Help! Has this happened to anyone else!

[tskeldon]

Hello all!

It's happened! The time has come, and I give up! It has been 2 years since my playing began to decline, and 1 1/2 years since I started this thread. No course of remediation has yielded any lasting improvement to my situation, so, having no 'need' to play, I am going to stop playing altogether to spare myself disappointment and start to heal.

I am going to list my Williams trombone (on this forum first) so that 'it' can enjoy a life of 'musical' (rather than purely ornamental) service with someone else. Otherwise, it will only persist in taunting me to take it up again, for standing conspicuously idol, in silent memorial of my failed ambition for my partnership with it.

Thank-you to those of you who posted constructively, and good luck to those of you who are also struggling with this condition. More particularly, my apologies to those of you who I have disappointed, for in failing myself I have also to a greater or lesser degree failed you too, if you were hoping for a successful prescriptive outcome for yourself.

Tim

[Bach5G]

Take up bass trombone.

[Burgerbob]

did you ever get a lesson with Doug or Dave?

[Doug Elliott]

No.
If you recall, he was only interested in "documenting" his issues.

[BrassedOn]

Best to you in your recovery. If any of the conditions people have described turn out to be anyones case, do get soon to a professional medical evaluation. And do take time away from the horn. And make peace with that. Friends have had focal dystonia and Bells palsy, and it took effort and time to the correct assessment and recover.

Different case for me, I had a couple of physical injuries to the face and lip, that could have ended my brass career. Had to take time off and rehab very very slowly. Months. What also helped was some mental health counseling to deal with the potential loss of a big part of my identity, and learning upright bass. Keeping a musical outlet fed my soul while taking time off trombone and tuba. Also, my sense of harmony and such for jazz improved, which I could apply to my horns when I healed. Years later but not immediately I surpassed my prior ability.

Good luck

[OompaLoompia]

Crazy how you had two known experts in this thread offering you a consultation while others in the thread pointed you in the direction of the two aforementioned experts, yet you chose not to go that route. You said "no course of remediation has yielded any lasting improvement..." yet it seems like you haven't explored all your options based on Doug's comment from earlier. And being only interested in "documenting" said issues instead of exhausting all your options for recovery is quite an odd decision to say the least. To each his own I guess...

[2bobone]

Take up bass trombone.

I'm sure that the bass trombone players on this site would not agree with such a dismissive post. Anyone who has seriously attempted to play bass trombone realizes that it is as demanding as playing tenor or alto but in a different way. It appears that the OP thinks playing bass trombone is a "walk in the park" in comparison to tenor. It. Is. Not.
If I misunderstood the intent of the OP I'd appreciate hearing what it is that I misunderstood.

[Bach5G]

Take up bass trombone.

I'm sure that the bass trombone players on this site would not agree with such a dismissive post. Anyone who has seriously attempted to play bass trombone realizes that it is as demanding as playing tenor or alto but in a different way. It appears that the OP thinks playing bass trombone is a "walk in the park" in comparison to tenor. It. Is. Not.
If I misunderstood the intent of the OP I'd appreciate hearing what it is that I misunderstood.

Actually the OP said no such thing. I did. With tongue in cheek. More or less.

[henrysa]

God I'm glad this marathon is over. I am a very less than average player so not qualified to offer diagnosis as to player's diminished abilities, both physical and mental. But as a former high stakes salesman, I could sense an insufferable client and would exit stage left. You fellows' good natures are to be applauded. Obviously player did not want a solution, but did want us all to play along as he played us all a long time.

[2bobone]

Regarding "Bach 5G's post": "Actually the OP said no such thing. I did. With tongue in cheek. More or less."

Oh ! Pardon me ! Perhaps next time, a video would clarify my misunderstanding ? Sometimes a tongue in cheek is hard to see without visual aids. I see that we are on the same page and apologize for my misunderstanding.

[Bach5G]

Have you tried a Wedge?

[tskeldon]

Crazy how you had two known experts in this thread offering you a consultation while others in the thread pointed you in the direction of the two aforementioned experts, yet you chose not to go that route. You said "no course of remediation has yielded any lasting improvement..." yet it seems like you haven't explored all your options based on Doug's comment from earlier. And being only interested in "documenting" said issues instead of exhausting all your options for recovery is quite an odd decision to say the least. To each his own I guess...

Prior to posting this thread, my research had already proven to my satisfaction that no one 'recovers' completely from dystonia; they just dance or struggle with it to one degree of frustration (and desperation) or another.

Having finally accepted that it really 'is' dystonia, I'm resolved that I have no time or interest to give over to partnering with it, and therefore no need of the methodological work-arounds employed to 'fool' the condition.

Thanks for your concern.

[Burgerbob]

Is that true, though? I feel that there are several players that have made it back.

