Help! Which to buy: Bach 36 or 42?

[cboalesjr]

Hi! New to the chat, but good to be here. As stated above, I would invite input from the group regarding your thoughts on 42 vs 36. Basics: played in HS and some in college; taught by George Trombley, founder of Santa Rosa CA Symphony, who claimed I was very good at that stage. Stopped playing until 5 years ago (I'm in my seventies), and that ended when my son "borrowed" my small bore trombone. I now have some time, and I've been an athlete all my life, so my lung power is quite good. Have wanted a 42 forever, but it appears the 36 may be just a bit more balanced. I will play for my own enjoyment, but will work hard to be good in a year. May play with others then. Is a 42 too difficult to blow for many of you? Thanks for any help.

[Posaunus]

Bach 36 is a great choice, especially for us older folk. It also seems to me that you're a bit more likely to find a (used) 36 in better shape than a (used) 42. You might want to look for a (used but well-preserved) Bach 36B (with closed wrap F-attachment).

Of course there are lots of other options than Bach. You won't lack for "helpful" advice from TromboneChat members!

[cboalesjr]

Thanks! I am looking at open box stuff right now... You are good with the closed vs open wrap?

[hyperbolica]

I'd vote for the 36. They can be a great choice for just about anything. I don't think there's any reason to get a 42 instead of a 36, unless you're really trying to play bass on a tenor. Medium bore horns are seeing a resurgence in the last couple of years. I play a Conn equivalent of a 36, and even though I love my 88h, I'll pick up my medium bore every time instead. In your 70s, air volume and weight will probably become an issue at some point, even if you're in good shape.

Congrats on getting back to it. Playing with others is the best way to get the most out of playing an instrument.

[cboalesjr]

Thank you! I appreciate your advice very much. I did read somewhere that going with a "large" mouthpiece with small shank would also add power. Article mentioned Bach 6.5 AL. Anyway, thanks again. I don't need to prove anything, so the 36 is trending heavily!

[Trav1s]

Another nod to a good 36B or any .525 horn but I won't go down that rabbit hole and talk about the other options to consider.

[cboalesjr]

Thank you! I know there are options...wanted a 42 , but don't think I could manage it! Take care.

[Posaunus]

Thanks! I am looking at open box stuff right now... You are good with the closed vs open wrap?

I think the Bach 36B with closed wrap is a fine trombone. (And less vulnerable to damage from behind.) My 36B was the best Bach that I've played. I only replaced it when I stumbled on a near-mint Conn 79H (0.522" bore) which I like a little better.

Buy a 36B (used or open box), play it with others, and be happy!

[brassmedic]

If you play in a symphony orchestra, you want a 42, because that is the standard. If you want an all around horn good for shows, etc. 36 is great.

[timothy42b]

I bought a 42B in 1971, didn't know they came in different sizes.

I wish it were a 36 instead, for what I do as a nonprofessional it would fit better.

[Mamaposaune]

The choice of slide, either a nickle-silver lightweight or the brass outer with nickle oversleeves regular-weight, is going to make more of a difference in sound and response than open or closed wrap. Both have their fans, I prefer the lightweights.
And, I agree with those recommending the 36 over the 42. It's just a great all-around horn.

[cboalesjr]

Thanks! I am planning to get a lightweight slide, and possibly a gold bell. Read somewhere that that combo would aid articulation, with the bell darkening the sound. Great advice re: the LT slide!

[elmsandr]

If you can, try before you buy. A LOT of people a lot better than me like the LT slides. I hate them. I hate nickel slides on most all makes of horns. Even players that I think are fantastic…. I prefer the way they sound on brass slides. I have some very specific examples of players you have probably heard that I can reference first hand. I just prefer the sound of the brass. YMMV. Does it really matter? Probably not that much, but it is enough that it bothers me while playing. I just don’t feel like I can get the nickel to resonate.

Cheers,
Andy

[cboalesjr]

Thanks, Andy! Appreciate the feedback. Hopefully I'll have a chance to play a few to help me decide. Take care.

