Playing double valve notes on bass trombone

[JeffBone44]

During the past few years, most of the time I've been asked to play bass trombone. So I now consider myself more of a bass trombonist than tenor trombonist. The two most difficult notes for me to play cleanly and loudly are the double valve C and B natural. That makes sense to me - blowing through two valves with the slide extended can't be easy, even with excellent Shires valves. (Yes, I do know that it's me and not the horn!) When I listen to other bass trombonists with more experience, it seems like they can play those notes cleanly and loudly at will. I, on the other hand, have difficulty supplying the needed air support for those notes, and I don't always get the response that I want.

Some of the advice that I've gotten is to just keep playing those notes in my practice sessions and they will naturally get better, but it's easier said than done. A big issue is strength and endurance. I quickly get too tired playing low notes over and over. I have the Phil Teele book, but sometimes getting through only one or two lines of that is a challenge for me.

Maybe it is simply an endurance issue. When I first pick up the horn, I can play those double valve notes at will for the first minute, and then they begin to feel stuffy and uncentered, probably due to quick fatigue.

What are your favorite exercises for practicing the double valve notes?

[Burgerbob]

This is a great question.

I think it comes down to a few big things to me:

staying supple in the chops

with as small an aperture as possible

with immediate air

I find a lot of players (including myself at most points in my playing) default to a really open, but tense setup (the tension comes from being too open- there's no way for the note to happen otherwise). This requires a lot of muscle and a ton of air to work- this is why you get tired playing the Teeles after just a couple lines, and why the response isn't ever as quick as you think it should be. It's why you can't sustain as long as you would like.

Try approaching the low range in a smaller, softer way (softer in the face, sometimes in dynamic as well) and I think you'll notice a difference. The air will be easier to use, the response will be better, and the sound will actually be much larger and more centered.

I'm sure there will be other great thoughts, can't wait to see them.

[JeffBone44]

Try approaching the low range in a smaller, softer way (softer in the face, sometimes in dynamic as well) and I think you'll notice a difference. The air will be easier to use, the response will be better, and the sound will actually be much larger and more centered.

It's really interesting that you mention this. I've noticed that when I relax and am gentle with the air, I get better response than when try to push too much air through the horn at once. It's a concept that I've begun working on for the low register - using a large volume of air but at the same time being slow and gentle with it.

[Burgerbob]

Try approaching the low range in a smaller, softer way (softer in the face, sometimes in dynamic as well) and I think you'll notice a difference. The air will be easier to use, the response will be better, and the sound will actually be much larger and more centered.

It's really interesting that you mention this. I've noticed that when I relax and am gentle with the air, I get better response than when try to push too much air through the horn at once. It's a concept that I've begun working on for the low register - using a large volume of air but at the same time being slow and gentle with it.

Yup, that's exactly it! The trick it to have an immediate, fearless start to the air that is not harsh or motivated by tension.

Bass trombone is not an instrument that rewards "trying hard."

[harrisonreed]

I'm a tenor player who recently has had to cover some bass parts, but those notes speak pretty easily for me. Some stuff to try:

1. I tuned my valves so that low C with both valves is very close to low Eb with one valve, so they are pulled quite a bit. This actually might make the valves harder to play for some people, but the key is that I know where low C is and I'm not guessing. Double trigger notes have a home base, and single trigger notes have a home base, and home base is a little past third, not in first. This makes it easy to actually slot and not "lip" low notes. All this to say, the notes won't speak if you're not playing in the slot.

2. My Yamaha 830 physically would not slot these notes. Other basses would, but not the 830. This tells me that I IDed an equipment problem. The solution was to build the shank of my mouthpiece with Teflon tape so it didn't go as far into the leadpipe. Now those notes slot and have edge. Talking like 1/16th of an inch for most horns, but .25in on the 830.

Both of these solutions above have the added bonus of allowing the main tuning slide to be pushed in further, which also makes the trombone play and slot better.

[Matt K]

Can you play from say, middle C to the low C without removing the mouthpiece from your chops? Lot of tenor players I’ve observed seem to have a very discernible “reset” where they take their mouthpiece off their face and use a totally different embrochure for low notes around that spot. Reducing the amount that you need to have such radical shifts will possibly help… if you shift. I suspect you might have this issue because you mention that it sounds good when you first play but then if you’ve been playing for a little have issues. It is speculation on my part though so take my internet stranger advice with a very large grain of salt.