[Wilktone]

Prior to posting this thread, my research had already proven to my satisfaction that no one 'recovers' completely from dystonia; they just dance or struggle with it to one degree of frustration (and desperation) or another.

I'm not sure how complete your research was. There are many cases of players who have recovered from what was diagnosed (by someone, not necessarily a medical professional). I can think of a few off the top of my head, including one local player, who I spent some time working with who then took lessons with Doug. There are at least three other local players I know who had similar chop issues that have gone to Doug for help and they all are still playing and sounding great. I just played a big band gig last weekend with a couple of them.

From what I've seen (both in the musical and medical literature on the subject and from working with players) there is no one-size-fits-all solution to severe embouchure dysfunction (whatever you choose to call it), you need to get advise from someone who knows what to look for and knows how to help work out what you need to be doing.

Having finally accepted that it really 'is' dystonia, I'm resolved that I have no time or interest to give over to partnering with it, and therefore no need of the methodological work-arounds employed to 'fool' the condition.

Have you actually had a diagnosis from a neurologist? Gotten a second opinion? Gotten an embouchure expert to look at your playing for type switching? I wonder if your acceptance is simply giving yourself permission to give up, which seems to be what you were looking for in this topic and in the "research" you say you've done. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I offered earlier to scope out your chops for free. Doug made himself available for a lesson.

But you do you.

Dave

[tskeldon]

Hi Dave,

Yes, I've seen a neurologist and I have peripheral symptoms that support the diagnosis. I guess the point that the kind individuas here don't get (despite me saying it repeatedly) is that I'm just not 'that' concerned with playing the trombone that I'm willing to undertake 'that deliberate' a 'recovery' or address of the matter.

Play has always been easy for me, even effortless to a point, which I think is part of the problem. However, doing what I do, I am very analytical, well practiced, and quite capable of devising new ways to accomodate and possibly ameliorate the condition given what I know about the condition, but who can be bothered without need.

I play both piano and classical guitar and the repertoire for those instruments (outside of jazz) is IMO much better and more musically significant than that which is written for the 'legit' (is that term still appropriate?) trombone. That's why this time out I played only transcriptions, having played everthing else without much joy.

It was nice to play again after 35 years, and should be encouraging to all that it comes back (and then some) so quickly, but the truth is I've no interest in giging or playing in any ensembles, so I can get my 'solo' musical fix more rewardingly and more harmonically completely on those polyphonic instruments.

I'm not rejecting the trombone casually, because I was excited about what I was achieving with extreme alternate positions, but I was previously disatisfied with the limits of what 'I thought' was its persistent performance paradigm, though things now seem to be very much more 'diverse' and player-centric than they once were.

As soon as my instrument is sold, I will be free of its...persistent call to duty (I hadn't maintained an instrument in my home previously). Apparently putting it in the case isn't enough. As is the case with an addict, I keep going back to it, but the highs now aren't as high and don't last as long, and the lows are lower and interminable.

P.S. You know what they say about the patient who has himself for a doctor...

[afugate]

Prior to posting this thread, my research had already proven to my satisfaction that no one 'recovers' completely from dystonia; they just dance or struggle with it to one degree of frustration (and desperation) or another.

Having finally accepted that it really 'is' dystonia, I'm resolved that I have no time or interest to give over to partnering with it, and therefore no need of the methodological work-arounds employed to 'fool' the condition.

Thanks for your concern.

I realize you've made your own determination, so this is for others who come across this as they struggle with task specific focal dystonia in their embouchure.

In the trombone world, both David Vining and Dion Tucker have gone on to resume full performing schedules. I visited with Professor Vining at ITF this summer and heard him perform. He certainly doesn't sound as though he is fooling his condition.

In my own situation, I am relearning a different embouchure approach with help from Doug Elliott and Dr. Irv Wagner at The University of Oklahoma. That has allowed me to resume performing. The challenge is that it's darned hard to replace 40+ years of muscle memory. That means I have to be very intentional about warmup and preparation. And although I've always been a very competent sight reader, sight reading causes problems because that's when old muscle memory slips in. I try to avoid sight reading on gigs when possible.

I'll also note that Doug was pretty specific in the instructions he gave me. I still have a long way to go before I will feel like I've "recovered." Today, I'm just excited I didn't have to give up playing.

--Andy in OKC

[blast]

People can come back from these issues....sometimes. I've seen it happen, but sometimes even the best and most diligent players don't come back and not for want of trying. There are lots of variations of this condition.

[afugate]

People can come back from these issues....sometimes. I've seen it happen, but sometimes even the best and most diligent players don't come back and not for want of trying. There are lots of variations of this condition.

Yes, indeed. That's also worth noting. Thank you for providing context to my exuberance.

--Andy in OKC

[Wilktone]

Hi, tskeldon.