[cboalesjr]

Thanks to each of you for your insightful comments. I wanted to let you know the result: I just bought an LT36BOG (gold bell, lightweight slide, and a 6.5 AL mouthpiece). Hope it plays as beautifully as it looks (realizing I'm responsible for the tone). You each gave me bits of the puzzle I had in my mind. To alsandr, appreciate your specific comments; I got the LT slide because I'm hoping the gold bell will provide the desired resonance. I can try a friend's brass slide for comparison, so jury is out until I can get my hands on this trombone. Happy New Year, everyone!

[imsevimse]

Thanks to each of you for your insightful comments. I wanted to let you know the result: I just bought an LT36BOG (gold bell, lightweight slide, and a 6.5 AL mouthpiece). Hope it plays as beautifully as it looks (realizing I'm responsible for the tone). You each gave me bits of the puzzle I had in my mind. To alsandr, appreciate your specific comments; I got the LT slide because I'm hoping the gold bell will provide the desired resonance. I can try a friend's brass slide for comparison, so jury is out until I can get my hands on this trombone. Happy New Year, everyone!

Good choice! I think you will be satisfied with a Bach 36. I do own many trombones. I have both a Bach 36BO and Bach 42 as well as a Bach 42B. I'm a crazy collector who needs every horn, but I have never felt I have had a real musical need for those bigger horns, they are just for fun and variation. They might be what you expect to bring to a symphony orchestra, but even that depends on what symphony orchestra. A professional symphony orchestra maybe but not a community orchestra. I have used my Bach 36 for first part in a community symphony orchestras and in a professional windorchestra as well as for first part in brass band and first part in a brass quartet. It might even due for the tenor big band parts with the right choice of mouthpiece. If you play at home mostly I think that Bach 36 will be more easy work compared to a Bach 42, especially as you have many choices of mouthpieces on that small shank, that makes it very flexible

/Tom

[cboalesjr]

Tom, thank you! Since I am getting back into playing after many years, I wanted to be realistic. I think I'll be good again after a year; I just read too many comments, including this thread, regarding the work of playing a 42 vs 36. I appreciate the comments, and you have actually summed things up nicely for me. Ultimately I will be able to play duets or work with a piano. But it's mostly for the thrill of using such a beautiful instrument and the possibility of making lovely music. Thanks for your words. Take Care. Charlie

[cboalesjr]

If you play in a symphony orchestra, you want a 42, because that is the standard. If you want an all around horn good for shows, etc. 36 is great.

Thank you. I can realize my limitations and will go with the smaller bore. Should be lovely. Charlie

[Posaunus]

Charlie,
I'm sure you will enjoy getting your chops back with your shiny new Bach 36BOG, and playing duets with your son.
If you want to join some ensembles or meet other trombonists, let us know where you live and perhaps we can make introductions. And also refer you to a local competent trombone tech.
Happy new year.

[cboalesjr]

Thank you! I am very excited, and fortunate, to have such a great instrument. You're right, playing with my son would be so much fun. I'm on northern California. I appreciate the offer; once I feel somewhat competent, I may indeed reach out again. We all share a love of the trombone, so there's a bond. Best wishes for the New Year! Charlie

[sf105]

A friend I play with bought an old 36 after a lifetime of playing a 42B. She sounds so much better. Even at the higher levels of amateur playing, very few of use need the full weight of a heavy large-bore.

[cboalesjr]

Thank you! That is most helpful. I have wanted a 42 for a long time, but I think I will be very happy with the LT36BOG on its way to me. I want a nice tone, and your remarks reinforce the thought that I made a good decision. Best wishes for the new year!

[EriKon]

Congratulations on the new horn! I happen to have the exact same horn () from late 90s if I recall correctly and I absolutely love it. Very versatile trombone and likely my go-to horn if I'd have to keep one horn only.

Regarding the mouthpiece, I absolutely recommend to contact Doug Elliott if you have a bit money to spare. His new No. 4* backbore/shank (specifically for this horn with the .525 bore) works absolutely incredible on this horn (for me in combination with an XT E setup, but that might be individual).

