Mouthpiece (mostly rim) size philosophies and their applicability

[MStarke]

This topic comes up in almost every mouthpiece related threat - what's the best size to pick for which player, which situation or which instrument? Probably everyone agrees that there is no golden rule for everyone, especially when it comes to doubling.

Some general "philosophies" that typically come up - and certainly this is extremely over-simplifying and missing important aspects:
1 Use the smallest mouthpiece that is still adequate and work to make it sound and work great (example could be a 6 1/2 AL on large bore, I think I heard this idea related to Alain Trudel)
2 Use the largest mouthpiece that is still generally adequate and make sure you are playing very efficiently ("3G on large bore")
3 Use a middle of the road mouthpiece and stick to it because it works for you and many others ("5G on large bore")

More specifically on doubling some others come up:
4 Use (as far as possible) the same rim size on all/most instruments (up to use the exact same mouthpiece on everything)
5 Follow the same mouthpiece brand/style for all instruments (e.g. Denis Wick mouthpieces from bass to alto)
6 Be very specific and fit mouthpieces specifically to all instruments and their needs, not reflecting 4 or 5

Not that I would like to not go too much into further variation such as cup depths and shapes, bore/backbore size for now, but focus more on the general size determined by the rim which for most people seems to be the most sensitive topic.

I would like to get your opinions on these (and whatever you want to add), e.g.:
- What works and what works not so well (for you)? Why?
- What do you see work for most people?
- What are limitations of the different approaches?
- For whom/which needs do you think which approach works best?
- Do the different "philosophies" fit best to specific methods/approaches?

[MStarke]

I myseld have gone through a long journey of starting on very standard equipment. Started doubling and trying a lot of equipment. Trying more or less same rim sizes on bass and tenor didn't help me personally, gave up tenor almost completely at some point. On bass (and contra) I had a phase where I tended towards very large mouthpieces.

Today I am doubling on semi-professional level on bass, large/small tenor, alto and euphonium. I play rather typical mouthpiece sizes on all those instruments and it works wel for me. I think that's partly due to the fact that I do not have a real main instrument anymore (that might be dictating a preference for the others) and that I try to get at least two instruments (and mouthpieces) on my face every day. And - at least compared to 15 years ago - I developed a relatively simple and straightforward overall approach to using and maintaining my embouchure.

However I see that other people are doing it completely differently!

[Trombo]

One mouthpiece cannot be used on all types of trombone. Although the Doug Elliott system allows you to do this with different cups and shanks on the tenor. But the bass still requires a different mouthpiece.

Professionals tend to use a mouthpiece size that matches the type of trombone, although this is not as convenient as one rim on all mouthpieces. This advises for example Denis Wick.
Here's an interesting thread that illustrates this approach:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=5998#p60329

This approach was promoted by Sam Burtis on the old forum.

[MStarke]

One mouthpiece cannot be used on all types of trombone. Although the Doug Elliott system allows you to do this with different cups and shanks on the tenor. But the bass still requires a different mouthpiece.

I would generally agree, but still I actually know people who play or played either bass and tenor or tenor and alto on a 5g. The first is a very good amateur and the second is a pro with a police orchestra job. Still I don't think this is very convincing. On here I think I have read a few times of people trying to use the same mouthpiece e g on large and small tenor, but probably all on amateur level.

I/former pro/semi-pro personally play distinct and different mouthpieces on different types, but certainly there are quite a few people using same rims, e g across all tenors and alto. I would like to understand more why people decide on the way they choose to do it and what advantages/disadvantages they see.

[harrisonreed]

I don't want to make a huge post on a subject I post about all the time, so hope this is short and sweet. I use the same rim profile on bass/small/large/alto trombones. The high point diameter, the furthest point from the tip of the shank, so to speak, is exactly the same on all of them. The inner diameter will vary because the alpha angle gets shallower on shallower cups that I've designed. So the range is something like 1.054-1.06". Roughly the same as a 2G. This is near the lower limit of what works on bass because the alpha angle eventually turns into a 90 degree cliff, and the only way to get more cup volume without going wider is to make it deeper.