[JohnL]

Harrison alluded to this, but it bears repeating in blunter terms...

Make sure you've got the slide in the right place so you're not subconsciously lipping the note into pitch. That'll burn up your chops very quickly.

[GGJazz]

Hi All.
Hi JeffBone44 .

Reading your post , I presume that you are still playing tenor trbn too . If this were true , I suggest you to stay only on bass trbn , at least for several months .
Also , I think that would be better not to aim to play these notes FF . To me , first you have to reach a good , clear , steady , centered suond at medium/ soft dynamics , good articolations , flexibility , ecc . I think that it take a lots of time to be able to play bass trbn with a good sound in that range at very loud dynamics . It is the same as to play very high tones FF (high D or Eb ecc) on tenor ; so one have to pay the same dues : practice a lot...!

If I can give you an advice , I suggest to keep your mouth' corners in a firmness position ; and also to avoid puffing cheecks .

Further , reading your post on the Mouthpieces section (on the thread " Mpcs sized between 59 /60" ) , I think that probably you are playing with a Wedge 1G mpc . Is a really big piece , I have played it ; maybe a smaller measure like the Wedge S59 would be better , I think .

Best regards
Giancarlo

[JeffBone44]

Hi All.
Hi JeffBone44 .

Reading your post , I presume that you are still playing tenor trbn too . If this were true , I suggest you to stay only on bass trbn , at least for several months .
Also , I think that would be better not to aim to play these notes FF . To me , first you have to reach a good , clear , steady , centered suond at medium/ soft dynamics , good articolations , flexibility , ecc . I think that it take a lots of time to be able to play bass trbn with a good sound in that range at very loud dynamics . It is the same as to play very high tones FF (high D or Eb ecc) on tenor ; so one have to pay the same dues : practice a lot...!

If I can give you an advice , I suggest to keep your mouth' corners in a firmness position ; and also to avoid puffing cheecks .

Further , reading your post on the Mouthpieces section (on the thread " Mpcs sized between 59 /60" ) , I think that probably you are playing with a Wedge 1G mpc . Is a really big piece , I have played it ; maybe a smaller measure like the Wedge S59 would be better , I think .

Best regards
Giancarlo

Unfortunately, it's not feasible for me to only play bass trombone. I get hired for shows where I have to double on tenor and bass, and there are other gigs where I have to use tenor. I am currently in two orchestras where I am in the bass trombone chair, so bass does get the majority of my time.

I do have a Greg Black 1 1/4G, so I suppose I can switch back to that mouthpiece. I do like how it's easier to play in most ranges, and that size is certainly more efficient in terms of air support. I'll admit that I gravitate towards larger mouthpieces to help me in the double trigger register, but I would love to be able to play a smaller mouthpiece.

[JeffBone44]

Can you play from say, middle C to the low C without removing the mouthpiece from your chops? Lot of tenor players I’ve observed seem to have a very discernible “reset” where they take their mouthpiece off their face and use a totally different embrochure for low notes around that spot. Reducing the amount that you need to have such radical shifts will possibly help… if you shift. I suspect you might have this issue because you mention that it sounds good when you first play but then if you’ve been playing for a little have issues. It is speculation on my part though so take my internet stranger advice with a very large grain of salt.

It's interesting that you mention this - I my lessons with Doug Elliott he showed me how it's possible to play without shifting, so that's something that I work on every time that I play. Sometimes when jumping between ranges it sounds great, other times it's a struggle, so I am trying to get the "no shifting" playing more consistent. And if I'm not careful I do go back to my old habit of radically shifting, but I am working to get away from that as much as possible.

[GabrielRice]

Very good advice here. And the "no shifting" work you're doing is great as well. Stick with it!

First, mouthpiece. The standard Greg Black 1-1/4G is an air hog, and in my opinion not a balanced design (he has options available that bring it to a better balance if you want to stay in that sound and feel world though). If I remember the specs of the Wedge 1G correctly, it is too. Since you already have some contact with Doug, I suggest trying something from him, probably in the XB series. His mouthpieces very much reward his practice methods and embouchure guidance. You can use a pretty big rim - 113 or 114 - and even a pretty deep cup - L or M - with a much more efficient throat and backbore. If you're doing shows and need some bark, maybe the K cup is even better.

