just convincing enough that people can tell what I'm imitating, and to get a laugh, but it's not classical music, it's a trick.
The steps to learning improvisation are:
1) Find improvised music you love, and really know what makes you like it.
2) Develop your aural skills until you can copy and absorb it.
3) Transcend it and develop your own vocabulary.
Same process as the pimpled doofus with the Chinese Strat copy in his parents' basement, but hopefully better music. Like Clark Terry.
I seem to have developed a taste for Clark Terry, Wynton Marsalis, James Morisson, Bill Watrous (hardly a surprise) just to name a few....
Not referring specifically to this thread, or to you, but oftentimes these threads come from people who have good classical music knowledge, good reading skills, good section playing skills, good technical skills, and so forth, and view the absence of improvisational skill as a little gap in their portfolio, like not being that fast at changing mutes or being a little weak at marching. The problem is that jazz improvisation is not an auxiliary skill but an entire music.
I'm addressing this to you because you're a classical player. Imagine if some guy who knocked around in Elks Clubs and hotels, and could play trad jazz and standards and pop hits and whatever, asked you, "Give me some hints how to do that classical thing you do. I need it for a gig."
The short answer would be, "Listen to and love classical music, and really, really want to play like that, then develop the skills to fulfill that dream." Just like the kid shredding in his parents' basement loves Eddie Van Halen! There's no substitute. You're on the right track with jazz, because you're finding music you like and absorbing it. There's really no other way.
For the person who needs improvisation as some sort of half-assed skill, like needing it in a hurry for a gig or to get moved up a chair in the jazz band, or to stand up and fill in sixteen bars in a big band chart without embarrassing himself, there are workarounds, like working out a set solo or finding some scales that work and playing them like you mean it. But it's not real music--it's a trick. Occasionally I'll work something into a piano solo or accompaniment that faintly resembles classical music, or a like a two-part invention, or "Hall of the Mountain King" or "Rhapsody in Blue" or whatever. It's just convincing enough that people can tell what I'm imitating, and to get a laugh, but it's not classical music, it's a trick.
The steps to learning improvisation are:
1) Find improvised music you love, and really know what makes you like it.
2) Develop your aural skills until you can copy and absorb it.
3) Transcend it and develop your own vocabulary.
Same process as the pimpled doofus with the Chinese Strat copy in his parents' basement, but hopefully better music. Like Clark Terry.
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ttf_savio
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Starting to learn improvisation
I always really wanted to improvice. I remember Bill Watrous in a trombone workshop long time ago. It seems so easy, he could just pick up the horn any time, any place and the notes just flow out from him.
Well, I just have to try but it seems that players like me have to dear to go outside or own comfort zone. I see many of you that have the skill to improvice, often say listen and copy licks? Then expand, transpose and use them? So all of you have a kind of licks/vocabulary you use often? In different keys?
Leif
Well, I just have to try but it seems that players like me have to dear to go outside or own comfort zone. I see many of you that have the skill to improvice, often say listen and copy licks? Then expand, transpose and use them? So all of you have a kind of licks/vocabulary you use often? In different keys?
Leif
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ttf_bonenick
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Starting to learn improvisation
I hear you, Pianoman 
To be honest, long time ago, when I was a student, I perceived jazz and pop more like a form of entertaintment than art. Guilty as charged. Now I see how wrong I was. Even purely technically wise, some of the stuff I try to pick up from those players are worthy of the attention of any player.
For me is more of a career switch than simply picking something up for a particular gig. I have almost no use for my classical playing at present. I still love symphonic stuff, but most of the time I end up playing other stuff.
I was trying for few years already just to get by on gigs requiring improvisation and jazz phrasing. But seems like it ain't gonna happen without serious studies and a real program/strategy.
I don't look for shortcuts and tricks, but rather for approach that will speedify the whole proces.
To be honest, long time ago, when I was a student, I perceived jazz and pop more like a form of entertaintment than art. Guilty as charged. Now I see how wrong I was. Even purely technically wise, some of the stuff I try to pick up from those players are worthy of the attention of any player.
For me is more of a career switch than simply picking something up for a particular gig. I have almost no use for my classical playing at present. I still love symphonic stuff, but most of the time I end up playing other stuff.
I was trying for few years already just to get by on gigs requiring improvisation and jazz phrasing. But seems like it ain't gonna happen without serious studies and a real program/strategy.
I don't look for shortcuts and tricks, but rather for approach that will speedify the whole proces.
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ttf_Piano man
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Starting to learn improvisation
Can you improvise by singing? Like scat singing? Don't concentrate so much on the quality of your voice, but on finding ideas that fit with the music.