Enjoy your new horn and most importantly have fun!

[cboalesjr]

Thank you! I had read that good mouthpiece options were available for this specific horn, so it is nice to have a specific suggestion. Can you clarify the XT E combo; I don't know what that is. And thanks again! Charlie

[ithinknot]

http://dougelliottmouthpieces.com/ - 3 piece mouthpieces, screw rim/cup/shank

Rim suits your face (and determines which 'series' you need - XT covers rim diameters in the Bach 5G-2G range, LT/MT/ST are smaller), cup depth is horn-related but also depends on your tastes, shank pairs with the cup and the bore size of the horn

So an XT E setup for a 36B - which I can confirm is stupidly good - is:

- an XT series rim (I play an N104 - roughly a Bach 3 diameter, but narrow contour)
- the XT series E cup (roughly the depth of a Bach 6.5AL - a nice middle of the road choice for a 36)
- and an E4* shank (a shank that matches the E cup, and is designed to work with .525 bores)

[Posaunus]

Thank you! I had read that good mouthpiece options were available for this specific horn, so it is nice to have a specific suggestion. Can you clarify the XT E combo; I don't know what that is. And thanks again! Charlie

You should look at Doug Elliott's Website to begin understanding his system.
http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com

He manufactures trombone mouthpieces as a 3-piece system. Each “system” consists of a brass Shank including excellent backbore tapers developed by Doug, a silver-plated Cup, and a silver-plated Rim. Each component is appropriately threaded, and they are (to an extent) interchangeable.

Cup, and a silver-plated Rim. Each component is appropriately threaded, and they are (to an extent)
For your 36B (0.525" bore) trombone, Doug would probably suggest his "LT series" {Larger Tenor trombone mouthpieces, from 0.98" through 1.04" inside cup diameter. This is the original and most versatile series for small bore and large bore tenor trombone}. The appropriate shank would be his "4" size {backbore for 0.525" bore small shank trombones}.

Then you have a few choices to make. I have chosen for the Cup "LT E" {medium, for all types of playing} - a middle-of-the-road choice, perhaps similar to a 6½AL. The Rim is a matter of personal choice - it depends to some extent on your anatomy and your embouchure, and possibly also the type of playing you'll be doing. I have made a middle-of-the-road choice of an LT 100 Rim (1.00" I.D.) {similar in diameter to Bach 6½AL, Schilke 50, or a Wick 6B} because it works well for me on my medium-bore trombone (a Conn 79H). This LT 100 Rim screws on to the LT E Cup with no discontinuities - you'd swear it was all one piece the mating is so smooth. The cup in turn threads seamlessly onto an E4 Shank (the letter on the shank must match the letter on the cup), so the throat (in this case 0.250" diameter) will transition smoothly to the backbore. Trust me - it's better than Legos!

My Doug Elliott medium-bore system (incorporating a newer E* backbore) is thus:
E4* (small) Shank / LT E Cup / LT 100 Rim

I hope my description and explanation are accurate. Feel free to contact Doug for more information - he's quite accessible and very helpful.

[harrisonreed]

I would only use a Bach 42 as a last resort. A good 36 is way better from a design perspective.

Every 42 I've tried feels like it has a sock stuck somewhere in the tuning slide, with the exception of one 42T a long time ago.

[Joebone]

Congrats on the 36 - my first pro-level horn when I started gigging for a living - used it for salsa, jazz, commercial R&B, society stuff, andthe occasional legit gig. Transitioned to 42BGlt. when I needed a trigger for a 4-year stint - and used that horn for everything except salsa - but 35 years later, I couldn't imagine using a 42 like that! I still have three 36's and am selling a fourth. And I'm a fan of the Bach gold brass bell/lightweight slide combo - hoping you have a blast with yours!

[cboalesjr]

Thanks! Agree I'd just wear myself out on a 42...cool to hear that you like your setup. Can hardly wait to hear the sound...and to see the horn! Appreciate yourgood wishes. Take care.