Also, maybe you don't actually need to play as loud as you think you do.

Second, and even more important, what specifically are you doing to work on a continuous embouchure through that range? I would suggest extending your basic lip slurs down through the valve and double valve register, especially simple 3-note slurs through partials 2-4. Keep the valve(s) down for all three notes, and work on smooth slurs in both directions with stable corners and minimal motion - that's not to say NO motion. Once those simple slurs are working pretty well, start to extend through higher partials, still with valve(s) down.

The embouchure formation you need to do that is what you need to have clean, clear playing in the low register, and the kind of air you need to play well down there will also become readily apparent. I think more in terms of how much inflation I need in my body behind the sound than how much air I need to move - I guess that's another way of saying support.

[JeffBone44]

Thanks Gabriel, I will definitely use the lip slur exercise that you suggested. And I will get advice from Doug on a mouthpiece setup that's more efficient than what I currently have.

I'm using a very large mouthpiece for just two notes on the whole horn, the double valve C and B, which I'm realizing is ridiculous. That shouldn't be necessary, and I need to just work on playing in the low range correctly.

[BGuttman]

I figured out Gabe's exercise on my own , but that doesn't make it any less good. I used it when I was getting acquainted with my 2 trigger bass. Being able to play music in the single and double trigger range using the 3rd and upper partials can be a help in solidifying the notes you must play with the two triggers. It also helps the upper register on the Bb side of the horn.

[blast]

Lots of good advice here. I would like to point out that you don't have to use a large mouthpiece. I make a 1 1/2g size work down there. The key is developing lip elasticity. Most people start accessing those notes with big contortions and a very open setting. It's a start but not a way forward. Follow previous advice and go for flexibility.

[JeffBone44]

Thanks everyone for the great advice. Bruce, I never thought about playing with the triggers engaged in the upper ranges of the instrument. I'll be experimenting with exercises that incorporate that strategy.

And I will be moving to a smaller mouthpiece as soon as I get my hands on one.

[Lamplighter]

JeffBone44, I've been playing bass a little over 3 months. My instructor has me using a 1 1/2G (Bach, since I moved from a 2 G Bach) and doing all those exercises mentioned. Very frustrating at first, and lots of time all I got was air, but stick with it. Progress is slow but about the time you think you can't do it, the notes start to come and you start to hear the progress.

[JeffBone44]

JeffBone44, I've been playing bass a little over 3 months. My instructor has me using a 1 1/2G (Bach, since I moved from a 2 G Bach) and doing all those exercises mentioned. Very frustrating at first, and lots of time all I got was air, but stick with it. Progress is slow but about the time you think you can't do it, the notes start to come and you start to hear the progress.

Thanks for the words of encouragement!

[Kbiggs]

Like Gabe said, lots of good advice here. From my own experience, I’ve found:

1. Like blast said, people unused to playing bass tend to use an aperture too large and try to push too much air through the horn. Remember that trombones like all instruments are resonators: the lips vibrate the existing air column in the instrument. Using a constant, steady stream of “warm” air through an aperture that is just large enough to produce a loud, resonant, and pleasant buzz produces a louder-sounding note, and a more pleasant-sounding note.

“Warm” air, to my understanding, means a steady stream through a relaxed lower portion of the neck and throat, i.e., from the collarbones on up. The tongue moves up and down according to the register: it helps the air go faster or slower, but the rest of the neck and throat should remain relatively relaxed and supple.

2. Like Gabe, burgerbob, and blast said, use the smallest lip aperture needed to produce the sound, and allow it to be supple enough to get larger (louder) and smaller (softer) as needed. It helps to keep the muscles just under the corners of the mouth firm (not hard) and the bottom lip smooth (not stretched).

3. Like several people have already said: get used to playing in tune in the double-valve register. Try to use a drone more than a tuner. Yes, the positions in the valve and double-valve register are different. Get used to playing them. Simple melodies within the register can help in addition to slurs and flexibilities.

