A Warning about Plastic Instruments

[BGuttman]

For those of you who think you can buy a plastic instrument as your only axe.

I have a Cool Winds trombone (has the F-attachment). When I was confined to this nursing home it was the only horn I took (we were worried about some of the residents not treating my instruments with respect). I have been practicing daily on this thing for an hour since May.

The slide is not terribly good; generally kind of resistant. I don't need to hold it to keep the outer on while turning pages, for example. Sound is kinda foggy, but for what I'm doing it's fine. It works much better with a brass mouthpiece than with the plastic one supplied. I'm using a King 29. Sealing is so bad that 7th position (and T6) are unuseable. I play T2 for any E's, B's, etc. My trigger range stops at Db.

There is a slide alignment problem. The lower tube is rubbing on the top of the inner. You can't adjust the plastic inners. At this point the top of the lower inner is worn to shredding for about 3 inches on the top. There is a lot of black goo that is contributing to the bad slide action; probably remnants of the plastic inner and outer slides.

There is no way to replace an inner slide. I'm going to have to replace the entire slide (if possible) or the entire horn.

I had bought the thing to use for Christmas Caroling, and would never have put this many hours on the horn in 10 years under normal conditions, but here we are. If you plan to play one extensively, be warned. They wear out really fast.

I think plastic trombones are fun, but this one has been no substitute for a good brass instrument.

[Clovenhoof81]

I have a Pbone that presents a thin black residue on the lower inner slide after I rinse. I'm hesitant to run a bore brush snake as it might scrape the plastic. I've only been playing it for a couple weeks and it great to learn with. I'm thinking about Conn 6h or King 606 for an upgrade soon

[BGuttman]

You won't do much damage with a brush snake (as long as it's plastic bristles). A cleaning rod with cheesecloth is also OK.

I've also found that UltraPure valve oil applied sparingly and worked in well acts OK as a lubricant (waterless). I really want to find something that binds well to plastic and is hydrophobic so you set up a lube system similar to what we do with metal slides. All the stuff sold for trombones don't do this. And water alone doesn't work well.

[mcphatty00]

I've got a pBone that only gets used outside and very rarely even at that.

[timothy42b]

You can slightly adjust the inners with heat. I can't remember if it was with hot water or a hair dryer, one of the other forum members is an expert.

The thing you need to do is keep the brass stockings from corroding and that means keeping them polished and coated with car wax.

[BGuttman]

No brass stockings on this horn. I made some stockings of packing tape, but the tape degraded and I peeled them back off. Seal is pretty crummy. Maybe I should try using shrink tubing to make stockings.

[robcat2075]

Bruce, I'm sorry you have to live in an environment where your personal property is not safe. That is a very disappointing situation.

[BGuttman]

Bruce, I'm sorry you have to live in an environment where your personal property is not safe. That is a very disappointing situation.

We have people with memory issues and they wander around and "borrow" stuff.

I have to practice outdoors so as not to disturb people, but we have a nice tent outside and I found a time it's pretty empty. I may be asked to play a little concert at some point. I already did Taps for Memorial Day. My problem is that I have a lot of Fake Books in C Treble Clef, and my C Treble Clef reading was not good before and has gotten worse.

[robcat2075]

How about a case with a lock and a loop to chain it the bed post?

[imsevimse]

For those of you who think you can buy a plastic instrument as your only axe.

I have a Cool Winds trombone (has the F-attachment). When I was confined to this nursing home it was the only horn I took
...
I think plastic trombones are fun, but this one has been no substitute for a good brass instrument.

Hi Bruce. Hope you can come home soon to play your real brass instruments again.

Yes, the plastic trombones is not as fun to practice as a brass instrument but they sound okay. I have a blue pBone. I haven't used it very much but once brought it to a garden party where we played brass quintet outside and I recorded most of what we played. From the recording it sounded as usual, but I did feel as a player the feedback from the instrument was very different and it does not sound the same behind the bell as a brass instrument at all, but I guess from a distance those things fade away. I brought the trombone to a big band rehearsal once and noone noticed. I didn't say anything to saxes that sat in front of us and when they saw the trombone in the pause they thought it locked cool, but had not heard anything strange from my playing. This doesn't really prove much. It could also be that the saxes never listen to anything in the band except their own playing but to me it meant that many things we our self think is VERY important might not be important at all to others, and others are usually also an audience so...I don't know

It's important to us to play an instrument we like and when we do we probably play better. One thing that become very apparent to me when I played my plastic horn is they can not hear it is plastic.

