Single Trigger Bass Trombones

[Bringthebassin]

So I feel like this has been touched upon in other threads but never discussed outright. What are the good single trigger bass trombone models? I know they are sort of out of favor right now, but they seem like a good idea to me if the music doesn't call for a lot of "double trigger" passages. I'm curious of everyone's thoughts about the idea of a single trigger bass bone as well. Do you like it? Do you hate it? Something more nuanced?

[GabrielRice]

I like playing a single valve bass. I have a single rotor section for my Shires, which I sometimes use in place of the double. I also have a Conn 70H single and a Bach 50 with a single Rotax valve.

I don't recommend a single as anybody's only bass trombone, but if you can afford to have one in the stable I think it's worth it.

[walldaja]

I've got a Yamaha 421G that is useful.

[hyperbolica]

I've recently been playing a Holton tr159 when I have a choice for bass parts. Most people probably wouldn't call it a bass, but I use it to play bass parts. I can almost get an in-tune low C on it, which is good enough for me. If a chart spends a lot of time on B and C I'll pull out the big horn, but the 159 is convincing enough for me. Air support improves, weight improves, upper range improves. Sound is more trombone-like. I use it with a Ferguson V mouthpiece, which is another "probably too small for modern bass tastes" piece of kit. I'm adding a plug in valve to it so I may not need the Kanstul double bass any more.

The tr159 has a couple of shortcomings. The valve seems small, but if you close your eyes and just listen to the sound, it's not bad. Also, it has a 547 top slide, the bell is only 9", and doesn't have a giant throat. And it's a little front heavy.

In general, I'm conflicted about single basses for the same reasons everyone else is, but I play bass parts on single valve instruments every chance I get. I owned a 70h, and put an Eb extension on the valve. I owned a couple 72hs and sold them. I owned an Olds s20, and converted it to a double. And I've got a plug in for my near-bass tr159. So I'm optimistic about singles, but I get disillusioned every time.

[Macbone1]

If I had to choose over again (and I wish I could - I'm stuck with my Besson Sovereign) I'd track down an Olds single valve bass, first choice. George Roberts models preferred, but even the predecessors to those are good horns.
Another often overlooked choice could be a German-made instrument. Germans use larger-throated bells than US makers so the lows really pop while preserving a sweet high range. Great craftsmanship as well. Maybe a little dark-toned depending on how you play and of course mouthpiece choice.

[Digidog]

I've got a Yamaha 421G that is useful.

I have a 421 too.

For long time a borrowed a 321, until I bought a used 421 which I played for many years in all circumstances - I learned to fake a pretty good B. The only issue with the 421, is that I have never liked the valve. Now that I have a double valved bass horn, I will see whether it's useful to change valve on it. Does anyone have any suggestions? I like the Lindberg valves on my Conn. Hagmann? Caidex?

[BGuttman]

Conn 72H (TIB) or 70H (TIS)

Bach 50B

Holton TR 183 or 185

Yamaha YBL 321 or 421

The old Olds or Reynolds singles are quite nice (Note: at one point both were made by the same people).

Some people consider the King 5B, Bach 45, and Conn 89 to be basses (they are "tweeners")

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Holton 169 if you can find one.

[tbonesullivan]

I've been on the hunt for a nice single valve for a while. The good ones get snapped up really quick. I had a chance for a Kanstul 1580 once, but passed. MISTAKE.

[spencercarran]

I first learned on a Yamaha 321, and I know other people have enjoyed that model as well.

Tom Rice has a nice looking Holton 185 over in the classifieds right now.

[hornbuilder]

I've been doing pretty much all my playing for the last few years on single valve horns. Even pieces that have low B's!!

[tbonesullivan]

I've been doing pretty much all my playing for the last few years on single valve horns. Even pieces that have low B's!!

NICE! doing an E pull, or are you using a false tone? I think on my trombones it's usually around T3.

[bigbandbone]

Here’s my 72H on the job. Best bass bone I’ve ever played. I do not find pulling to E to be a problem. I have yet to be presented with a piece of music that I cannot play on a single valve horn. Your mileage may vary. In all honesty I do not play professionally to earn a living. And, I mostly play big band and high end community band.

[hornbuilder]

Both of the singles pictured have a full E pull.

[RustBeltBass]

I own a Kanstul George Roberts model, that I really love. Used it a bit for Jazz, of course. But warm and round enough for limited use with piano accompaniment, Schubert and Brahms Songs work quite nicely on it.