Also, are you good at spontaneously playing music by ear? I mean, familiar melodies that you know very well, can you play them without sheet music?
Those are the two main skills. Beyond that, it's listening to good music and developing facility on the instrument.
How are your piano skills? Piano's probably the easiest instrument for understanding chord structures, and most people (but not all) who improvise successfully have some keyboard skills.
As I said, you're on the right track because you're enjoying the music.
Also, are you good at spontaneously playing music by ear? I mean, familiar melodies that you know very well, can you play them without sheet music?
Those are the two main skills. Beyond that, it's listening to good music and developing facility on the instrument.
How are your piano skills? Piano's probably the easiest instrument for understanding chord structures, and most people (but not all) who improvise successfully have some keyboard skills.
As I said, you're on the right track because you're enjoying the music.
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ttf_Krazzikk
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Starting to learn improvisation
I'm barely qualified to give advice on this subject since I just started really learning how to improvise maybe 6-12 months ago, but I'll give some things that I did that really helped me. Just so you guys know where I'm coming from, especially since I'm new to this forum: I'm a 16 year old high school sophmore, I've been playing for 5 years(jazz for 2 but didn't really start taking my personal jazz musicianship seriously until about 6 months ago), and I'm first chair in both my school's jazz band and concert band, for what it's worth.
I had somewhat of a small epiphany when one day I turned on a play-along track(it was like track two of Jamey Aebersold's How to Play Jazz and Improvise, real easy and slow changes I was familiar with) while I was home alone, and I closed my eyes and just tried to get as into the music as I could, moving my body, listening critically. When I closed my eyes it turned off the visual and technical thinking that is induced by seeing your slide and diverts more thinking to what your hearing, and allows you to be more creative.
Equally as important was the fact that my parents weren't home. I realized a lot of my playing is controlled by my fear of disturbing other people in the house, or how I'm being perceived. When I'm home alone I feel an overwhelming freedom to play whatever, and however I want which is crucial to playing from the heart, and improvising, playing what's in your head, etc. In addition, I also realized from this experience that I have developed a few bad habits when it comes to air usage and tone. I developed the habit of kind of half-assing my air usage and not playing dynamically enough because I didn't want to play too loud in the house. This lead to me not using enough air and thus not having the tone I want, especially when soloing.
Of course, I'm sure not everyone lives with other people or has the same issues I do in this regard, but I think it's important to make sure you're playing in an environment where you feel free to just blow. Now I try to practice as much as I can whenever my parents leave the house. I wonder if anyone else has had similar experiences.
I had somewhat of a small epiphany when one day I turned on a play-along track(it was like track two of Jamey Aebersold's How to Play Jazz and Improvise, real easy and slow changes I was familiar with) while I was home alone, and I closed my eyes and just tried to get as into the music as I could, moving my body, listening critically. When I closed my eyes it turned off the visual and technical thinking that is induced by seeing your slide and diverts more thinking to what your hearing, and allows you to be more creative.
Equally as important was the fact that my parents weren't home. I realized a lot of my playing is controlled by my fear of disturbing other people in the house, or how I'm being perceived. When I'm home alone I feel an overwhelming freedom to play whatever, and however I want which is crucial to playing from the heart, and improvising, playing what's in your head, etc. In addition, I also realized from this experience that I have developed a few bad habits when it comes to air usage and tone. I developed the habit of kind of half-assing my air usage and not playing dynamically enough because I didn't want to play too loud in the house. This lead to me not using enough air and thus not having the tone I want, especially when soloing.
Of course, I'm sure not everyone lives with other people or has the same issues I do in this regard, but I think it's important to make sure you're playing in an environment where you feel free to just blow. Now I try to practice as much as I can whenever my parents leave the house. I wonder if anyone else has had similar experiences.
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ttf_Piano man
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Starting to learn improvisation
Quote from: Krazzikk on Apr 07, 2017, 08:55AMI'm barely qualified to give advice on this subject since I just started really learning how to improvise maybe 6-12 months ago, but I'll give some things that I did that really helped me.
I think your advice is most qualified because you're early enough in the path to give advice that's germane to the OP. A lot of us have kind of forgotten how we learned this stuff.
Your point about being able to try it without being self-conscious is excellent (a 'safe space'), as is your suggestion to use play-alongs. One of the hardships of playing in school jazz band is that you finally get your one chorus, you tighten up and panic a little, then you sit back down wishing you'd played something different. Using tracks gives you a chance to stretch out a little and try things, without the pressure of other people hearing you experiment.