[Doug Elliott]

Thanks for the nice words and accurate descriptions of my mouthpieces. When I play my 36B, which is not very often unfortunately, I use XT N104, E, E4*. The E cup (either LT or XT) with E4* shank is a perfect match for the 36, with whatever rim size suits you.

[cboalesjr]

I've never been exposed to mouthpiece designs before, so your site was enlightening. Thanks to posaunus, I now know about you. Once I have my horn, I'll be able to evaluate my needs. Thanks and take care.

[cboalesjr]

I would only use a Bach 42 as a last resort. A good 36 is way better from a design perspective.

Every 42 I've tried feels like it has a sock stuck somewhere in the tuning slide, with the exception of one 42T a long time ago.

Have been rereading these posts. I laughed when I (again) saw your comment about the sock, because I watched a YouTube video yesterday about a slide repair. The owner of a Bach 42 had gotten something stuck in an inner slide tube, and in trying to get it out, he had tweaked the tube, hence the video repair. The item, when it was being tugged out, appeared to be about a foot and a half long. It turned out to be a very large handkerchief about a foot square! It had been oh so carefully tightly wrapped on a diagonal, so of course the center was thicker than either end. It was awesome! I'm just starting to play after decades, and even I know that the 42 bore is not quite that big. Very entertaining.

[cboalesjr]

Charlie,
I'm sure you will enjoy getting your chops back with your shiny new Bach 36BOG, and playing duets with your son.
If you want to join some ensembles or meet other trombonists, let us know where you live and perhaps we can make introductions. And also refer you to a local competent trombone tech.
Happy new year.

Circling back to your post. I Live in Chico, CA, and would indeed like to know of a competent tech. I've never played with an f valve, and eventually I'm sure I'll need to have some maintenance done. Thank you for the offer. Charlie

[timothy42b]

Charlie,
I'm sure you will enjoy getting your chops back with your shiny new Bach 36BOG, and playing duets with your son.
If you want to join some ensembles or meet other trombonists, let us know where you live and perhaps we can make introductions. And also refer you to a local competent trombone tech.
Happy new year.

Circling back to your post. I Live in Chico, CA, and would indeed like to know of a competent tech. I've never played with an f valve, and eventually I'm sure I'll need to have some maintenance done. Thank you for the offer. Charlie

If you keep it well oiled you I wouldn't think you would need much valve maintenance. I didn't know that when I bought mine and forums like this didn't exist back then.

[elmsandr]

Charlie,
I'm sure you will enjoy getting your chops back with your shiny new Bach 36BOG, and playing duets with your son.
If you want to join some ensembles or meet other trombonists, let us know where you live and perhaps we can make introductions. And also refer you to a local competent trombone tech.
Happy new year.

Circling back to your post. I Live in Chico, CA, and would indeed like to know of a competent tech. I've never played with an f valve, and eventually I'm sure I'll need to have some maintenance done. Thank you for the offer. Charlie

If it is a standard rotor… just feed it some oil occasionally. Don’t switch oils too often so they mix in the valve. Don’t take it apart unless you know what you are doing.

Of the many horns and valves I have, the standard rotor requires the least maintenance. By that, I mean almost none. Haven’t done anything other than a drop or two of oil on the spindle and bearing in the last decade. (It’s also from 1953). Works great.

Cheers,
Andy

[Posaunus]

Circling back to your post. I Live in Chico, CA, and would indeed like to know of a competent tech. I've never played with an f valve, and eventually I'm sure I'll need to have some maintenance done. Thank you for the offer. Charlie

Charlie,

As already noted, it's not like you'll need a tech to keep your F-attachment trombone playing. My only reasons to visit my tech are:
† Trauma. Had some sort of accident that requires repair. (Has happened to me only twice in decades of playing.)
† Purchased a used trombone that is in worse condition than represented by seller. Usually requires cleaning or alignment of slide. Sometimes rotor needs minor adjustment.