[sf105]

I play a single whenever I can. For a lot of material it's just fine. They're lighter and often more free-blowing.

In the UK, Conn 60H's are very sought after and there's a tradition of using Holton 169/185s. I'm also increasingly drawn back to my 70H.

One horn I'd like to try is the King 2B Bass. It's a small duo-bore bass from the days of the big-bands. I'm kicking myself that I missed 2 (!) a year or so ago.

[Posaunus]

I had a nice Yamaha YBL-421G. Very competent trombone, easy to play. No E-pull.
Otherwise just fine - great slide, good valve.
Then I stumbled on an Elkhart Conn 71H (thanks Steve) that I really like (I'm a Conn kind of guy).
Needs a Remington shank mouthpiece, which I now have. Can stretch to a low C (or B with the E-pull).
Since I'm not a full-time bass trombonist (and have never learned to play two valves), I'm quite happy with this option, used in big band or orchestra settings.

[Thrawn22]

I prefer single to double honestly. I've used (and prefer) any of the Conn 7XH series basses. I use my 60H bell more than my 62H bell.

I had an Olds S20(?) Single that was awesome. I've played the Yeo Yamaha and liked the single valve option compared to having both valves.

[RustBeltBass]

Micha Davis of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra sounds fantastic on his single valve Bach 50 that he played every time I saw this orchestra. The vast majority of the repertoire allows to get buy with a single valve just fine.

I’d second that if one can only afford to own one bass trombone, it definitely needs to be a double bass though.

[imsevimse]

So I feel like this has been touched upon in other threads but never discussed outright. What are the good single trigger bass trombone models?

There are many old good single valve basses. Any trombone can be used for anything with the right player, but I include also the context below where i would choose them. Of course your opinion varies, but this is what I think my singles are best suited for, based on the sound and their playing characteristics.

My single-list
- Conn 70h, 71h and 72h (big band and classical)
- Holton 169 and 183 (big band and classical)
- Bach 45B and 50B (classical)
- Holton 185 (classical)
- Olds P22 (big band)
- Yamaha 321 and 322 (big band)

I'm curious of everyone's thoughts about the idea of a single trigger bass bone as well. Do you like it? Do you hate it? Something more nuanced?

Yes, I think they should be used whenever possible. I only use a double in situations when I don't know what music to expect and when I already know there will be lots of long C's and B's. I play bass in two big bands and in one where music is easier, lots of Basie and older stuff, I always bring a single and in the other, lots of contemporary bigband charts, I always bring a double. On the singles I use factitious notes for the low C's and the low B's. I pull the valve for C, if that note is a very exposed long note. I have never managed to pull the attachment enough to make an intune B. I would need a longer slide and a very long stretched and fast arm to make it in tune. Maybe possible with an extension to hit the far end of the slide would do it? I have recently bought such an extender so I will try it now when bands starts rehearsing again. Up until now I have always faked the B's on the singles.

/Tom

[bassclef]

A couple years ago, I was lucky enough to pick up a Yamaha YBL-621 in great condition. I think it's the only professional single valve bass that Yamaha ever made. It has the same wrap as the 321, so there's an E-pull.

The only reason I bought it was because it has the same slide as my 613 which had been my daily driver since 1996 and was just about clapped out. Flaky stocking plating common to the era and I had just about worn through the bottom tube where I hold it.

Anyway, I don't have a lot of jobs where a single valve is the correct choice, but I get excited when I do because it plays and sounds GREAT. I'm always looking out for another one because I want to put a dependent valve section on it.

The college I went to had an Elkhart 72H which I'd sign out occasionally because, even though I didn't have a mouthpiece which fit properly in the receiver, it was still a joy to play somehow. I loved using it for wind ensemble stuff where I could get away with one valve.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Williams Model 10 as well.

[DougHulme]

bass clef...

A couple years ago, I was lucky enough to pick up a Yamaha YBL-621 in great condition. I think it's the only professional single valve bass that Yamaha ever made. It has the same wrap as the 321, so there's an E-pull.

When Yamaha first made the 321 it was the only bass they made, it was the professional model - thats why they play so well... Doug

[Johnstad]

I use a shires double trubore setup. Recently, I was fortunate to pickup a single valve trubore valve section. I really like that valve. I’ve used it on several gigs already where I didn’t need both valves.