I couldn't use the same setup on all gigs -- cup shape, depth, and throat/backbore are where you make your money in mouthpiece design. A Nike Fly Free shoe isn't great because it comes in size 9, it's great because of everything crammed into that size 9. Nike can cram all that great stuff into size 5-14, too. People playing a true 5G on alto is akin to someone running a 100m sprint in size 9 combat boots. I don't get it. Get size 9 spikes for the track. Get a 5G width alto mouthpiece for your alto, if that's your size.

Rim width used to be such a new and exciting subject for me because it was mine blowing when I got into the Alessi and Doug Elliott designs. Now it's just like, well duh, in order for my face to shift and move for trombone I need the correct size mouthpiece diameter. People suffering through "making it work" are missing out.

Do you want to play trumpet on a trombone sized rim? No. I think this has as much to do with what that size rim imposes on the shape of the cup as it does the amount of tissue that vibrates inside of it. Same with tuba -- you simply can't get the correct cup shape and volume if you limit the diameter to 1.06".

[Matt K]

Did Remington advocate for doing everything on an 88 w/ his mouthpiece? From lead to bass? At least until you got a long-term gig and wanted to specialize. Seem to remember something vaguely similar to that.

I do most playing on a 1.04" rim. Bass I use a 1.14" rim but I have a 1.04" rim with a deep cup that works if I need to do a bass gig and I hvaen't had as much face time on the 1.14" rim.

[hyperbolica]

I'm a former pro/semipro. I used to have trouble switching to and from smaller mouthpieces. It would take several days to adjust between a 5g and a 6.5. Once I started using larger 104 rims, I can use any cup/shank combo or even larger rims for bass and tuba without any adjustment period. My chops just did not like smaller mouthpieces.

My playing on 5g size pieces (rim size ~100) was fine, but I did crack a lot of notes. Bigger rims helped solve that.

On bass bone I use 112 K 8, and on tuba I use 126 P16. For sub-500 bore horns, I use e 104 rim, C cup, 2 shank. All tenors including 547 use 104 rims up through G cup, 8 shank. On euphonium I use a 104 with a J cup. Honestly, I would probably prefer a 106 or 108 if I played euph exclusively, but I try not to mess with my tenor chops too much.

There is an adjustment between euph and tenor if I play a lot of euph, but I think it's behind the embouchure, in the oral cavity shape.

When Doug recommended this set up, at first I didn't believe it would work because I had tried all the Bach and Schilke sizes and the bigger pieces were just harder to drive and sounded mushy. I had never coupled the big rim with the correct size cup. One I got started, everything fell into place.

I can't say this approach works for everyone, but it works for me. Solved several playing issues at the same time.

[Trombo]

I'm a former pro/semipro. I used to have trouble switching to and from smaller mouthpieces. It would take several days to adjust between a 5g and a 6.5. Once I started using larger 104 rims, I can use any cup/shank combo or even larger rims for bass and tuba without any adjustment period. My chops just did not like smaller mouthpieces.

Do you have a deep overbite? I have noticed that overbite players like big mouthpieces

[hyperbolica]

Do you have a deep overbite? I have noticed that overbite players like big mouthpieces

No overbite.

[Trombo]

No overbite.

Are you an 80/20, 70/30, 60/40 or 50/50 player?
Doug Elliott wrote on an old forum that players with 80/20 and 70/30 mouthpiece placements prefer larger mouthpieces.

[Bach5G]

Underbite?

[Kbiggs]

Miles Anderson was also an advocate of #1. It worked for him. It might not work for you.

There are many different philosophies about mouthpieces and embouchure and the relation between the two. I also know how quickly I went down the rabbit hole too many years ago trying too many different things, only a few of which actually worked—for a time. After just a few lessons with Doug Elliott, which have helped tremendously, I started to feel like what he recommended (and similarly-sized mouthpieces) worked. Period. (For the past few months I’ve been unable to play, but that’s a different matter.)

