Willson 2704

[Kevbach33]

In my search for a used euphonium for less than $3k that is not a Yamaha 321 (not a fan of small shank euphoniums), I came across a Willson model 2704 (4-valve inline non-comp) at the Tuba Exchange. I've seen exactly one of these in person (another player had one in the Lake Stevens band that has not returned since 2 summers ago) and still don't really know much about them. This one is in better shape, it seems, than the other was, having decent if not good lacquer.

For those that have seen these and played on them, what are your thoughts? Is ~$2500 reasonable for these from a store? (It could be more since I'm on the other side of the country from Tuba Exchange, so shipping may have to be factored in...) Intonation, sound (how close can a non-comp euphonium sound get to the 2900?), mouthpiece preferences (comes with, but doesn't specify which, mouthpiece)? And knowing Willson, I assume this is a medium shank model.

All thoughts appreciated. The above band seems to have a hard time keeping euphonium players, so maximizing my flexibility with this group is important.

[Finetales]

I have no experience with the 2704 specifically, but every large-shank Willson euph I've played has been fantastic. The medium shank ones felt noticeably restricted by comparison. I would assume the 2704 is the same.

It's worth mentioning that for $2500 you could easily get a used vintage Besson compensator, and a nice one at that (used ones usually start at around $1500). I got my fabulous Sterling Virtuoso for just over $2k. I would never spend that much cash on a non-compensating euph.

If you do want non-compensating, the King 2280 has a large shank and is the most common alternative to the 321. But I would imagine the Willson 2704 is a better instrument than either.

[spencercarran]

There are people more knowledgeable about that specific model and its going market value over at Werden's forum: https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthrea ... king-price

I will say that with $2500 and a little bit of patience you should be able to get a solid used compensating euphonium. I have two very nice compensating euro-shank euphs (Besson/B&H) and neither of them cost that much.

[Matt K]

Not a direct answer but a common-ish solution to the 321 problem is to buy a 621 large shank lead pipe and have it attached to a 321

[Goten56]

I don't know much about the Wilson, but I play a King 2280 and it's the best horn in the world.

[hyperbolica]

I'd add a vote for the 2280. Great sound, available new and used. Flexible tuning options.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I own a Yamaha 321 with a 621 large shank receiver/leadpipe. I also own a King 2280. Both in perfect condition and both are the best examples of those models that I have ever played. I have tested hundreds of “normal” 321s and have played on two other 321s with the large shank/leadpipe modification. I have also played on dozens of the King 2280 models because they frequently come through the shop.

In my opinion, the Yammie with the modification is in a completely different league than the King. Even a good King 2280 can be stuffy, cumbersome and have assorted intonation problems. The modified Yammie is a remarkable horn. It has beautiful euphonium sound, is extremely nimble and the larger shank/leadpipe seems to eliminate many intonation problems that the standard small shank horns have. Sorry to contradict the other contributors, but that’s my honest take on that comparison.

I tried a couple of Willson 2704 horns at a show several years ago and I thought they were decent horns, but not as good as my modified Yamaha 321. I remember thinking that the Willson 2704 and the Besson 3+1 non-compensating euphoniums were very overpriced.

[Kdanielsen]

I own a Yamaha 321 with a 621 large shank receiver/leadpipe. I also own a King 2280. Both in perfect condition and both are the best examples of those models that I have ever played. I have tested hundreds of “normal” 321s and have played on two other 321s with the large shank/leadpipe modification. I have also played on dozens of the King 2280 models because they frequently come through the shop.

In my opinion, the Yammie with the modification is in a completely different league than the King. Even a good King 2280 can be stuffy, cumbersome and have assorted intonation problems. The modified Yammie is a remarkable horn. It has beautiful euphonium sound, is extremely nimble and the larger shank/leadpipe seems to eliminate many intonation problems that the standard small shank horns have. Sorry to contradict the other contributors, but that’s my honest take on that comparison.

I tried a couple of Willson 2704 horns at a show several years ago and I thought they were decent horns, but not as good as my modified Yamaha 321. I remember thinking that the Willson 2704 and the Besson 3+1 non-compensating euphoniums were very overpriced.

Did you get the entire leadpipe swapped or just the mouthpiece receiver? I’d really like to do this to a yamaha to replace my wessex euph (which has terrible intonation and is stuffy).

[Silverbee]

I'd add a vote for the 2280.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I own a Yamaha 321 with a 621 large shank receiver/leadpipe. I also own a King 2280. Both in perfect condition and both are the best examples of those models that I have ever played. I have tested hundreds of “normal” 321s and have played on two other 321s with the large shank/leadpipe modification. I have also played on dozens of the King 2280 models because they frequently come through the shop.

In my opinion, the Yammie with the modification is in a completely different league than the King. Even a good King 2280 can be stuffy, cumbersome and have assorted intonation problems. The modified Yammie is a remarkable horn. It has a beautiful euphonium sound, is extremely nimble and the larger shank/leadpipe seems to eliminate many intonation problems that the standard small shank horns have. Sorry to contradict the other contributors, but that’s my honest take on that comparison.

I tried a couple of Willson 2704 horns at a show several years ago and I thought they were decent horns, but not as good as my modified Yamaha 321. I remember thinking that the Willson 2704 and the Besson 3+1 non-compensating euphoniums were very overpriced.