Standard rotors are very robust. Once they're aligned, all they need is a few drops of oil at regular intervals.
I use three different oils (I like Hetman) for the 3 areas of the rotary valve that need lubrication:
• Valve oil (dripped down the bell receiver) for the valve body,
• Rotor oil (under the screw cap) for the spindle,
• Bearing & Linkage oil for the externals.
I think all three are essential to best performance and long maintenance-free life.

You will of course want to also meticulously maintain your slide. This means
† Treating the slide very delicately.
† Using a good slide lubricant, such as Yamaha, Slide-O-Mix, or Ultra-Pure - and only a distilled water spray to refresh.
† Regular slide hygiene. My protocol:
... • A soft cloth to wipe off any lubricant from the outside of the inner slide;
... • An HWP Brass-Saver (soft brush with a long plastic lead ribbon) pulled through both inner and outer slides to remove debris, old lubricant, and moisture;
... • Strips of cotton bedsheet wrapped around a cleaning rod, or a Slide-O-Mix terry "towel sheath" (red sheath for medium-bore; blue sheath for large-bore slides) slipped over a cleaning rod to carefully and thoroughly dry the inside of the outer slide.

All of this prophylaxis will largely eliminate the need to visit a tech.
You may not find a great tech in Chico (though there could be one at a good music store).
You may have to drive to Sacramento. If you want to to drive even further, a highly recommended tech is Shawn at Wind & Brass on Solano Avenue in Berkeley.

Enjoy your trombone!

[timothy42b]

Standard rotors are very robust. Once they're aligned, all they need is a few drops of oil at regular intervals.
I use three different oils (I like Hetman) for the 3 areas of the rotary valve that need lubrication:
• Valve oil (dripped down the bell receiver) for the valve body,
• Rotor oil (under the screw cap) for the spindle,
• Bearing & Linkage oil for the externals.
I think all three are essential to best performance and long maintenance-free life.

Agree but sooner or later the bumpers will probably wear down and need replacement.

[Posaunus]

Agree but sooner or later the bumpers will probably wear down and need replacement.

Much later, I would expect. My bumpers have lasted a long time.
And the tech at the music store is more than capable of replacing bumpers!

[cboalesjr]

Circling back to your post. I Live in Chico, CA, and would indeed like to know of a competent tech. I've never played with an f valve, and eventually I'm sure I'll need to have some maintenance done. Thank you for the offer. Charlie

If you keep it well oiled you I wouldn't think you would need much valve maintenance. I didn't know that when I bought mine and forums like this didn't exist back then.

Thank you! I didn't know that either!

[cboalesjr]

Circling back to your post. I Live in Chico, CA, and would indeed like to know of a competent tech. I've never played with an f valve, and eventually I'm sure I'll need to have some maintenance done. Thank you for the offer. Charlie

If it is a standard rotor… just feed it some oil occasionally. Don’t switch oils too often so they mix in the valve. Don’t take it apart unless you know what you are doing.

Of the many horns and valves I have, the standard rotor requires the least maintenance. By that, I mean almost none. Haven’t done anything other than a drop or two of oil on the spindle and bearing in the last decade. (It’s also from 1953). Works great.

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks, Andy! Grateful to learn it's not high maintenance. Charlie

[cboalesjr]

Circling back to your post. I Live in Chico, CA, and would indeed like to know of a competent tech. I've never played with an f valve, and eventually I'm sure I'll need to have some maintenance done. Thank you for the offer. Charlie

Charlie,

As already noted, it's not like you'll need a tech to keep your F-attachment trombone playing. My only reasons to visit my tech are:
† Trauma. Had some sort of accident that requires repair. (Has happened to me only twice in decades of playing.)
† Purchased a used trombone that is in worse condition than represented by seller. Usually requires cleaning or alignment of slide. Sometimes rotor needs minor adjustment.

Standard rotors are very robust. Once they're aligned, all they need is a few drops of oil at regular intervals.
I use three different oils (I like Hetman) for the 3 areas of the rotary valve that need lubrication:
• Valve oil (dripped down the bell receiver) for the valve body,
• Rotor oil (under the screw cap) for the spindle,
• Bearing & Linkage oil for the externals.
I think all three are essential to best performance and long maintenance-free life.