Remember that while you are playing, there are three sources of pitch going simultaneously: your head (“ears”), the lips, and the length of the horn (the air column). They have to be in synch—ALL playing the same pitch at the exact same moment—to produce a beautiful, resonant tone.

[BoomtownRath]

What helped me was playing false notes, trying to lip the trigger register without using the triggers. Play low Bb and bend the note down to F under the stave, the A to E etc. it gets easier as you go down the positions. I found that I drop my jaw slightly in order to get the trigger register to speak and when I do the same slight shift whilst engaging the trigger(s) the sound quality improves. I use this exercise as part of my warm up and warm down routine. I came across this method in a book called circuit training for trombone players by Bart van Lier. I attended a master class with him back in 1996 and the guy could play the entire scale of Bb over two octaves in first position. He was a huge advocate using false notes claiming that the player should control the instrument and not the opposite...... I reckon he is some freak of nature as I've never witnessed anyone doing it since.

The trigger register exercise is possible though!

Good luck!

[JeffBone44]

Like Gabe said, lots of good advice here. From my own experience, I’ve found:

1. Like blast said, people unused to playing bass tend to use an aperture too large and try to push too much air through the horn. Remember that trombones like all instruments are resonators: the lips vibrate the existing air column in the instrument. Using a constant, steady stream of “warm” air through an aperture that is just large enough to produce a loud, resonant, and pleasant buzz produces a louder-sounding note, and a more pleasant-sounding note.

“Warm” air, to my understanding, means a steady stream through a relaxed lower portion of the neck and throat, i.e., from the collarbones on up. The tongue moves up and down according to the register: it helps the air go faster or slower, but the rest of the neck and throat should remain relatively relaxed and supple.

2. Like Gabe, burgerbob, and blast said, use the smallest lip aperture needed to produce the sound, and allow it to be supple enough to get larger (louder) and smaller (softer) as needed. It helps to keep the muscles just under the corners of the mouth firm (not hard) and the bottom lip smooth (not stretched).

3. Like several people have already said: get used to playing in tune in the double-valve register. Try to use a drone more than a tuner. Yes, the positions in the valve and double-valve register are different. Get used to playing them. Simple melodies within the register can help in addition to slurs and flexibilities.

Remember that while you are playing, there are three sources of pitch going simultaneously: your head (“ears”), the lips, and the length of the horn (the air column). They have to be in synch—ALL playing the same pitch at the exact same moment—to produce a beautiful, resonant tone.

1. For years I have been trying to push too much air through the horn. I've just started realizing what happens when I back off - everything becomes easier, and more responsive, and I stop getting blowback on low register notes.

2. I have the tendency to widen my aperture a lot in the low register.

3. Yes, my trigger range intonation could definitely improve. I just downloaded a tuning app that includes a drone.

[bwilliams]

"Use more air" has caused more problems than it has helped.

[Burgerbob]

"Use more air" has caused more problems than it has helped.

Kind of. There are many, many more students out there that are barely funding their instruments than the other way around at the lower level. It's a valid comment... up until a point.

Also, if you have a solid chop setup, it's often a way to make things more consistent if you're having a simple problem with something.

[harrisonreed]

Too many peeps be trying to play with "apples" in their mouth no matter what register they are in. Think "strawberry" in that register. Ask Oystein

[imsevimse]

Lots of good advice here. I would like to point out that you don't have to use a large mouthpiece. I make a 1 1/2g size work down there. The key is developing lip elasticity. Most people start accessing those notes with big contortions and a very open setting. It's a start but not a way forward. Follow previous advice and go for flexibility.

Agreed and I found my Holton 169 works best with a 2G mouthpiece. My raised emboushure reset also works better with a smaller rim. I can use that technique from contra F and lower. Without reset I can reach a contra Eb but then not very loud. I have three notes I can do with both emboushures, (F, E and Eb)

/Tom

[JeffBone44]

Lots of good advice here. I would like to point out that you don't have to use a large mouthpiece. I make a 1 1/2g size work down there. The key is developing lip elasticity. Most people start accessing those notes with big contortions and a very open setting. It's a start but not a way forward. Follow previous advice and go for flexibility.