The test of whether it works is (a) do you get a characteristic sound for the instrument (b) without using a bunch of embouchure gymnastics (excessive motion) to try to make it work. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using different mouthpieces on different horns so long as you keep the mechanics of your embouchure consistent. If you can do that with different mouthpieces that have different rims, great. If you can’t get a characteristic sound without using gymnastics, it’s probably time to re-think things. If you’re very tired after playing different horns and mouthpieces (given a reasonable amount of practice and acclimatization), it’s probably time to re-think things.

I’d suggest some time with Doug Elliott. There may be other people in your area who are knowledgeable, but Doug’s a sure bet.

[hyperbolica]

No overbite.

Are you an 80/20, 70/30, 60/40 or 50/50 player?
Doug Elliott wrote on an old forum that players with 80/20 and 70/30 mouthpiece placements prefer larger mouthpieces.

Maybe a slight underbite, never really considered it. My lower teeth do fit in right behind my upper teeth.

Probably 70/30, again I don't know for sure.

And I play slightly off center to the passenger side (my right).

Because I'm kind of susceptible to callouses, the trombone mouthpiece makes a bit of a ridge right below my nose. Interestingly, this ridge limits how big a tuba mouthpiece I can use, because it will run into my chin on the bottom. So I use a contrabass trombone mouthpiece (small for a tuba) with tubas.

[Burgerbob]

I use what works for me- 3 size rims (DE 104, Wick 3, GB 3G) with appropriate cups on euph, tenor, and bass trumpet, a medium size bass piece, and a normal size contra piece. I definitely couldn't do the same rim on everything, and I can't do the smaller rims long term on the small pieces.

[Trombo]

I noticed that playing on a small mouthpiece on a small bore tenor and alto (Bach MV 12C) noticeably improves my playing on large tenor (Bach 5G) and bass (Bach MV 2G). I'm thinking of even starting to play the trumpet. The example of James Morrison, Trombone Shorty, Tom Malone and others proves that alternating small and large mouthpieces improves trombone playing.

[ngrinder]

I play music for a living, mostly jazz and commercial, and mostly on small bore, though I play a lot of bass trombone, and I own probably around 200 mouthpieces...(it's a problem!) The following are my observations about my body/gear - they're not absolutes by any stretch, as many people play a huge variety of equipment and can sound great. We're all individuals with different anatomy, needs, and sounds in our heads that we need our gear to match up to.

I match my mouthpiece to my horn, and play the "largest" small piece I can manage. I love how a 5 (or even 4) sized rim feels while improvising, but I feel there are many drawbacks to a larger rim, at least in a commercial or jazz setting. Blend in a section, blend with trumpets, lead sound...all those things don't quite line up for me when the rim ID gets larger than around 25.4mm, not to mention endurance fatigues! It's all about having that sizzle easily accessible while still having a rim that's large enough so accuracy doesn't take a dive. I spent a long time trying to play 11Cs, because many of my idols in the scene did that. I took a "vacation" for two weeks and only brought the 11C so I could really become one with it, and while I learned a lot about how to play on an uncomfortable piece, I was still uncomfortable!

Right now I'm mostly playing on Alex Illes' new Schilke piece, or my trusted Mt Vernon 6.5A...they're the smallest pieces I can play without feeling totally boxed in. Other winners for me are Shires' 7C (honorable mention to the Shires 11C for matching a wider rim to a snappy cup - just can't get the projection I want out of it), the Schilke 47C4, and a particularly larger rimmed Bach 6.75C I bought on eBay from someone in Russia years ago.

I would love if mouthpiece makers routinely added a comfy, 25.2 sized rim on an 11C/6.75C cup to their lineup. So many catalogs jump from 25.0 to 25.4, and to me that seems like a missed opportunity. While there are a few offerings out there, I really think it's a sweet spot that often gets overlooked.

I play a Minick L on my Holton 185 bass, though I just got a dependent tru-bore Shires which I am probably making the full time switch to.

[Posaunus]

I would love if mouthpiece makers routinely added a comfy, 25.2 sized rim on an 11C/6.75C cup to their lineup. So many catalogs jump from 25.0 to 25.4, and to me that seems like a missed opportunity. While there are a few offerings out there, I really think it's a sweet spot that often gets overlooked.

