Does the 8H sound the same as an 88H, minus the valve

[Model34]

Am I deluding myself? I have believed with no proof that modular horns offered instruments that would produce the same tonal character with and without the valve. So far, the evidence I’ve collected tell me just the opposite!

I bought an A47 Artisan Stradivarius. Then ordered a gooseneck. With the gooseneck installed, the horn produces a completely different sound than it does with the valve installed. With the valve its a Bach. A sound I know well and love. With the gooseneck installed, I don’t recognize it as any brand I’ve ever played.

Thinking that was some kind of fluke, but having no way to test it, I decided to try a Shires QAlessi and to compare it against a Q30A at my local store. So I ordered the Shires LB Neckpipe. Shires makes one model custom level LB Neckpipe for all its LB tenors. In my testing with the neckpipe, it would only mount on the Q30A. Again, I did not recognize the straight horn produced by this pairing. Unpairing this neckpipe proved a nightmare of its own, see my other post about the Q30A.

Doug said his Slokars sound great with or without the trigger. If there is a Slokar near me in Central Texas, I don’t know it!

What is your experience with these matters? Of my 68 years of playing, less than 1% of my time has been on trigger horns. Trombone sound: I’m a pro level expert, but as to valves and triggers, I’m really just a nubi.

Thank you for your help,

Joe, Old, but not dead…….yet!

I ask about the 8H because I’m about to have my 88HSGXCL chopped to a straight horn. I’m hoping the 8H and 88H are very similar sounding horns.

[hyperbolica]

I'm a big 88h fan, but I like to play my 8h even better. It's similar, but not the same. 8h feels more nimble, lighter, responds faster, as you'd expect. You can tell they're related, but they're not indistinguishable. You might consider just buying an 8h bell section instead of having a nice horn chopped up.

To me a Bach 36 and 36b are also mostly similar, but again I prefer the lighter horn, as it feels more nimble to me. I'm not afraid of 6th position.

The SGX takes a different direction with the 88h. To me, Elkhart 8/88h is about a light bell, but the SGX I would think is a bit heavier. So tendencies there might be completely different.

Sometimes the difference is bigger. 78h and 79h are very different in how the feel to play. The weight of the valve makes all the difference in the world. To me, the 78h can get crass, and feels smaller than it should. The 79h is just right. People have written about differences between 3b and 3bf.

Sounds like an expensive experiment.

[ithinknot]

I have believed with no proof that modular horns offered instruments that would produce the same tonal character with and without the valve. So far, the evidence I’ve collected tell me just the opposite!

There's your answer. Different ≠ worse, but you're not going to find 'the same'.

I ask about the 8H because I’m about to have my 88HSGXCL chopped to a straight horn. I’m hoping the 8H and 88H are very similar sounding horns.

That's a terrible idea if you've never tried any variety of 8H first. You're taking an expensive horn you like and spending money to turn it into a complete unknown with a considerably reduced resale value.

Also, if this is all rooted in weight/ergonomic considerations, the sterling bell is heavy regardless, but may feel very nose-heavy without the valve, even with a counterweight. At least try a normal 8H first!

[Burgerbob]

Yup, 8H is good. I don't imagine an 8HSGX will be quite the same, but it will certainly still be quite heavy and unbalanced in comparison.

[OneTon]

I have a Bach LT42G which is actually oversized in bell diameter, and a Bach LT42BGA Hagmann with gold brass bell. The LT42BGA is good. The LT42G is great. When an unplanned event happened to the LT42G slide,I put it in the shop and got the other slide out. Some redundancy is good as long as it does not evolve into an obsessive compulsive disorder. I acquired the LT42G for a cost approaching 10% of the LT42BGA.

[Matt K]

Depends on who you ask and how they are defining "the same." All 88s play similar. But then again, you could say the same about all trombones. But... then again, you could say that no trombones play alike because each is different.

I can't remember if you'd already done so, but have you looked into an ergobone? You might find, as noted by others, that if weight is a consideration or the primary consideration that sch a device solves your issue w/o taking a torch to your instrunent

[Thrawn22]

I had a modern 8HLT I had made modular to accommodate a CL valve. Historically I've always played straight tenors. The valve section helped out the overall sound (improved maybe) of bell section. When i put the straight neck on it didn't feel quite the same. When i added a second counterweight to the straight section it's sound was on par with the valve section when attached.

No making you 88HSGX convertible or modular without having an idea what it'd do to the sound is a huge gamble if you like it as is. If you go thru with it know that you may not like the end result.