Agreed and I found my Holton 169 works best with a 2G mouthpiece. My raised emboushure reset also works better with a smaller rim. I can use that technique from contra F and lower. Without reset I can reach a contra Eb but then not very loud. I have three notes I can do with both emboushures, (F, E and Eb)

/Tom

Yes, I agree. Big contortions in the embouchure are inefficient and unreliable.

On bass trombone I can keep the same embouchure and play solid notes down to pedal Ab. G starts to get a little weak, and F# and lower get progressively quieter. I wonder if it would help to play pedal Ab and gliss down a half step to G, and then G to F#, etc.

I just got a new mouthpiece from Doug Elliott, and it's much more efficient than the mouthpieces I was using before.

[hyperbolica]

I don't want to set myself up as giving bass embouchure advice - believe me, you don't want to take that advice from me. I just want to tell a bit about experience I had as a tenor player with low notes years ago. When I was practicing a lot and didn't know any better, I could play a pedal C on my 88h with a 5G mouthpiece, and I could pop between single trigger pedals and high register instantly. At that time I had adjusted my embouchure at my teacher's behest a couple of times, and I was practicing certain stuff.

First, I was playing solos. I think we forget about solos sometimes. They push us in many directions. Keep working on multiple solos that build different skills. Range, legato, speed, trills, flexibility. They force you to apply skills you learn in musical context.

Second, I played a lot of flexibility or interval exercises. I wouldn't let mistakes or cracked notes go by. Memorize them. Play to a metronome, and increase the speed as fast as you can play without mistakes. Make sure the range between consecutive notes is or builds to more than an octave (play a scale, bouncing back to the 5th below between every scale note). And do that chromatically up and down. This helps you avoid getting stuck in the high notes or the low notes. Bass trombone is still a trombone, and you have to be able to play above the staff.

Third for me was lip strength, like general range, trills, lip slurs. Play your Rochut up and down the octave. You always have to apply stuff you learn in real musical context.

For me this stuff didn't happen overnight, but it did happen within the course of a year or two.

The truth about bass trombone for me is that my range is pretty much the same regardless what kind of horn I'm playing, skinny tenor or bass. I just sound better down low on the bigger horn, but I can't play any lower. Most of the other tenor players I play with can pop out a pedal F on command.

I wish I had my chops from back then on the equipment I play now. The difference is 100% practicing the right stuff in the right way, and spending a lot of time in the saddle. Hardware doesn't make it possible, it just helps it sound better.

[Mr412]

Here goes. I'm probably wrong, but it's been working for me. When I engage the trigger for anything from F in T1 on down - I aim a little bit low in the pitch center initially, or at least I think I do. Who really knows what the heck we do when we play. What we think we are doing and what we are actually doing are probably three different things. But anyway, it helps me not whiff on the low trigger notes nearly as much.

It's probably not an ideal mind-set and I probably should follow some of the sage advices posted above, but until I can get my embouchure trained a little better, it's my fix.

[JeffBone44]

At last night's orchestra rehearsal we were rehearsing Dvorak 7, and in the bass trombone part there are some lines that descend into the trigger range. At first I was struggling to play them, as most of the notes were backing up on me and I was getting mostly air instead of sound. In addition, I was losing air really quickly in an effort to get some of the notes to sound. I was really upset and frustrated. When playing by myself I can play these passages with relative ease, so why is it such a struggle with the ensemble? I think because when everybody else is playing, there's a lot of noise around me, and it's harder to hear myself, so I try to play louder to compensate. While the conductor was rehearsing the other sections I had some time to think about what I was doing, and remembering a lot of the advice that I've read here.

1. I probably don't have to play as loud as I think - I was clearly overblowing. Probably blowing air too fast for the low range.

2. Back off on the air - even though it says forte, think mezzo-forte or even mezzo-piano.

3. Keep my embouchure as stable as possible.

I began to notice how much I was tensing up everywhere in my body. I made sure that the next time I played these passages, to relax my neck, shoulders, arms, hands, legs and feet as much as possible. The only part of my body that needed some tension should be the lower corners of my lips.

The next time we went through these passages, most of the notes popped out with relative ease with good volume, and I conserved plenty of air as well. I was amazed and was smiling inside.

