Changing bore sizes

[LoremIpsum]

For the past couple of decades I have been using a large bore instrument for almost all of my tenor playing - I cannot remember the exact sizes but it is ~0.552". It is a lovely setup, but I am thinking about using a smaller bore instrument for a bit to see how it fits with the groups I play in. That might be a subtle change, like a Conn 88H, or it could be heading off towards actual medium and small bores. Because my instrument is large for a tenor trombone, I would like to double check some things from a playing (not output) perspective rather than just diving in:

How much of a difference is there in playing instruments of different bore sizes over an extended time? Does the bore size cause significant changes or are they relatively small when compared to other characteristics of the instrument?
How much playing time is required when reverting back to a larger bore instrument to regain breath/range?
Do people who switch between bore sizes aim to maintain their playing on all the sizes or do they "pick up and play" instruments away from their usual bore size?

I should say that nowadays I am a hobbyist who mainly plays once or twice a week - good enough to play the first parts/solos but not a pro. Work and willpower means that I do not have the time to repair the playing on my current setup if it gets overly affected by any changes; a few hours re-calibration would be fine but several weeks of consistent playing would not. Also, the above questions are really about the bore size - assume no issues with switching mouthpiece sizes etc..

Many thanks.

[ithinknot]

How different? "Some" - there are many variables, not least what you're used to, and how flexible you are.

In your 'Stable' listing you have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial Bb/F and a Besson 10-10. Based on what you say above, I guess the Imperial is the .555" model (considered a bass at the time of its introduction). Large shank mouthpieces.

The Besson 10-10 is a .523, taking small shank mpcs. (There was also a .523 B&H Imperial that was essentially the same instrument as the Besson 10-10, with or without a valve.)

So, how different do you find those two? The 10-10 is roughly in the middle of how a medium bore can feel; the bell and tuning slide tapers are in the same general ballpark as a Bach 36 or 42, though the narrow slide keeps things feeling slightly more compact.

Based on what you say about time and willingness to adapt, I wouldn't go down to ≤.509 territory - that's "definitely different".

[hyperbolica]

If your new horn is say 525 bore, the change will be small but noticeable. If you change to 484 your breathing and articulation will change when switching in either direction. Still, it should only take a couple of hours to get reacclimated.

The big thing will be switching mouthpieces. It used to take a week for me to change mouthpiece. But now I have a setup where all my tenor rims are the same size, and cups/shanks change to fit different instruments. I use Doug Elliott mouthpieces to do that. .

[harrisonreed]

I used to have a huge problem switching between horns, but that was back when:

1. I played with my "head voice" instead of my "chest voice" -- chops vs. air
2. I had mouthpieces that didn't fit my face
3. I tried to play with way too open a jaw and tongue position.

Once I got over all these hurdles, switching to even alto or bass is easy. Blow and go, so to speak.

[Chatname]

“How much of a difference is there in playing instruments of different bore sizes over an extended time?
Does the bore size cause significant changes or are they relatively small when compared to other characteristics of the instrument?”

Usually the mouthpiece change is more significant technically then the bore change.

“How much playing time is required when reverting back to a larger bore instrument to regain breath/range?”

Depends, this is individual. If your combination of mouthpieces and instruments works well for you and you have a flexible attitude it should be very little time.

“Do people who switch between bore sizes aim to maintain their playing on all the sizes or do they "pick up and play" instruments away from their usual bore size?”

People do this differently. Some just pick up and play. Personally I usually practice on two mouthpieces and two different bores daily, when possible. (Alto/tenor or large/medium or large/small, for example).
But it’s not necessary. Just something I enjoy doing.

Combining different mouthpieces and bores is not difficult for most people.

[ithinknot]

To be clear, *once you know your way around a given size*, 'acclimation time' might be zero.

But that's not the same as the time it takes to learn a significantly different style of instrument in the first place.

[dbwhitaker]

The Besson 10-10 is a .523, taking small shank mpcs. (There was also a .523 B&H Imperial that was essentially the same instrument as the Besson 10-10, with or without a valve.)