Did you get the entire leadpipe swapped or just the mouthpiece receiver? I’d really like to do this to a yamaha to replace my wessex euph (which has terrible intonation and is stuffy).

The Yamaha mouthpiece receiver and leadpipe came as a package deal. The 621 leadpipe section is definitely larger than the 321 leadpipe. I believe Yamaha still sells all of its euphonium mouthpiece receivers/leadpipes as a combo that is soldered together. I replaced a 201 (3-valve model) receiver/leadpipe a few months ago and it was a combo.

Be careful if you try to replace parts from one brand to another. Every brand is slightly different in the downward slope of the leadpipe and the angle that it enters the 1st valve port. When I replace an “odd brand “ euphonium leadpipe, I usually buy a generic one (filled with pitch) and bend it to the custom shape. Then I use dent balls to get it to the proper size, roundness and taper. It takes a lot of time and patience.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I should note that I believe there is a reason that the King 2280 is somewhat stuffy. There are several valve ports in the pistons that are reduced considerably due to the pathway of adjacent ports. While this is common in piston instruments, the reduction on the 2280 is quite substantial. Additionally, there is a crazy 180 degree turn in the port tubing of the 1st piston when the valve is engaged. It goes in one hole, twists back and comes out of the hole directly beside it. Whenever, I play a valve combination on the 2280 that includes 1st valve I really feel the change in resistance.

I am not saying this to create friction. I know a couple of players that really like the King 2280. I feel that there are pros and cons to every instrument and a good conversation presents both sides. For me, there are other non-compensating 4-valve euphoniums that I consider to be better players. Notably the Willson 2704, the Besson BE165 and Yamaha 321 with the 621 leadpipe modification. The problem is that these models are harder to find, or they are more expensive.

[Matt K]

The 321 is a really easy instrument to play, I wonder if that's the reason I had a preference for the 321 over the 2280 I owned. I've intended to have a large shank put on several and never gotten around to it, maybe I should actually do that. Have you tried a small shank 321 with a larger shank like one of Doug's "5" tapers vs a standard large shank (such as one of his 8 or 9)?

[Kevbach33]

I appreciate the responses. I'm trying to keep an open mind with what's available so I'm trying to narrow down my choices between a few options, hence asking about this rare model.

Navigating Dwerden is kind of a chore, and I did find some results, but nothing seems conclusive.

I'd also like to avoid going Chinese if I can help it. Don't even ask.

Re: 321. A respectable, relatively inexpensive and readily available choice. I have played one or two, and maybe mouthpiece choice wasn't what i wanted, but I always thought these were pretty bland in sound. Does switching out the leadpipe for the one off the 621 really make that big of a difference? Also, I'd honestly rather get the 621 itself if it were readily available. I forget if the 321 had changed production over to China (I know it has Yamaha's strict quality control, but still...) or if only the 201 moved, while I'm sure the 621 is still made in Japan like the comps. If true, this means a 321 must be used and say "made in Japan." In any case I'll get a 321 as a last resort.

The Willson: certainly the wild card, and I'm still going to keep this option in my back pocket. The euphonium player in the Lynnwood group plays a 2900, and the 2704 looks to have the same bugle. This would have a different kind of euphonium sound to the Yamaha and King, perhaps darker as it will be a fairly heavy horn. I also understand that this will likely be the most expensive of these 3, assuming equivalent condition. Main detractors here are the medium shank and possibly getting parts for repair.

The King: This is my first choice. The 2280 is the model with the sound I have in my head thanks to me playing in an honor band in 2010. Large shank, larger bore than the Yamaha, multiple options with the fourth valve and manually compensating via the 3rd valve slide. This instrument in capable hands puts out a more electric sound than any euphonium I have heard or played (and I recently test played a Yamaha 842!). I still get tingles remembering that sound. The King's are often more expensive than the 321s and don't come up for sale as often, it seems.

And this is just for euphoniums. I was also a little bit curious about the two older Mirafone baritones at Dillon Music. Just a little. The 54 takes small shank (could be right for the size) and the 56 has a large shank (may be better for the graduated bore) and 5 valves (2 whole step 5th) like some tubas. These would be lighter still in tone, but intonation may be suspect? And "the bell points the wrong (right?) way." These are smaller bugles than the current 56A and the euphoniums.

I should say that I'm not in a rush. This is something that can take its time as I mull over the options.

[spencercarran]

The King: This is my first choice. The 2280 is the model with the sound I have in my head thanks to me playing in an honor band in 2010. Large shank, larger bore than the Yamaha, multiple options with the fourth valve and manually compensating via the 3rd valve slide. This instrument in capable hands puts out a more electric sound than any euphonium I have heard or played (and I recently test played a Yamaha 842!). I still get tingles remembering that sound. The King's are often more expensive than the 321s and don't come up for sale as often, it seems.

Well in that case: https://www.ebay.com/itm/155197767313

[BGuttman]

I should point out that the Conn 19I is identical to the King 2280, the only difference being the name on the bell. I bought a 19I (new) in preference to a (used) 2280.

[TonyTheBeast]

I actually have a Willson 2704L for sale it's not new but in great condition never really got around to play it since I play sousa at all my gigs. I'm located in Fresno California $2000 if anyone is interested. If you'd send me a number or email I can send a couple of pictures.

Updated made a listing on Craigslist with a few pictures hopefully the link is active

Euphomium Willson 2704L
https://fresno.craigslist.org/msg/d/par ... 29584.html