If you have a modular instrument, this is a great way to go. I also have a straight gooseneck. As I pull a valve off, the clarity is definitely noticeable.

Hope this helps.

[bwilliams]

I play both single and double.
The part can determine which one is best.
Another option: Conn 110H.

[SwissTbone]

If single valve basses are out of favor then I'm probably old fashioned

I play a single Hagmann custom whenever I can.

Good vintage single valves are obviously Conn 60h, 70h or a Holton tr169.

[marccromme]

I like very much my YBL-321 and my Conn 110H. The Yammie play s a bit warmer, the Conn has a nice sparcle to the tonal color, both play great. What a joy ...

When I neded 2 valves I go with my Conn 112H with aftermarket Hagmans, or my Elkhard Holton-Bach hybrid with Thayers.

[hyperbolica]

I got a 1961 King 1480 that can pass for a bass in the right situations. Best low D I've ever played. The slide is short, so it will never get a real low C. The balance and valve ergonomics are very questionable. 9" bell and 536/546 dual bore slide, but the big bell throat gives it the bass response.

The 1480 has been discussed a lot in various threads. The model has changed a lot over the years morphing into the modern 5b, and some years work as small basses or tweeners, and some are really just big tenors. If you're in the market, you have to do your research.

Its also very mouthpiece dependent. King 29 makes it play like a tenor, and a 1.5g-1.25g will make it roar.

[Pezza]

My King 5B is definitely a bass, doesn't work as a tenor for me!

[Finetales]

At one time I owned single valve and (modified) double independent 1960s Conn 72Hs at the same time.

There WAS a difference in sound out in the hall according to the trombonist friends in the audience, but they were both clearly that classic 70-series sound. The single was a bit lighter and punchier, while the double was broader and a bit more modern-sounding. But only a bit, and I quickly realized that while using the single to play old big band rep on it was fun and sounded so good, the double was only like 3% off from that so there was absolutely no point in keeping the single and letting it take up space.

People buy 70-series to use on lighter rep, and many think it's because of the single valve. But it's really just because the 70-series has a much smaller bell throat than their Edwards cannons. Just get a double 72H made, you still get the lighter sound without having to deal with only having one valve!

Anyway, I sold the single 72H pretty quickly and have not missed it.

That said, If I was a full-time orchestra player I would probably have both single valve and valveless versions of my main bass trombone, just for weight's sake.

I do currently own a King 1480 (which IS a bass trombone), as it has an even leaner sound than the 72H. But I don't like that it's a single!

[jonathanharker]

I used to have a Bach 50K which got stolen, it was a great sounding horn. By the time it turned up (NZ is a small place) I had ordered my Shires with dependent Greenhoe valves with the insurance payout. I got dependents because it's closer to the single valve setup.

[CuriousKen]

Elkhart Conn 72H is a terrific horn. I've had several and very much regret letting them go. They are a thing of beauty, great horns.

[Matt K]

My King 5B is definitely a bass, doesn't work as a tenor for me!

But theres really nothing about a 5B that is bass sized. The slide bore, valve, tuning slide, and bell are all tenor sized. The only thing that is kind of bassish about it is the extra .5” bell (9” vs 8.5”), but there are no contemporary “stock” basses that I’m aware of that have a 9” bell (they can be custom ordered of course). It’s fine if it works as a bass for you but there are certainly better tenors that would fit the bill as a bass. Iirc doesn’t the 5B have a 547 rotor too? That makes most tenors larger than the 5B

[Savio]

Some think the double trigger is a bigger bass trombone than a single trigger? I think it's opposite. Same bore size, same bell size. I think it's first time I use a scientific approach. It's like when we in the old day's put on some big lights and a "wonderbaum" to our cars to impress the girls. But in the end the car was the same and we end up with a wounderbaum that didn't smell parfume anymore.

I agree with all above. Yamaha has some very good single triggers. And old Conn's, Holton's. King's? Bach?

Anyway, we need a double trigger of course! It's a must have for any who try to learn the bass trombone.

Leif

[Matt K]

I think there's a slight misunderstanding about what people are claiming here. Pezza was indicating they liked the 5B as a bass, not that single valve basses are inherently smaller than double valvle basses.