I haven't tried a "Cool Winds trombone" with valve, but I guess it is about the same quality as my phone.

By the way I had to glue my trombone slide together just after a week of playing Good thing is I could do it myself. It worked after that. It is not very smooth but it is an okay slide. I guess it will not be playable for 100 years like a brass instrument. Maybe next time I play a fortissimo it will blast into pieces. It is a cool toy.

/Tom

[BGuttman]

Thanks for the comments, Tom. I also had to do some repairs on the Cool Wind. It had a bad leak in one of the joints in the bell stem. I never thought that would be a problem until I felt air blowing on my ear I was able to use Gorilla Glue as a filler and the leak was fixed (and the sound improved dramatically). The valve lever was very stiff but it got better with use and application of valve oil to the bearings and linkages.

I would put this instrument above the real bottom of the barrel instruments from China or India, but below the better student instruments (Yamaha 3xx series). It has some advantages (slide is un-dentable) and has a cool appearance. As I mentioned, I had planned to use it for Christmas concerts and outdoors in the cold.

[seabrook2022]

Just got a mini pBone yesterday. Sound is good so far and I don't mind the slide noise.
I like the lightness of it. Not a replacement for my 3B, just added skill.
Working on F at the moment which is where C is on Tenor, so trying to read up
to speed messes up my mind a bit.
I'd welcome any hints for keeping my head straight.
Dick S.

[BGuttman]

The Mini pBone is an alto trombone. Find an alto trombone manual. Harrison Reed shared his at one point. If you can't find it, message him (but you are going to need 2 more approved posts to get to him). If he's OK with it, I can forward you a digital copy.

[jcmiller]

I tried the Allora Aere in 2020. Could not find a way to make the slide move fast enough. I kept the brass stockings polished. I tried several approached to slide maintenance: no treatment, valve oil, Slide-O-Mix, and plain water. The slide would move well at first with each treatment but then get buggered up during a performance. Finally gave up and hung it on the wall.

[whitbey]

I have a couple Pbones. One for a 5 year old grandson. I bough a couple for $50 on close out a few years ago.
I use them at open houses when or anywhere I am worried about the good horns. I keep one in the back of my pick up.
Much of the sound returns to the player on a pbone. So practice on one can reveal things you want to improve.
Ribbon epoxy is good to do many repairs.
Plastic has it's place. Just not a lot of places.

[seabrook2022]

Pulled out the pBone at practice and quickly became a laughing stock but I don't mind. Working on F and Bb mostly.

[Leanit]

Plastic trombones = rubbish
Carbon trombones = expensive rubbish

[BGuttman]

Plastic trombones = rubbish
Carbon trombones = expensive rubbish

I think that's a little harsh. I wouldn't trade my nice brass Yamaha 682 for a plastic equivalent, but the plastic horn plays better than some of the cheap Chinese or Indian junk out there. And the plastic has some advantages. It's very difficult to dent the slide, it is very lightweight for those with musculature problems, and it looks very showy.

[Matt K]

Doug Yeo doesn't seem to thimnk that Carbon Fiber is rubbish.

[elmsandr]

Plastic trombones = rubbish
Carbon trombones = expensive rubbish

Nah. The carbon fiber ones are OK… but they require you to be on your A game with your own inputs. If you aren’t playing with good intent, the horn won’t help you as much. Sound is good/very good IF AND ONLY IF you put a good resonant buzz into it. If you try to start with a weaker buzz, it will sound like a plastic horn.

Cheers,
Andy

[Leanit]

I play with a local pro who is a carbon fan (bell & slide). He's a spectacular player, but when he's on lead in a 4-bone section, the carbon horn just doesn't have the projection we need to hear to lock in together. Sitting 2nd in a 2-1-3-4 section order, I can hear the 3rd player better. If he brings a brass horn, we're in business. I don't have the heart to tell him.
I know carbon is cool and light and looks evil, but when you're paid to do a job, you need to consider the outward result pretty high up the list. Maybe even above looking cool.

(Yes, "rubbish" was being provocative.)

[BGuttman]

I haven't played my plastic trombone in a section -- I've been mostly playing for myself and practicing (we don't have any kind of ensemble here at the nursing home ). My main beef is the fact that the slide is wearing out rather quickly (and there's no way to fix it). My wife brought me one of my brass instruments and the difference has been noticeable! And it's not a really top level horn (Holton TR-680). The Holton is much heavier, but that's not a problem for me -- my arms are OK, just my legs are bad. And there are some folks here who seem to enjoy listening to me practice (!).