A few mouthpieces in the 25.2 mm (±) cup I.D range (also comfortable for me):
• Bach 9
• Conn 2
• Conn 3
• Curry 6C (or 6M)
• Giddings Chubasco
• Josef Klier 8C or 8D (hidden gem)
• Christian Lindberg 10CL
• Stork Custom T1 (very nice piece)
• Yamaha Nils Landgren

[Trombo]

I would love if mouthpiece makers routinely added a comfy, 25.2 sized rim on an 11C/6.75C cup to their lineup. So many catalogs jump from 25.0 to 25.4, and to me that seems like a missed opportunity. While there are a few offerings out there, I really think it's a sweet spot that often gets overlooked.

A few mouthpieces in the 25.2 mm (±) cup I.D range (also comfortable for me):
• Bach 9
• Conn 2
• Conn 3
• Curry 6C (or 6M)
• Giddings Chubasco
• Josef Klier 8C or 8D (hidden gem)
• Christian Lindberg 10CL
• Stork Custom T1 (very nice piece)
• Yamaha Nils Landgren

You can add Yamaha 48 (25.25 mm) (played by James Morrison) and the new Denis Wick 10SC (25.2 mm) to this.

[ngrinder]

Thanks for these, this is a great list! I’ve actually gone through most of them, save for the Chubasco and the 10SC. I’ll track them down. I played a Mt Vernon 9 for a long time, absolutely loved the rim, but the cup really didn’t project and have enough highs. Got the rim copied, tried to have it mated to a shallower cup and ended up making a few very expensive paperweights.

[Cmillar]

Solution:

Get hold of Doug Elliott.

Get him to work with you on what kind of rim your face is best suited.

It doesn't matter what stage of trombone playing you're at, either professional or serious college type player. I played professionally for many years on the 'wrong size' for my face. Now I'm playing even better thanks to Doug. You have to want to make the change and take some risks while adjusting to a more efficient way of playing.

Save yourself thousands of future dollars by getting a rim, cup, backbore that works for what kind of playing you do.

You'll also gain valuable new insights on what's really happening when you're blowing into a trombone, or any brass instrument.

Give yourself an Xmas present. Make an appointment to work with Doug.

[harrisonreed]

I just played Maslanka 4 on my DE SB106 J J9 last night. I'm not a bass trombonist by choice -- would not have been able to get through that concert without his gear.

The same rim for everything really helps if you are a doubler that doesn't often double.

Thanks Doug!

[Lastbone]

I think the best thing to do is to pair the mouthpieces to each horn... no matter what the specs are. It's not that hard to switch between different mouthpieces as long as the horns play great.

[trombonedemon]

Do what FEELS physically fine, then adjust accordingly, don't forget, depending on physicals, a mouthpiece can function as a razor-sharp instrument.

[aasavickas]

"I match my mouthpiece to my horn, and play the "largest" small piece I can manage."

This is kind of my position. Especially after recently having a long discussion in Battle Creek with Scott Hartman. I am convinced that the most important thing is that the mouthpiece matches the leadpipe and general flow of the horn. I am convinced that most horns that I thought were dogs just didn't match the mouthpiece I was playing on at the time.

That said, I personally play the smallest equipment I can get away with. I've heard great players like Alain Trudel, Ian Bousfeild, Scott Hartman attempt to play the smallest most efficient gear possible.

I play on a reasonably sized bass trombone piece and on each horn I play what fits the horn and sounds right. So small on Alto, 5G ish for jazz, etc. This helps get a characteristic Alto sound on top and Bass on bottom. That said, the smallest mouthpiece I can comfortably play helps with endurance. Not so much for range. That is the same on all equipment from about super Bb down to double pedals.

I used to play everything on Doug Elliot's with the same sized rim a 104 lexan. However, it made the bass trombone playing hard to get a characteristic sound. So now I play on largish rims but more typical cups and rims in general.

By the way, Scott Hartman is doing some amazing things with his mouthpieces. You should really check them out. These are hands down the best mouthpieces I have every played. His ideas about mouthpieces are a bit heterodox but I think he happens to be right and the proof is in the sound and feel.


http://hartmanmouthpieces.net/the-buzz/