Hyperbolica indicated that the throat on the 5B is larger than other tenors but it hasn't been on the ones that I've seen. I admittedly do not have a measurement, but I happened to have an 88HK and a King 5B bell at various points in time and neither of them were even close to being large enough to fit in a Shires or Edwards tuning slide receiver. My recollection is that when I measured, the throat was more comparable to that of a Shires, and my Edwards/Getzen tenor bell was noticeably larger.

Again, anecdotal b/c I do not have the figures in front of me. I also do not own those bells anymore so for th esake of posterity it might be good if someone did to take that measurement here so it's wrtiten down.

I do have a Holton 9" bell mounted on my Shires now and it is superb. It's easily my favorite bell to play on all my trombones, with the single or the double valve section I have. I bought a single valve Shires section off Gabe earlier this year that is a perfect match for it. Believe it's .593. Plays great with either the 547/562 or the 562/578 slides I have. Supremely easy to play. This is the horn I was wanting to build with the 88HK and 5B bells I mentioned earlier but no tech was willing (likely b/c it was not possible) to expand the throat to be sufficiently large to fit with the bass tuning slide I had.

[Pezza]

I've played many bass bones. Single, dependant and independent. Bach, Conn, Holton, Yamaha, Boosey/Besson, King etc.
I got the 5B while recovering from a car accident. It is physically lighter than most other single trigger basses. Even lighter than my Bach 36K!
On specs alone the King 5B is a large tenor. Playing mine it is definitely a bass for me. My Conn 73 was better on tenor!
The 5B & Boosey Imperial 555 are small compared to other basses. Most others singles are the same as their double counterparts. The only real advantage is the weight & can be freer blowing with only going thru 1 valve, tho this is reduced with modern valves!

[Burgerbob]

Spent the last couple days with my King 1485 and 50BG, the advantage of a vacation!

I have serious time on a 50B as my only bass in the past, so I remember the single life, as it were.

The single life kinda sucks. Both of these horns are really cool in their own way, and I've enjoyed playing them and improving, but boy howdy are they limiting in so many ways.

1. low register openness
Nope. Not compared to any modern horn. I don't... hate the blow through either horn, but they don't make for a consistent time in and out of the low range.

2. better open horn
Not on either of these. I like the sounds I can make, but they are not more efficient or easier in the midrange or high range than any of my double basses.

3. lighter/better ergonomics
Definitely not. Both horns require counterweights as to not be front-heavy, so they are barely lighter than a good double. The 1485 (which is obsolete, I won't fight anyone on that point) is especially uncomfortable to use, but even the 50BG is subpar with the underslung lever and long throw. There's also something to having to use long slide motions- you only two options for C3, 6 positions apart, and all the stuff on the 2nd partial is one choice only.

Primarily, I was playing fundamentals and music- Cimera 55 Studies in tenor clef down an octave. Both horns could be fun and make some great sounds, but I can also tell that any one of my "real" basses would have made my life much, much easier. And in the end... that's why I would use something.

I'm seriously thinking about chopping both horns up, creating another double with valve set parts I've had sitting around forever. Better than two singles.

[imsevimse]

Spent the last couple days with my King 1485 and 50BG, the advantage of a vacation!

I have serious time on a 50B as my only bass in the past, so I remember the single life, as it were.

The single life kinda sucks. Both of these horns are really cool in their own way, and I've enjoyed playing them and improving, but boy howdy are they limiting in so many ways.

1. low register openness
Nope. Not compared to any modern horn. I don't... hate the blow through either horn, but they don't make for a consistent time in and out of the low range.

2. better open horn
Not on either of these. I like the sounds I can make, but they are not more efficient or easier in the midrange or high range than any of my double basses.

3. lighter/better ergonomics
Definitely not. Both horns require counterweights as to not be front-heavy, so they are barely lighter than a good double. The 1485 (which is obsolete, I won't fight anyone on that point) is especially uncomfortable to use, but even the 50BG is subpar with the underslung lever and long throw. There's also something to having to use long slide motions- you only two options for C3, 6 positions apart, and all the stuff on the 2nd partial is one choice only.

Primarily, I was playing fundamentals and music- Cimera 55 Studies in tenor clef down an octave. Both horns could be fun and make some great sounds, but I can also tell that any one of my "real" basses would have made my life much, much easier. And in the end... that's why I would use something.

I'm seriously thinking about chopping both horns up, creating another double with valve set parts I've had sitting around forever. Better than two singles.