You're also noticing the mental change of playing by ear. There's the technical side to aural skills--chiefly learning to recognize intervals, notice a note's place in the key, and notice a note's role in a chord--but as you notice there's a mental shift as well. The process of looking at dots on a page and making the correct slide and lip adjustments on the horn must be a very different brain pathway from imagining a sound or idea then executing it. The best players seem to completely integrate these aspects of playing--they see a row of notes or chords, know in advance what they're going to sound like, and play them by ear.
I think your advice is most qualified because you're early enough in the path to give advice that's germane to the OP. A lot of us have kind of forgotten how we learned this stuff.
Your point about being able to try it without being self-conscious is excellent (a 'safe space'), as is your suggestion to use play-alongs. One of the hardships of playing in school jazz band is that you finally get your one chorus, you tighten up and panic a little, then you sit back down wishing you'd played something different. Using tracks gives you a chance to stretch out a little and try things, without the pressure of other people hearing you experiment.
You're also noticing the mental change of playing by ear. There's the technical side to aural skills--chiefly learning to recognize intervals, notice a note's place in the key, and notice a note's role in a chord--but as you notice there's a mental shift as well. The process of looking at dots on a page and making the correct slide and lip adjustments on the horn must be a very different brain pathway from imagining a sound or idea then executing it. The best players seem to completely integrate these aspects of playing--they see a row of notes or chords, know in advance what they're going to sound like, and play them by ear.
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ttf_Piano man
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Starting to learn improvisation
Quote from: savio on Apr 05, 2017, 01:31AMI always really wanted to improvice. I remember Bill Watrous in a trombone workshop long time ago. It seems so easy, he could just pick up the horn any time, any place and the notes just flow out from him.
Well, I just have to try but it seems that players like me have to dear to go outside or own comfort zone. I see many of you that have the skill to improvice, often say listen and copy licks? Then expand, transpose and use them? So all of you have a kind of licks/vocabulary you use often? In different keys?
Leif
The subject of licks is a little controversial. Some people look at them in a negative sense, as in players who rely on them too much, and expect an improvising musician to produce an endless stream of spontaneous ideas. Still, no musician is without them, and they can be building blocks along which we string more spontaneous playing.
I think it's more fruitful to copy entire solos than licks, although it's inevitable to copy licks. As your ear training gets better, you'll automatically learn other people's licks every time you listen to music. But this can miss the thing you really liked about the solo, which is likely to be rhythmic and structural. A lot of early improvisers play mostly right notes but are corny and dull rhythmically. If you copy a whole solo that you like, you'll absorb those ideas and not just the note choices.
Well, I just have to try but it seems that players like me have to dear to go outside or own comfort zone. I see many of you that have the skill to improvice, often say listen and copy licks? Then expand, transpose and use them? So all of you have a kind of licks/vocabulary you use often? In different keys?
Leif
The subject of licks is a little controversial. Some people look at them in a negative sense, as in players who rely on them too much, and expect an improvising musician to produce an endless stream of spontaneous ideas. Still, no musician is without them, and they can be building blocks along which we string more spontaneous playing.
I think it's more fruitful to copy entire solos than licks, although it's inevitable to copy licks. As your ear training gets better, you'll automatically learn other people's licks every time you listen to music. But this can miss the thing you really liked about the solo, which is likely to be rhythmic and structural. A lot of early improvisers play mostly right notes but are corny and dull rhythmically. If you copy a whole solo that you like, you'll absorb those ideas and not just the note choices.
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ttf_Pre59
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Starting to learn improvisation
I got a lot from watching Jazz Guitar tuition DVD's by Jimmy Bruno, and Joe Pass etc. Relearning patterns changing them from Maj to Min, or Dim and working in as many keys as possible has been useful. Also Pentatonics, and for me the Dim scale 2 is great around Dominant chords. Also, learning intervals all over the horn in many positions as possible has been good for playing in the lower range of the horn, and for getting out of trouble if I'm at the far end of the slide at the end of a phrase.
I'm happiest playing around the GAS sequences, but I have an admiration for the folks who can solo "ad nauseam" over 2 chords, seemingly without repeating themselves..
I'm happiest playing around the GAS sequences, but I have an admiration for the folks who can solo "ad nauseam" over 2 chords, seemingly without repeating themselves..
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ttf_bonenick
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Starting to learn improvisation
It may not be a wise thing to post things that are not so perfect, but for me is a beginning, a first atempt both at improvisation with some real elements (not always sucessfuly incorporated though) and alternating trombone and trumpet (that's a tough one and still rough)
https://youtu.be/6dbqIH58CF0
feel free to comment, but be civil
Both my trumpet and trombone playing are suffering from these switches, but I hope to minimize the setbacks with time and practice of this approach.
