Fourth (tenor?) trombone in big band

[spencercarran]

Lately I've been playing fourth book in a typical big band trombone section (three small tenors and a big old bass). This is all well and good when the music is written for three tenors and a bass, but there's a few charts where the orchestration is very clearly meant to be played on all tenors. How do people approach such charts, short of bringing two horns to the gig? The sound of any bass, even with a smaller mouthpiece, is going to be noticeably different from the rest of the section, which strikes as problematic when the music as written seems to be calling for a unified section sound.

[BGuttman]

At the level of the bands I play in it machts nicht which horn I use for bass. We are different enough that even matching tenors won't make a difference.

One compromise is to use a smallish bass like a King 5B for all the parts; especially if the bass parts don't go down too low (i.e. not too many C2s and B1s).

If I were at a top level and doing recordings I might go the two horn route; possibly using a King 3B-F for the 4th part when it appears that 4 small tenors are called for.

[imsevimse]

Lately I've been playing fourth book in a typical big band trombone section (three small tenors and a big old bass). This is all well and good when the music is written for three tenors and a bass, but there's a few charts where the orchestration is very clearly meant to be played on all tenors. How do people approach such charts, short of bringing two horns to the gig? The sound of any bass, even with a smaller mouthpiece, is going to be noticeably different from the rest of the section, which strikes as problematic when the music as written seems to be calling for a unified section sound.

I know exactly the feeling. First my choice of a bass sound is a light one so a modern large belled bass trombone with double thayers with a huge sound is not what I use to play in a big band setting, acctually I have not many basses that prevails that type of sound.

I prefer the good vintage basses like the Conn 70h, 71h, 73h, 62h or the King "Duo Gravis", the Olds P21, P22 or the Holton 169 or 183, the Yamaha 321 or 322. Those are great and easier to blend than the Holton 180, 185, the Benge 290, the Yamaha 612R or the cheap Chinese dependent bass I've bought. Some of those lean more towards classical sound, but might still be considered to light of today's fashion. So first, use a bass that makes it easier to blend. I know some might not agree and say they can tune their bass sound to anything. Yes they probably can do that if they are very skilled. It is of course individual, and what I wrote is just my experience. The best commercial bass I own however is the dependent version of the Kanstul 1662. Slide is great and very easy blow.

Then I see too I bring one of the most suited basses above, along with at least two different mouthpieces (sometimes three) , one larger and one smaller let say a Bach 2G and a Bach 1 1/4 or a Bach 1 1/4 and a Bach 1, a third mouthpiece is often a Bach 1 1/2.

When those charts you speak of come up I use the smallest mouthpiece and then I scale down my sound and try to sound as much as I can a tenor. Being a tenor player first it is not that difficult to shrink my sound. I also back off when the whole section play in unison in the upper register and try to adjust my sound to be the same as the smaller trombones. If the unison part is very high I might even skip the phrase entirely, noone will notice. The sound on high Bb, B and C, even with the smallest mouthpiece might be too dominant, it depends on context. In the rare occation I take a rest, and I think the tenors appreciate this, I know I would if I was on first.

/Tom

[JasonDonnelly]

You make it work. I think plenty of "modern" bass trombones and mouthpieces are perfectly capable of blending with the right approach. A dual-bore Edwards with a 0G is definitely not going to make it easy, though. At least in my experience, blend within a jazz bone section has less to do with just tone and more to do with matching articulations, note lengths/shapes, etc. I've never felt at a disadvantage on my current "modern" horn and "modern" (ie. bigger than a Bach 1 1/2G) mp. Maybe if I spent a bunch of time on a vintage Conn I would feel different. Who knows.

There was one instance where I swapped to a tenor on 4th part mid-concert. That was for a modern publication of the Ellington Nutcracker Suite, where a 4th part was added by an arranger...it alternated pretty frequently between being voiced above and below the 3rd part, so a bass felt super out of place.

[AndrewMeronek]

a unified section sound.

In my experience, this has to do more with everyone's ability to listen, react, and vibe with each other much, much more than equipment. Play the parts on the horn that it's easiest on. If that means having 2 trombone stands, go for it.

[Burgerbob]

Yup, I just play my normal commercial bass (yamaha 613), but think smaller, lighter, less volume, clear front to the note.

[Matt K]

a unified section sound.

In my experience, this has to do more with everyone's ability to listen, react, and vibe with each other much, much more than equipment. Play the parts on the horn that it's easiest on. If that means having 2 trombone stands, go for it.

This is my approach too. I just heard the capitol bones a few weeks ago which has probably the biggest divergence in equipment from lead to bass in just about any section with Matt playing his… .458 bore(I think) and something like a 15E through Jeff playing dual bore bass with inline thayers on a CB118/M/M10 or something similarly bathtub sized. Sound was unbelievable!

Anyway, If I were doing that, I’d personally sound much, much better on my own equipment and bring two horns. Probably my usual bass for bass and switch to a medium bore tenor for the “4th tenor” parts.

[Cotboneman]

You make it work. I think plenty of "modern" bass trombones and mouthpieces are perfectly capable of blending with the right approach. A dual-bore Edwards with a 0G is definitely not going to make it easy, though. At least in my experience, blend within a jazz bone section has less to do with just tone and more to do with matching articulations, note lengths/shapes, etc. I've never felt at a disadvantage on my current "modern" horn and "modern" (ie. bigger than a Bach 1 1/2G) mp. Maybe if I spent a bunch of time on a vintage Conn I would feel different. Who knows.

There was one instance where I swapped to a tenor on 4th part mid-concert. That was for a modern publication of the Ellington Nutcracker Suite, where a 4th part was added by an arranger...it alternated pretty frequently between being voiced above and below the 3rd part, so a bass felt super out of place.

This is a good point. As trombone players we are naturally concerned with gear, including having multiple horns, and mouthpieces. I don't know any of my trombone friends who have less than three horns. Most have five or six. But the most important gear is something we can't buy at our favorite music dealers - our ears. The bottom line is that we all have to listen within a section for style, attacks, releases, phrasing, dynamics, note shapes, blend, balance, intonation and a host of other things within and across the section and the ensemble. There are different gear expectations for playing in commercial settings and pro performances, but for the rest of us, I don't think it really matters that much what horn we bring to play 4th bone in the community jazz or concert band, as long as we bring our ears along too.

[Pezza]

I wouldn't change horns mid concert, but I might swap mouthpieces!
Unless it was a switch to a eupho part.

[JohnL]

I've run into this question in every big band I've played with. The book is a mixed bag of literally dozens of arrangers, each one with his or her own idea of how to write trombone parts. Two tenors. Three tenors. Two tenors plus bass. Four tenors. Three tenors plus bass. Four tenors plus bass. Three tenors plus two basses. For me, it's seldom a question of whether to bring a second horn, as space is at a premium at most venues - and you can't base your choice of instrument on the set list, because that's going to change as the boss "reads the room".

You take the big horn because you know you can at least play whatever's thrown at you and do the best you can in those situations where a tenor would be more suitable.