Interesting. I like to compare my doubles to my singles too. For me the ergonomics is the big difference. I need a letherstrap, get-a-grip or other handsupport to hold the doubles nowdays and even if I have that they are still heavy for me. I often think I need a double but after I play the same thing on both a single and a double the differences in result isn't that big. Where I find the double has an advantage is when I have to play a loud sustained C or B. I might be able to hold such a note a bit longer on the double compared to if I play a factitious note on a single and to remain control on a full four beat note especially in the end, with diminuendo is easier on a double compared to if I do a factitious note on the single.

I'm now trying to learn how to circular breathe in the trigger register on bass. I admit I'm not very good. I work at it. My experience is it is easier to circular breath on a trigger low C on the double compared to a factitious note low C on the single. Then we have the option to pull the f-tuningslide so we can play that C without the use of factitious notes? Then we need to remember we pulled on all the other trigger notes we use too. That can be a headache. We have more options with two valves especially if they are independant. It might be an advantage but I have not yet run into any part that needs an independant. I have three independant basses to compare and play and I have experienced that a G valve is a real advantage on a tenor in the staff so of course it is on bass too but if you have the second valve on a bass in G then the bass is tuned Bb/F/G/Eb. Maybe that would be my reason to play independant.

For me the difference single versus double is in the pros and negs about ergonomics (heavy double) and the obvious need of solving some factitious notes that can be very difficult in one part but may not be difficult at all in another part. It just depends.

It reminds me I need to go and try new double valve basses. If they now are less heavy compared to the old ones I own then the ergonomics problem might not be an issue anymore. Then there might be a huge financial problem if I find out I want a NEW double valved basstrombone.

/Tom

[hyperbolica]

I'm an admitted minimalist. I'll play on the smallest horn that will do the job. A youth of bicycling and backpacking pushed me in that direction. You'd think I'm pro-single, but I'm not. A big tenor can do every thing a single bass can do.

However, I'm probably more interested in a double valve tenor than a real full-on bass. I've got 3 full basses and a 1480. I agree somewhat with Aiden that the 1480 is very hard to hold, and that a makeover would benefit it. I'm thinking of a tuning slide plug-in valve.

For what I do, the full bore big bass is probably a bit much. Nice velvety sound, but too much bazooka when a shotgun would do. A double valve 1480 with an improved grip might be ideal.

[Matt K]

I loved my dependent tenor. If I had the funds I would still have one (or more…). The option of having an F/D or F/Eb is fully chromatic. The latter is a touch lighter and the former is a touch easier to play.

For full on bass parts, I found it lacking (contemporary bait band, low end of a trombone choir, sub for tuba on… anything). But fully agree that large tenor would suffice for a lot of things that people use a bass for now, and that is more true with it being fully chromatic.

[Savio]

I have 3 single valves conn bass trombones, 3 double valve. 2 chinese I got free (horrible but good case). Have to admit I'm no good at changing between them. Need some time to adapt to each instrument The single valves are old so trigger register seems stuffy at first. But after one our that register feels much more open and "normal" And the conn's speak very fast. Some can switch easily between instrument but I need time. So my advice is not to quickly dismiss any instrument. Give it some "alone" time. Even these Chinese instrument didn't feel that bad after some ours.

Leif

[gbedinger]

Thanks Lief, your observations are always spot on. I try to do my best with “trying stuff on” in the store but the only way for me really is to get to know a different trombone is to own it for weeks/months to really decide about it. I currently own only a 50b for a bass trombone, even though I had a Yamaha 822 with the conversion capability from one to two valves. As it turned out, that wasn’t the point; even going from two-to-one or vice-versa was never anything I wanted to do on a whim. Every trombone I’ve had has had its own charms (and thorns). While part of my efforts were to actually play a number of these higher-end vintage trombones in a real environment, it seems as if I am still going through trombones, though at times, my pocketbook protests. At least these trombones are not generally “depreciating assets” and don’t need that much in maintenance (as, say, for an automobile). All this to say that I’ll probably be getting a double valve to accompany the single valve 50b I have. Who knows? It’s an adventure!

[imsevimse]

I have 3 single valves conn bass trombones, 3 double valve. 2 chinese I got free....

Leif

Hi, Leif! How come you got them for free? I have one Chinese made independant Thomann bass. I bought that horn at Thomann. It is a okay horn, not a favorite. Not the sound I want in a big band and it is only there I play bass. It might be better for classical.

/Tom