I am aware that my posture is not perfect, my working station is far from optimal...and when I get too much on my mind (switching instruments, improvisation, embouchure issues) I get back to my bad habits
https://youtu.be/6dbqIH58CF0
feel free to comment, but be civil
Both my trumpet and trombone playing are suffering from these switches, but I hope to minimize the setbacks with time and practice of this approach.
I am aware that my posture is not perfect, my working station is far from optimal...and when I get too much on my mind (switching instruments, improvisation, embouchure issues) I get back to my bad habits
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ttf_Piano man
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Starting to learn improvisation
Sounds great, man.
You do a good job of using repetition and space to build your solos, and you have a great sound.
I'll make two suggestions that will 'sell' what you're already doing--both of them have to do with timing.
First, you're rushing a little on some phrases. I'd figure some of that has to do with the hectic pace of horn changes, but playing something right in time (or maybe a little behind) gives it a much more confident sound and more authority. Make yourself, and your listener, wait. Play it fat. Go back and listen to the Morrison cuts and you'll see what I mean--he really lands those phrases.
The second has to do with the 'swing feel'--tthe relationship between the first and second 8th in each pair of a run. The way you're playikng them is gnerally a triplet feel--like an 8th-note triplet divided as a quarter and an 8th. This is traditional and completely valid. The opposite is playing 8th notes perfectly straight and even. I know you're thinking, "Then it wouldn't be swing", but trust me, it works. A more even distribution of 8ths in a swing context is generally perceived as more modern.
I would suggest the following: Play something very much like you played on this track, but stick to trumpet for easier concentration. Force yourself to play every eighth note completely even--no 'swing feel' at all. Play them legato, and I guarantee they'll swing over the walking bass. Instead of sounding like 'dot-da-dot-da-dot-da-dot-da' it will sound like 'ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba'. It will feel very unnatural at first. It might be easier to accent the upbeats, but still play straight 8ths (!)--'ba-BA-ba-BA-ba-BA-ba-BA'.
This will feel like getting teeth pulled at first, but it will loosen up your playing once you get used to it. Play the straight 8ths legato, and trust the band to swing for you. The fun comes from being able to mix the swingier phrasing with the straighter phrasing, which will sound conversational and loose. And everything between is available. I've always been a little afraid to analyze swing feel, because I was afraid if I thought about it too much I'd quit being able to do it, but I saw a great thesis analyzing great jazz performances by ratios between 8th notes. As I expected, the ratios became more even as you went from swing to bop to post-bop. The short path to this freedom is to become comfortable playing straight 8ths over swing, then forget about it and just play.
The corollary to this is to be comfortable playing 16ths over a swing feel--not like a 'double-it-up-boys' sort of thing but just as a natural subdivision of the beat. This is harder because you have to come up with more notes, but try switching from triplets to an 8th-and-two-16ths rhythm. The latter has no more notes in the bar than the triplets would, but it's still a 16th subdivision. Thinking in 16ths is another way to get to the straight-8th swing feel.
I know this isn't the exact advice you're looking for, but people who play simple things with exquisite time and timing always blow everyone away.
You do a good job of using repetition and space to build your solos, and you have a great sound.
I'll make two suggestions that will 'sell' what you're already doing--both of them have to do with timing.
First, you're rushing a little on some phrases. I'd figure some of that has to do with the hectic pace of horn changes, but playing something right in time (or maybe a little behind) gives it a much more confident sound and more authority. Make yourself, and your listener, wait. Play it fat. Go back and listen to the Morrison cuts and you'll see what I mean--he really lands those phrases.
The second has to do with the 'swing feel'--tthe relationship between the first and second 8th in each pair of a run. The way you're playikng them is gnerally a triplet feel--like an 8th-note triplet divided as a quarter and an 8th. This is traditional and completely valid. The opposite is playing 8th notes perfectly straight and even. I know you're thinking, "Then it wouldn't be swing", but trust me, it works. A more even distribution of 8ths in a swing context is generally perceived as more modern.
I would suggest the following: Play something very much like you played on this track, but stick to trumpet for easier concentration. Force yourself to play every eighth note completely even--no 'swing feel' at all. Play them legato, and I guarantee they'll swing over the walking bass. Instead of sounding like 'dot-da-dot-da-dot-da-dot-da' it will sound like 'ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba'. It will feel very unnatural at first. It might be easier to accent the upbeats, but still play straight 8ths (!)--'ba-BA-ba-BA-ba-BA-ba-BA'.