[Burgerbob]

The next time we went through these passages, most of the notes popped out with relative ease with good volume, and I conserved plenty of air as well. I was amazed and was smiling inside.

[EriKon]

Too many peeps be trying to play with "apples" in their mouth no matter what register they are in. Think "strawberry" in that register. Ask Oystein

Interesting, I've made the same observation for myself and it has helped me a lot. But some very good bass trombone players teach the exact difference. Ben van Dijk even wrote in his book that he thinks of a hot potato in his mouth. Interesting. It seems to help some people and others get problems due to this advice

[Mr412]

I can't believe there is a panacea. There are too many variables. I do better when I play with commitment and authority in that range, while thinking of hitting just under the pitch center a tiny bit.

I guess it's possible, but I would like to see an explanation of how one uses a small aperture with little air to "peel paint" in the low trigger register notes. I'm here to learn.

[whitbey]

I have a Bach bass from the 60's. The second valve was added just before I bought it in the 70's. It was set up as a dependent Bb/F/E. I had a new tuning slide made with larger tubing in C so now the horn is Bb/F/C. Low C with both valves is in first position and plays very open. Peddle BBb is in a long 3rd and plays easy too. Low B in two trigger long 2nd position is an easy hit. So in the key of C and the sharp keys the horn is easy to play as the positions are close to the same as with the F valve for C, B, Bb, and A.

The larger tubing on the second valve make the horn very a balanced blow all the way down. Since I learned this way, it makes more sense then an independent horn because the sound works easy. And as I play a straight tenor or a single valve tenor, the simplicity of both valves on the bass being mostly 1st, 2nd or 3rd position, playing this horn is just like playing a trombone to me.

When I thought this up many years ago when the closest thing to the internet was a horn catalog or seeing a guy with 3 valves on a bass. Seems like it was Mike Suter and the valves were Bb/F/E/Eb and all 3 D. My logic was C is in 1st with a valve, so C is in first with 2 valves and when the slide goes out the bore is larger. And the Valve tubing is larger. So more tubing must be larger still.

Pics are in my profile.

[JeffBone44]

I’ve been using the new Doug Elliott mouthpiece for almost a month now. It’s an XB112/L8. Much more efficient than what I was using before. Today I plugged in my other mouthpieces that I was using previously, just to see what they were like. They were a Wedge 1G, Greg Black 1 1/4 and Griego .75 Deco. I was gasping for air on all of them! They’re not bad mouthpieces obviously, I’m sure they’d work well for strong, experienced players. Just too big for me to handle. So using mouthpieces that were too big was a big part of my problems. They’re all going back in the drawer and I may end up selling them.

Thanks to everyone who recommended going the Doug Elliott route.

I’m learning that the key to playing trigger notes is a combination of things. Using the right kind of air, not overblowing but still being confident with the air that I use. I also need to be sure that my mouthpiece/embouchure placement is correct for the range that I’m in, and that the right mouthpiece pressure is applied. Not too much or too little, try to find the Goldilocks zone. Finally, I need to do the same low range exercises every day and be patient. Success will not come overnight. It might take many months or even a couple years before I experience substantial improvement. I am noticing small gains after a month, due to the advice I’ve received here, so I believe I’m on the right track.

Also, I’m not trying to articulate notes down there quickly, as in sixteenth notes, because I can’t at this point in time. Rather, I’m focusing on articulating cleanly and getting an immediate, accurate response on individual notes at slower tempos. I think when I can play nearly every note well, I can try to speed it up gradually.

Another thing that I’ve been working on is starting notes without using any tongue. Air attacks are challenging and tiring, and my fail rate in both the low and high registers is high, but it’s teaching me to use air to articulate rather than the tongue. When I do put the tongue back in, everything is a lot easier.

[EriKon]

Just found this thread again after searching and just wanted to mention it's a fantastic thread with lots of wisdom in here. I work a lot on bass trombone atm for a new show that starts over here in about a month. I would say the books is 60-70% btb, the rest tenor and the btb parts are definitely not easy ones but lots of C's, some B's, bit of pedal stuff. In the last few months I've become quite happy with my single trigger register and am now working on the double trigger notes too. I can make them sort of work for the part, but I think I'll try to use some of the advice in here to make them work even better so that I get more safety. And hopefully it will get easier.