You will of course want to also meticulously maintain your slide. This means
† Treating the slide very delicately.
† Using a good slide lubricant, such as Yamaha, Slide-O-Mix, or Ultra-Pure - and only a distilled water spray to refresh.
† Regular slide hygiene. My protocol:
... • A soft cloth to wipe off any lubricant from the outside of the inner slide;
... • An HWP Brass-Saver (soft brush with a long plastic lead ribbon) pulled through both inner and outer slides to remove debris, old lubricant, and moisture;
... • Strips of cotton bedsheet wrapped around a cleaning rod, or a Slide-O-Mix terry "towel sheath" (red sheath for medium-bore; blue sheath for large-bore slides) slipped over a cleaning rod to carefully and thoroughly dry the inside of the outer slide.

All of this prophylaxis will largely eliminate the need to visit a tech.
You may not find a great tech in Chico (though there could be one at a good music store).
You may have to drive to Sacramento. If you want to to drive even further, a highly recommended tech is Shawn at Wind & Brass on Solano Avenue in Berkeley.

Enjoy your trombone!

Thank you so much! Most of the above I did not know. I am grateful, and I will keep the Berkeley contact. Relieved to know how I can keep my Bach in good shape, but a drive to Berkeley would be no problem should the need arise. Thanks again for sharing your expertise; best wishes to you. Charlie

[cboalesjr]

Standard rotors are very robust. Once they're aligned, all they need is a few drops of oil at regular intervals.
I use three different oils (I like Hetman) for the 3 areas of the rotary valve that need lubrication:
• Valve oil (dripped down the bell receiver) for the valve body,
• Rotor oil (under the screw cap) for the spindle,
• Bearing & Linkage oil for the externals.
I think all three are essential to best performance and long maintenance-free life.

Agree but sooner or later the bumpers will probably wear down and need replacement.

Thank you for the reminder! Charlie

[Theodoresmi4129]

Im selling a 36 right now. Im not sure if its the 36b or the 36. I think its the close wrap.

[BGuttman]

Im selling a 36 right now. Im not sure if its the 36b or the 36. I think its the close wrap.

36: Straight horn (no attachment)
36G: Straight horn (no attachment) with gold brass bell
36B: F-attachment with rotor (conventional wrap)
36K: F-attachment with K valve and open wrap
36BO: F-attachment with open wrap and rotor

G can be added to 36B, 36K, and 36BO if the bell is gold brass.
LT indicates a light weight (nickel) slide with no oversleeves.

Note that the bell will be labeled either 36 or 36G; whether there is an attachment or not.

Hope this helps.

[cboalesjr]

Thanks to both of you. I knew most of the designations, but not all. And I now understand why my slide is so light. Take care. Charlie

[cboalesjr]

Im selling a 36 right now. Im not sure if its the 36b or the 36. I think its the close wrap.

Wish I had the bucks to buy it as well... good luck!

[Trav1s]

36 - straight horn
B - closed wrap f attachment
BO - open wrap f attachment
G = gold bell
LT = lightweight slide
C = convertible

[cboalesjr]

36 - straight horn
B - closed wrap f attachment
BO - open wrap f attachment
G = gold bell
LT = lightweight slide
C = convertible

Thanks, Travis!

[cboalesjr]

36 - straight horn
B - closed wrap f attachment
BO - open wrap f attachment
G = gold bell
LT = lightweight slide
C = convertible

Thanks again (not sure earlier reply actually made it to you...). Charlie

[brassduoDJ]

I am dealing with the very same dilemma - and am leaning strongly towards a 36 BO. I could also buy a Shires or New Vintage Conn or Getzen 3047. For some reason it just does not make sense to work harder than I really need to. I am performing the David in a few months and have experimented with several trombones including a Bach model 50 single rotor bass. The .547 bore is workable but I want it to be effortless and be able to nail the hard stuff at the end of the concertino strong. Planning on using a 4C small shank mpc. Any thoughts on a great larger diameter mpc for the 36?