[Pudding]

Does it sound the same to a listener? Probably.

Does it feel the same to to the player? Probably not.

I know that for me the 8h feels more nimble without a counterweight, but I doubt it sounds much different up front.

[GabrielRice]

Some redundancy is good as long as it does not evolve into an obsessive compulsive disorder.

What's wrong with a little obsessive compulsive disorder if you're not hurting anybody

[imsevimse]

I now have two Conn 88h and I have had a Conn 8h in the past. They play different. Infact most trombones I've played have played and felt different. The only brand that I've found to be consistent is the Yamaha, the ones I've tried of same model have been very alike.

I sold the 8h because I did not use it as much as the 88. It was before I became a collector. Today I probably had kept that 8h, it was also a nice horn.

As others have said a horn without the valve responds faster and blows more open. Some like a horn better with the valve, some like it better without. I like both.

/Tom

[OneTon]

What's wrong with a little obsessive compulsive disorder if you're not hurting anybody

It’s all a matter of scale.

[Bonearzt]

What's wrong with a little obsessive compulsive disorder if you're not hurting anybody

It’s all a matter of scale.

All scales matter!!!

[CalgaryTbone]

I think it's mostly about response rather than sound, but there is some difference in the sound on most detachable valve horns that I've played with/without the valve. My 1950's 8H has a detachable valve section built by Chuck at the Brasslab. I generally preferred the open horn, but if I was using it with the valve for a couple of weeks, there would be an adjustment period to come back to the straight horn. I found that I would miss certain characteristics in the sound. Then - the same in reverse going the other way.

With Conns (and probably Bach's, Holten's, etc. as well) there are big differences in response in different eras as well, besides the variety of one horn to the next. If you're talking about using modern valves, that would add another variable - not necessarily in a bad way, but different, especially if they are bigger and heavier and blow a lot more open.

There is a reason that so many Principal players in previous eras preferred the straight horns. It frees up the horn, especially in the upper register. Not sure how different it sounds in the audience, but the blow and the feedback are rewarding to the player.

Jim Scott

[atopper333]

I definitely agree with Jim’s comment about response. I’ve played a few 88hs and an 8h and have owned an early 70s 88h and a much newer early 2000s? 8HT. To me, the sound is very similar…slightly different but very similar and other I play around say the same you can I guess say they sound like they’re ‘related.’

The biggest difference to me has been player feedback. I like the ht or thinner bells, but I feel uncomfortable on a Remington shank mouthpiece, and had the same ‘feeling’ on the Conn 88h with Remington shank as I did on an Elkhart era Blessing B88 with Remington receiver.

Maybe there is a feedback difference due to the attachment points of the wrap to the bell? Can’t really speak to that all that much. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to play a newer 88ht to compare to the 8ht so it still feels like an unfair comparison…but I wonder how much if it comes down to what the individual player is more comfortable with playing and how we as players process the feedback.

[ACBEric]

I have both an Elkhart 8H (67) and an 88H (69). I prefer the 8H. I think it just feels little lighter (not only weight but in how it plays). I used to have an Edwards that had both the trigger and a straight-goose neck. I always preferred playing it as a straight horn unless I had to use the trigger for range (I mean, as much as it might pain us to use 6th and 7th position we all know how). Ultimately I am sure some of the difference is perceived and some of it is real. To what extent that is true is probably unique to each player. I am not sure that I would chop up a horn though as any cuts and changes made will surely impact how it plays. However, if you have a great tech do it then maybe it is worth it to you having the horn turned into a convertible?

[tkelley216]

My job had an 88h and an 8h from the later Cleveland years (right after moving some production up from Texas and partnering with the Cleveland orchestra). The original owner said it used to be common to have an 8h and 88h if you (or your job) could afford it, using the 8h when you could get away with not having a trigger.

I tested them against each other pretty extensively with a friend and found the 8h played easier and sounded more vibrant than the 88h. This particular era of Conn's had heavier bells than others so the lighter 8h probably sounds a bit more like an Elkhart 88h or modern copy/equivalent. For me the 8h was comparable with horns coming out of modern factories while the 88h just sounded and played like an "old" horn.

No two instruments are the same and while it's possible my 88h is a dud, I'm guessing there's a reason many Conn players would use 8h's when possible. Straight .547s seem to have lost popularity after the 8h. I'm guessing it's a combination of heavier slides/bells that are harder to hold and new rotors and wraps that free up the blow. It also makes sense that if you only own one .547 trombone, it should have a trigger.