I also found that Alan Raph exercise to be helpful for me:

[harrisonreed]

He sounds like he is having a lot of trouble getting those notes to speak.

Getting enough resistance on the bass is so important. People seek "open" equipment, but you need immediate response down there.

[imsevimse]

He sounds like he is having a lot of trouble getting those notes to speak.

Getting enough resistance on the bass is so important. People seek "open" equipment, but you need immediate response down there.

Short articulated 16th notes on the valve is beginning to be hard around that tempo. The aparture needs ro be set but the area that vibrates need to be loose to respond fast. You can not blow the lips apart or it will sound clumsy, they need to be set and ready, thats my experiense and as Burgerbob says in his post a tiny aparture helps. That's a good way to practice short notes.

/Tom

[EriKon]

He sounds like he is having a lot of trouble getting those notes to speak.

Getting enough resistance on the bass is so important. People seek "open" equipment, but you need immediate response down there.

I don't find Duo Gravis horns to be extremely open especially not the rotors. So I don't think that's the problem here.

Around the time of the video he was around 75 years old if I'm not mistaken. I think I'd be happy to play at all at this age if possible lol. Sure there are some people out there nailing with 80+ or even 90+, but probably more the exception than the rule.

[harrisonreed]

He sounds like he is having a lot of trouble getting those notes to speak.

Getting enough resistance on the bass is so important. People seek "open" equipment, but you need immediate response down there.

Short articulated 16th notes on the valve is beginning to be hard around that tempo. The aparture needs ro be set but the area that vibrates need to be loose to respond fast You can not blow the lips apart or it will sound clumsy, they need to be set and ready, thats my experiense and as Burgerbob says in his post a tiny aparture helps. That's a good way to practice short notes.

/Tom

Not just technical passages, even at the beginning, just playing the note to demonstrate a low D, Db, C, B, it didn't speak very well in that vid. Which is what this whole thread is about.

I know of Alan Raph as a a great player, composer, and teacher. That video isn't indicative of what he could do, I think.

[EriKon]

Definitely not his best playing in the video for sure. But the exercise is definitely helpful with the right mindset.

[harrisonreed]

One thing that helped me is starting on, say, an Ab, slurring down with the F valve to the Eb, and then slurring down again to the low C. Letting the chops vibrate, as Aiden suggests, but really focusing in on the feeling of compression of the air. Then slur back up.

There's a few important movements that need to happen with the jaw, tongue, and corners to keep everything connected.

The goal is to be able to hone in on those movements, and use the air to assist them and slur to the next note.

With that mastered, then you can move on to starting the sequence from the Eb, or the C. Rinse and repeat for the same thing, working in half steps away from Ab.

[BGuttman]

Raph proposed this exercise as a warmup. I used to do it for a while. Believe it or not, you do improve in your trigger notes doing this exercise. As a warmup the articulations on the shorter notes can get rather squirrely, but they improve over the course of the exercise and with time.

This really helped when we did Finlandia, with the 5 sixteenth notes on trigger Eb.

[harrisonreed]

Another thing that I've learned, and take it with a grain of salt because it's equipment based advice, but in practice and small rehearsal spaces I will use a lightweight version of my bass mouthpiece. It feels "open" and fills the room with sound, where small rooms usually feel dead and you want to "chop" notes into existence.

In concert and in a large rehearsal space, that setup gives me response issues, being almost too open, so I have a regular blank/weight version of the exact same bass mouthpiece. This setup gives a similar feeling as above, but in the larger rooms where the sound is reflecting back at you. Options are great, especially when you can get the same feeling and response regardless of the room you wind up in.

I feel no shame in thinking "wow, the low C doesn't speak right away here" and trying the other blank, or even taping the shank a bit. It's actually kind of nice to think "Ah well, this isn't really my instrument and I'm not married to it." And that makes it easier to play somehow, with a better result. For me, at least.

[imsevimse]

I feel no shame in thinking "wow, the low C doesn't speak right away here" and trying the other blank, or even taping the shank a bit. It's actually kind of nice to think "Ah well, this isn't really my instrument and I'm not married to it." And that makes it easier to play somehow, with a better result. For me, at least.