Yes, I've seen a neurologist and I have peripheral symptoms that support the diagnosis.

I'm glad that you took the time to get a medical opinion on this, rather than self diagnosing. That said, I wonder a bit about you having "peripheral symptoms" that suggest focal task specific dystonia. FTSD is something that is determined clinically, meaning by checking off what symptoms you have and if those symptoms are consistent, the diagnosis can be given. There are many different things that can cause similar symptoms and if you're serious about addressing it, it's worth getting a second medical opinion and that of someone like Doug or myself who has a background in addressing embouchure type switching.

I guess the point that the kind individuas here don't get (despite me saying it repeatedly) is that I'm just not 'that' concerned with playing the trombone that I'm willing to undertake 'that deliberate' a 'recovery' or address of the matter.

Play has always been easy for me, even effortless to a point, which I think is part of the problem.

A couple of thoughts on this. First, so-called "natural" players are more prone to embouchure breakdowns such as the one you're experiencing. My hypothesis is that most of these players never had to learn how to analyze their technique and when problems arise they don't understand why that can't "muscle" their way through the issues any more. It's sort of like lifting with your back. When you're younger you can get away with this for a while, but when you get older it can take its toll and cause a full blown breakdown.

Most of us have to work very hard to achieve what you apparently have done with little effort. Surely you can understand why those of us who have invested much more time and effort into playing trombone don't understand why you're so willing to put it aside so quickly when offers to help have been given.

However, doing what I do, I am very analytical, well practiced, and quite capable of devising new ways to accomodate and possibly ameliorate the condition given what I know about the condition, but who can be bothered without need.

Well if you don't really care enough to be bothered, then getting any analysis from Doug of me is going to fall on deaf ears. I'm still a bit confused about your interest in "documenting" what you're going through without attempting to address correcting it. It's probably not too helpful for musicians experiencing similar issues to read about someone who simply plans to give it up. I would imagine that those musicians would be more interested in learning about a process to make corrections.

One final thought that I want to mention. You've commented a few times here that you've been exploring a type of playing that is somehow quite different from standard trombone playing (upper register, longer positions, etc.). One thing that I would consider is that in the process of doing this exploration you're allowing yourself to do things in your mechanics that are causing your symptoms. For example, if you're playing your upper register in the outer positions it's possible that you're allowing the slide arm to pull your horn angle to an incorrect position on your face, which can definitely cause some type switching. I've already mentioned earlier that type switching or other mechanical issues in one part of your range can lead to symptoms in another. If you're not in the correct spot to begin with, you're not going to be able to smoothly go to the correct spot in another range.

Best of luck with your future musical endeavors.


Dave

[henrysa]

Well written. Everyone's heartfelt efforts to extend a hand or an ear have fallen on deafness. Also frustrating for us bone heads who alternatingly treasure their tiniest improvements and are frustrated by their trombone's refusal to play nice. This thread has taken on a life of it's own now. Like Mr Toad's Wild Ride, it feels like an A ticket at classic Disneyland. Who needs to chase ambulances when you can read the latest installment of this soapless opera sitting on the sofa with my dog. And I've learned so many new scrabble words. If there was only a virtual tip jar I would load it up.

[Bach5G]

Wilktone wrote:

‘First, so-called "natural" players are more prone to embouchure breakdowns such as the one you're experiencing. My hypothesis is that most of these players never had to learn how to analyze their technique and when problems arise they don't understand why that can't "muscle" their way through the issues any more. It's sort of like lifting with your back. When you're younger you can get away with this for a while, but when you get older it can take its toll and cause a full blown breakdown.’

As I’ve aged, I’ve thought about this. In my 20s I had a decent high range. Just muscled it. I recall the local top pro, a young guy at the time, allegedly resisted lifting and arching the tongue. Thinned out the tone he said. In my 40s, the same approach seemed to cause strained throat and neck muscles such that I began to have trouble swallowing.

But now, in my late 60s, I’ve had to learn to play smarter. After lessons from R Sauer and D Elliott, and checking out the horn player, Baadsvik, Epstein and MRI videos on YouTube, I think I’ve got a handle on things. When I’m mindful of using proper technique, those high notes are easier.

[tskeldon]

I guess that means that this thread has exhausted itself. If it is any comfort to those of you who apparently feel disrespected that I didn't 'value' the forum's advice by acting on it (though you should not, because that I don't 'value' the advice in this particular instance doesn't mean that I don't 'appreciate' it, or respect the author or agent attached to it) as if it were something more than an opinion solicited, held personally or collectively (it matters not which), know that I have started to have difficulty with my hands now too that are challenging my ability to play both classical piano and guitar at a similarly refined level. Serves me right! LOL!

[Bach5G]

Diffuse neurological symptomatology does not sound very promising.