[imsevimse]

And there are some folks here who seem to enjoy listening to me practice (!).

Great!!! Hope you will recover soon.

/Tom

[robcat2075]

...
I know carbon is cool and light and looks evil, but when you're paid to do a job, you need to consider the outward result pretty high up the list. Maybe even above looking cool.

But maybe looking cool wasn't his calculation. Maybe there is some element of it that works better for him in the playing.

[baBposaune]

Doug Yeo doesn't seem to thimnk that Carbon Fiber is rubbish.

Doug is the reason I had a horn put together with carbon fiber bell and outer slide. He sounds fine on his Yamaha conversion so I had high confidence that this works. I like the way my Butler bell and slide play. Very even. My inner handslide and valve section are a Bach 50B2O that I purchased from Jim Bermann and the bell is detachable so if I want, I can use a brass bell. Also, I have the brass outer slide but usually don't use it.

One thing I've noticed after playing this set-up for nearly two years, it projects better with a Sauer Brace installed at the end bow. Hardly adds any weight but makes a difference. The ease of holding the horn coupled with a decent sound make it worth it for me at least. I have recorded myself on a Zoom digital recorder and I'm happy with the sound of the CF. The main point is that my left hand, wrist and arm don't get tired even after a 2 hour rehearsal, with the horn on my face 80% of the time.

I have never heard anyone sound good on a plastic trombone, but they have their place for practice while travelling, etc. Last time someone used a P-Bone in a brass quartet I was in could not blend or play in tune. Not a fan of plastic. I am a fan of carbon fiber. Yes, input does matter and I am mindful of that when I play. Don't know about projection in the upper register on a small bore tenor but CF seems to work fine for me on bass trombone.

[officermayo]

I occasionally bring my pBone to big band rehearsal to break up the monotony of going over the same charts (community band of senior citizens). The lead bone is a music college professor. I asked for his honest opinion of the sound I get from the pBone. He said there was not enough difference to matter. So, either my pBone sounds good or I suck no matter which horn from my stable is being utilized.

[BGuttman]

I occasionally bring my pBone to big band rehearsal to break up the monotony of going over the same charts (community band of senior citizens). The lead bone is a music college professor. I asked for his honest opinion of the sound I get from the pBone. He said there was not enough difference to matter. So, either my pBone sounds good or I suck no matter which horn from my stable is being utilized.

The popular plastic instruments don't sound bad. But they don't sound good enough to win you an audition at the Boston Symphony either. The material makes for a less powerful sound, though. I'd hate to try to use one on a Salsa gig where loud is more important than anything else.

I just wanted to warn people of my experience if they think a plastic instrument can be used as a "daily driver".

[Finetales]

pBones are great for a lot of things brass trombones are not, and vice versa. There's not a lot of overlap.

[officermayo]

There's not a lot of overlap.

Apparently you've not looked at my avatar very closely. There is indeed overlap.

[JCBone]

I have a pbone. It's pretty much unplayable due to the awful slide. Ocassionally I use if I'm on a trip and want to do more then buzzing but don't want to bring my big horn. Would never consider playing it in a serious context.

[Finetales]

There's not a lot of overlap.

Apparently you've not looked at my avatar very closely. There is indeed overlap.

I didn't say there was NO overlap, just not very much. You can certainly use a pBone in certain musical endeavors, but it excels most as a travel horn, dangerous gig beater, trombone you can give a wild paint job, and underwater tomfoolery enabler. A typical brass trombone does not excel at any of those (except the dangerous gig beater, if it's old and tough enough like an Ambassador).

[officermayo]

Finetales, It was a joke about by GUT.

[whitbey]

I use my PBone to practice at open houses. I am a realtor. I find a lot of sound returns to you from the back of the bell. So I hear things good and bad that I did not notice on my real horns.

I have fixed sound issues I heard Sunday afternoon on the PBone. Went home, listened for them on the real horn and changed something and the issue went away. It was like having a mini plastic Doug Elliot bobble doll.

[Matt K]

Aghh this reminds me that I have a pBone bell I've been meaning to adapt to a brass bell section...

[whitbey]

I think the PBone people should consider making a buccin Dragon PBone.

[Finetales]

I just want a straight F bass pBone.