To remove pressure can help the playing. If you try too much it isn't effective To back off a bit with air gives a better result. Nervousness has never helped my playing. If you can find ways to be more comfortable and relaxed it is good, whatever thoughts. If it helps then keep it. I've had similar thoughts when I changed carrier. It helped to think that "I get my food on the table and can pay my rents whatever happens on this particular gig because I have anther day job". That kind of thinking made me relax and I started to play better, both on tenor and on bass.
It's related to the question OP had, because you need to back off with air on the lower notes. My loudest isn't very effective so I should not try to impress people with me overblowing my bass trombone in the doubke trigger register. That will be ineffective and not appreciated. Slow air is what gives a good sound in the lower registers.

/Tom

[EZSlider]

Thanks for bumping this up! Great info
EZ

[Sesquitone]

The two most difficult notes for me to play cleanly and loudly are the double valve C and B natural. That makes sense to me - blowing through two valves with the slide extended can't be easy, even with excellent Shires valves. (Yes, I do know that it's me and not the horn!)

Don't rule out entirely problems with your instrument. You mention 'excellent Shires valves'. But 'stuffy and uncentered' could be a result of one or both of the valves being (very slightly) misaligned. It may not be enough to affect slide-alone (or single-valve) tones. So before worrying further about you embouchure, check that both valves are very precisely aligned. What, exactly, is the rest of your equipment? Dependent or independent valves? And how tuned? The bore size of your hand-slide? The bore of the attachment tubing?

You mention that the most troublesome notes are C2 and B1. What about D2 and Db2 at shorter slide positions? Do you have a playable (non-pedal) Bb1 at the end of the slide? How does this respond?

Have you tried the following lip-slurred exercise? All with the slide closed:

Bb2 F2 (pedal)Bb1 F2 Bb1 . . . . and repeat several times (all lip-slurred, down and up) until everything speaks clearly.

Then add in the D2 to make a complete Bb-major triad—down and back up.

If that's all satisfactory, repeat the exercise by planing everything down one position (with correct longer positions for the valved notes, of course): A-major triad.

Then down one more step to Ab-major. Does the C1 still give problems?

Keep going down, making sure the pedal-tones speak clearly.

[JeffBone44]

The two most difficult notes for me to play cleanly and loudly are the double valve C and B natural. That makes sense to me - blowing through two valves with the slide extended can't be easy, even with excellent Shires valves. (Yes, I do know that it's me and not the horn!)

Don't rule out entirely problems with your instrument. You mention 'excellent Shires valves'. But 'stuffy and uncentered' could be a result of one or both of the valves being (very slightly) misaligned. It may not be enough to affect slide-alone (or single-valve) tones. So before worrying further about you embouchure, check that both valves are very precisely aligned. What, exactly, is the rest of your equipment? Dependent or independent valves? And how tuned? The bore size of your hand-slide? The bore of the attachment tubing?

You mention that the most troublesome notes are C2 and B1. What about D2 and Db2 at shorter slide positions? Do you have a playable (non-pedal) Bb1 at the end of the slide? How does this respond?

Have you tried the following lip-slurred exercise? All with the slide closed:

Bb2 F2 (pedal)Bb1 F2 Bb1 . . . . and repeat several times (all lip-slurred, down and up) until everything speaks clearly.

Then add in the D2 to make a complete Bb-major triad—down and back up.

If that's all satisfactory, repeat the exercise by planing everything down one position (with correct longer positions for the valved notes, of course): A-major triad.

Then down one more step to Ab-major. Does the C1 still give problems?

Keep going down, making sure the pedal-tones speak clearly.

This is an old post, from nearly a year and a half ago. I’m doing much better with these notes now.

[JeffBone44]

So my trigger notes are much better now. I do have to warm up for about 10-15 minutes to play the double valve C and B solidly. The more I practice, the less time it will take to get those notes going. I can play them early on in my session with on a 1G size mouthpiece, but my preferred size is more like a 1 1/4, and they begin to pop out nicely after a good warm up session. When I can get to the point where my body feels relaxed, and I blow a lot of air nice and easily, that’s when it works.

[musicofnote]

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