This will feel like getting teeth pulled at first, but it will loosen up your playing once you get used to it. Play the straight 8ths legato, and trust the band to swing for you. The fun comes from being able to mix the swingier phrasing with the straighter phrasing, which will sound conversational and loose. And everything between is available. I've always been a little afraid to analyze swing feel, because I was afraid if I thought about it too much I'd quit being able to do it, but I saw a great thesis analyzing great jazz performances by ratios between 8th notes. As I expected, the ratios became more even as you went from swing to bop to post-bop. The short path to this freedom is to become comfortable playing straight 8ths over swing, then forget about it and just play.
The corollary to this is to be comfortable playing 16ths over a swing feel--not like a 'double-it-up-boys' sort of thing but just as a natural subdivision of the beat. This is harder because you have to come up with more notes, but try switching from triplets to an 8th-and-two-16ths rhythm. The latter has no more notes in the bar than the triplets would, but it's still a 16th subdivision. Thinking in 16ths is another way to get to the straight-8th swing feel.
I know this isn't the exact advice you're looking for, but people who play simple things with exquisite time and timing always blow everyone away.
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ttf_Piano man
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Starting to learn improvisation
Quote from: Pre59 on Apr 07, 2017, 11:59AMI got a lot from watching Jazz Guitar tuition DVD's by Jimmy Bruno, and Joe Pass etc. Relearning patterns changing them from Maj to Min, or Dim and working in as many keys as possible has been useful. Also Pentatonics, and for me the Dim scale 2 is great around Dominant chords. Also, learning intervals all over the horn in many positions as possible has been good for playing in the lower range of the horn, and for getting out of trouble if I'm at the far end of the slide at the end of a phrase.
I'm happiest playing around the GAS sequences, but I have an admiration for the folks who can solo "ad nauseam" over 2 chords, seemingly without repeating themselves..
I agree that the pentatonic and diminished scales are very useful. When I hear people analyzing ii-V7-I progressions and converting them to major scales as a method for finding notes, it invariably sounds rattly and unmusical (you can certainly find great jazz performances where this occurs, but they sound like they're arriving at it from a different direction).
I'll keep saying this: Wait until no one else is listening, and practice scat singing. Sing your ass off when no one is listening. That's why we have stereos in our cars.
I'm happiest playing around the GAS sequences, but I have an admiration for the folks who can solo "ad nauseam" over 2 chords, seemingly without repeating themselves..
I agree that the pentatonic and diminished scales are very useful. When I hear people analyzing ii-V7-I progressions and converting them to major scales as a method for finding notes, it invariably sounds rattly and unmusical (you can certainly find great jazz performances where this occurs, but they sound like they're arriving at it from a different direction).
I'll keep saying this: Wait until no one else is listening, and practice scat singing. Sing your ass off when no one is listening. That's why we have stereos in our cars.
-
ttf_Piano man
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Starting to learn improvisation
Quote from: Pre59 on Apr 07, 2017, 11:59AMI got a lot from watching Jazz Guitar tuition DVD's by Jimmy Bruno, and Joe Pass etc. Relearning patterns changing them from Maj to Min, or Dim and working in as many keys as possible has been useful. Also Pentatonics, and for me the Dim scale 2 is great around Dominant chords. Also, learning intervals all over the horn in many positions as possible has been good for playing in the lower range of the horn, and for getting out of trouble if I'm at the far end of the slide at the end of a phrase.
I'm happiest playing around the GAS sequences, but I have an admiration for the folks who can solo "ad nauseam" over 2 chords, seemingly without repeating themselves..
I agree that the pentatonic and diminished scales are very useful. When I hear people analyzing ii-V7-I progressions and converting them to major scales as a method for finding notes, it invariably sounds rattly and unmusical (you can certainly find great jazz performances where this occurs, but they sound like they're arriving at it from a different direction).
I'll keep saying this: Wait until no one else is listening, and practice scat singing. Sing your ass off when no one is listening. That's why we have stereos in our cars.
I'm happiest playing around the GAS sequences, but I have an admiration for the folks who can solo "ad nauseam" over 2 chords, seemingly without repeating themselves..
I agree that the pentatonic and diminished scales are very useful. When I hear people analyzing ii-V7-I progressions and converting them to major scales as a method for finding notes, it invariably sounds rattly and unmusical (you can certainly find great jazz performances where this occurs, but they sound like they're arriving at it from a different direction).
I'll keep saying this: Wait until no one else is listening, and practice scat singing. Sing your ass off when no one is listening. That's why we have stereos in our cars.