King 4B vs Conn 88H

[BGuttman]

In the 1980s King brought out the Benge line of trombones because the word on the street was that Kings were "too bright" for symphonic work. The Benge was intended to sound more like the popular Conn 88H and Bach 42B horns. Unfortunately they never really caught on. The quality was extremely good. The 170 filled a hole in the King line (between 2B and 3B), the 175 filled a hole in the King line (between 3B and 4B), the 190 was a "symphonic 4B", and the 290 was a larger bass than the 8B.

FWIW, I played a 7B (independent dual inline) for some 40 years in concert band, jazz band, and symphony. I've never had anybody complain that it was too "bright". I did tend to use a relatively large mouthpiece, which would make it less bright.

[GabrielRice]

the 290 was a larger bass than the 8B.

Actually the 8B was enormous, with a very large bell and (I think) oversized valve tubing; the 290 was smaller in both dimensions and feel and generally a better balanced instrument for most situations.

I did hear a story - which may or may not be true - that somewhere along the way of designing the 7B (which was supposed to be the "commercial" instrument) and the 8B (supposed to be "symphonic") the leadpipes got switched, and the 7B ended up with a more open pipe and the 8B a tighter, snappier one.

This was told to me in the context of a friend having to replace the damaged pipe of his 8B with a 290 pipe, which improved the instrument significantly. That friend eventually replaced his 8B with a 290.

[btone]

Who was the horn designer that was responsible for tweaking the 4B design to come up with those Benge tenors? I suppose he based the 290 on the 7b, also. Lots of players seem to think he did a good job. From what I have been told, the rationale was that because of the popularity of the King small bores, many thought of Kings as jazz horns, so the idea was to try to improve upon and then rebrand the large tenors to attract more legit-oriented customers.

[GabrielRice]

Who was the horn designer that was responsible for tweaking the 4B design to come up with those Benge tenors?

I think that was Chuck Ward.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I always assumed that the tuning slides for the King 8B and Benge 290 were identical. I never had the two horns side by side in order to check it.

[JohnL]

I always assumed that the tuning slides for the King 8B and Benge 290 were identical. I never had the two horns side by side in order to check it.

I know for certain that the 290's valve tubing is significantly larger that the 7B's; I tried to fit a 290 valve slide to a 7B once (hoping to get a Bb/F/G/Eb tuning) and it was a no-go.

[greenbean]

I have really enjoyed playing King basses. The 7B and Duo Gravis - love 'em. But I was very disappointed with the two 290's I have played. I pulled one of the leadpipes and it was very short and open. I don't remember what other pipes I used, but they were an improvement. I ended up selling that horn.

[OneTon]

The 4B and 88H each have and have had their place. Composition in the past often exceeded the technical, and in the case of the piano in Beethoven’s time, structural capabilities of available instruments. Someone here may know, but it is quite possible the trombone sections were following the lead of French horns playing Conn 8Ds, whether that started in LA or elsewhere. The 88H was a fit, with a darker sound and a large bore that was large but not squirrelly large. Then we kept getting bigger and darker. And the 4B was a bit of a throwback, moving against the grain. What sounds good to George Szell may not sound good to Fritz Reiner. It gets to be personal. And there is no accounting for tastes.

[GabrielRice]

I think Szell was unusual in dictating so explicitly what instruments he wanted them to play, and Ed Anderson had Bach make the 10.5" bass trombone bell so that Szell would look over and see what he thought was a large German-style bass trombone. I've heard that Zubin Mehta used to vocally prefer the trombone section to play Conns on tenor and a Bach on bass.

Mostly I think conductors leave it up to the players to choose their instruments, and when they express any preference at all I think it goes something like what I've heard Tom Rolfs (Boston principal trumpet) say about James Levine. Levine never told him what instrument to play, but he always seemed happiest with the sounds Tom was making on a particular Mt Vernon Bach 239 C trumpet he had. Which, incidentally, was not necessarily Tom's favorite trumpet to play, but he was willing to do it to keep the boss happy.

[BrianR]

I may be the only one but I would take my old King 4B. Just fit me better than the 88H.