I don't know what model the OP has but Besson also made a 10-10 bass trombone (I have one) that is listed as .555 bore in the 1958 catalog.

[LoremIpsum]

Hello all,

The guesses were correct - the Imperial is the old Bb/F bass trombone and the 10-10 is the medium bore version rather than the bass. As an aside, my Imperial is a very nice instrument to play tenor parts on, even if it is a little worn these days.

The 10-10 was mainly a backup instrument during university and has been used very sparingly since, either when accompanying small groups or in situations where I did not want to risk the Imperial. Moving to the medium bore instrument has never been too bad but I was worried about moving back to the large bore after more extended playing. Looking through the advice, I think that it is safe enough, even with my relatively low amount of playing these days.

Thank you ever so much for the helpful responses.

[OneTon]

Most lay persons can read a legal document, know most of the definitions for the words used, and have an understanding of the document. Impacts and unintended consequences may be missed due to not knowing the code of law, which an attorney learns in school and demonstrates during a test to determine if they can practice before the bar. The answer to your question is yes and no, and may have dependency on how long a player has been in larger bore instruments with appropriate mouthpieces.

The worst case scenario is perhaps going from super human (Holton) tenors less than or equal to 0.562 inches or bass trombones, to King 2B or Bach LT6 small bore trombones at average bore diameters of 0.485 inches. Lesser leaps may not feel any different. Typically they are not as stark.

Coarse errors of disappointing attacks and the like should be overcome relatively quickly in one rehearsal or one week and not more than a month. What I call, “dialing in the horn” could take 6 months or a year. These are much more subtle and more evident to me than a listener. Had I tried a King 2B before I spent some time on other like bored horns I might of thought meh and moved on. It took almost that long for me to have hair tingling moments on my first Conn 88H. My King 2B is still teaching me how to play trombone and I may get yet another 88H before it is over.

Most studio players, the wrecking crew, and other top end players have achieved fluidity and can probably move from one instrument to another seamlessly. They have paid a lot of dues. Before COVID I was transitioning between small bore tenor and bass multiple times a day. Now it is not quite seamless. I did pick up a Conn 79H and had it dialed in in about 3 rehearsals after playing a King 2B for three years. Hope that helps.

[imsevimse]

As a collector I change both horns and mouthpieces a lot, from alto to bass and play many variances of boresizes because tenors differs as well as altos and basses too.

To make best use of another boresize you probably need to change your mouthpiece too. One thing you could do is have the same mouthpiece with small and large shank, it will make the transition between boresizes easier. Next is you could have the same rims on different cups and different backbores, that is probably what most do because the reason you switch is probably you need to fit a different role or different context. You could do this just with mouthpiece changes too and use the same trombone for different roles and contexts, but if a more obvious change is what you need then you could change boresize too. You probably want it to sound a lot different, lets say the difference between first trombone in a big band and third trombone in a symphony orchestra. That is two very different roles and also very different contexts.

What is the difference? Well, in the beginning I suppose you will feel it takes more air as you go bigger and less if you go the opposite. When you've learned to switch you might think of it different. Generally a larger bore and larger mouthpiece do suck more air until you have adopted. Generally it also takes some time to find the pitch centre in a new horn mouthpiece combination after a switch but, when youve learned that switch and if you do it often it gets faster to adopt. You also learn to use the air better as you adopt, that's when you do not think the larger instrument sucks all air. It's simple, you need to breath more often on a bass and when youve learned that it becomes automatic. That's my experience.

If you also change rimsize you will need to adopt to that too. Some do not want to go that path. Personally it's what I do. I remember back in the 80ies I couldn't do it. Bach then I felt my face only could play one rim, the one I currently played. If I changed rim it took weeks to get used to the new one. I leave it by now and just say that everything can be learned if you spend the time and if you are determined enough.

My experience is I need to practice every size of horn and every size of mouthpiece I need to play regularly. I can pick up and play any combination of horn right away without preparation but the quirks needs to be investigated and adjusted to if I want to sound my best and that is why I need practice all horns and also all switches.

/Tom