Teaching the Gb valve

[BigBadandBass]

Teachers and Trombonists, I am curious, how do you go about teaching the second valve and valves in general? I've been auditioning for various graduate programs and during the process have taken a few lessons with many different teachers and have gotten so many opinions on it and am curious how to go about teaching its use?

As someone who learned first on dependant and then moved to independent at the end of high school I at first barely used the Gb side but now use it more so than the F, for everything from the low Eb to middle of the staff Db depending on the scenario and in almost every lesson I've had there's been a comment about the constant use of my valves. The overarching comment usually is "yeah you sound good, but you use the valve a lot" and I wonder, at what point for you all is their too much use of the valve. Personally I see it as a way to get around large slide movements (Bb triad in the beginning of creation) or avoiding slide slop (playing the occasional Gb or Db in the Rhenish) and that if done well and practiced, is audibly the same as no valve (my teacher and I tried this a few years back where we would record exercises valved a lot and little and tried to discern them blindly, and couldn't).

I'm sure this isn't the first time someone has asked, so if there's an older thread about this I'd love to read it

[harrisonreed]

I learned more about how to use the valve in the Brad Edwards lip slurs book than I could have on my own. And a lot of it was inaccessible because I don't play bass

[Burgerbob]

If it sounds good, it sounds good.

I personally use the Gb to stay near the middle of the slide more, rather than 1st (though I will play an occasional Db or Gb).

[marccromme]

Caveat: I am not teaching, and I am not living from my music, so, take MHO with a grain of salt.

I am using the Gb side as often, if not more often than the F side. Choosing from 2 to 4 different possibilities for the same time was a major headache a couple of years ago, but comes quite naturally now.

IMHO there are three different requirements which need judgement to balance the right way.

1) static requirement: play a note at the position and valve combination where it sounds best, this will often, but not always be open position on my bones. Pedal F for example is best on the Gb valve on my Conn, low D is equally good on F or Gb valve on my horn. I practice to hit the same note on different positions and valve combinations, trying to get intonation and quality good on all.

2) dynamic requirement: smooth and slick slide movement may require unusual positions or valve combinations. I practice scales, triads, licks, whatever with different positions and valves, until I have found the one or two that give smoothest slide movement.

3) soft tissue requirements: if I can't get the smoothest slide motion into my head, cause it causes too award valve patterns, or too tricky fine-tuning with the slide, I choose another one.

The weighting depends on the musical context, then.

If I have plenty of time, breaks, staccato at low speed, I choose 1)

If I need to play fast, or a super thight legato, I choose 2)

If I want total smooth slurs, I might use a more tricky pattern to get the aid of a valve shift

Usually, balancing 1) against 2) and avoiding 3) makes for only one slide and valve pattern at the end. And I'll stick to that one there, and practice until it works.

Pattern recognition in different scales makes it more intuitive to choose now than a couple of years ago. This analysis might help you?

[Kbiggs]

Caveat: I am not teaching, and I am not living from my music, so, take MHO with a grain of salt.

I am using the Gb side as often, if not more often than the F side. Choosing from 2 to 4 different possibilities for the same time was a major headache a couple of years ago, but comes quite naturally now.

IMHO there are three different requirements which need judgement to balance the right way.

1) static requirement: play a note at the position and valve combination where it sounds best, this will often, but not always be open position on my bones. Pedal F for example is best on the Gb valve on my Conn, low D is equally good on F or Gb valve on my horn. I practice to hit the same note on different positions and valve combinations, trying to get intonation and quality good on all.

2) dynamic requirement: smooth and slick slide movement may require unusual positions or valve combinations. I practice scales, triads, licks, whatever with different positions and valves, until I have found the one or two that give smoothest slide movement.

3) soft tissue requirements: if I can't get the smoothest slide motion into my head, cause it causes too award valve patterns, or too tricky fine-tuning with the slide, I choose another one.

The weighting depends on the musical context, then.

If I have plenty of time, breaks, staccato at low speed, I choose 1)

If I need to play fast, or a super thight legato, I choose 2)

If I want total smooth slurs, I might use a more tricky pattern to get the aid of a valve shift

Usually, balancing 1) against 2) and avoiding 3) makes for only one slide and valve pattern at the end. And I'll stick to that one there, and practice until it works.

Pattern recognition in different scales makes it more intuitive to choose now than a couple of years ago. This analysis might help you?

I like this analysis of how to use alternate positions. It fits very much with how I approach bass trombone and alternate positions. I am not teaching at present, either, FWIW. I also use the Gb valve a lot within the staff, and often prefer it for low F because on my horn I like the way it responds better.

As to how to go about getting a uniform sound between the different valve and slide combinations, I found that using something like Paul Faulise’s book on the F and D trombone and adapting it to independent valves works really well. Practice Faulise’s (or any) exercises with all possible valve and slide combinations. Strive for a sound that is as close to the open horn as possible. Scales, long tones and slurs using the different combinations also helps. Other books like Ostrander, Gillis, etc.,

For example, if I’m playing a slur from B to D in the bass clef staff, I will practice it: V1-4, V2-4, 7-4, V1-VV, and V2-VV. That’s all the combinations. Obviously, some will not sound as good as others because of the addition of tubing and where the note lies in the overtone series. But being curious about how to make the best sound for each combination is the best way to gain familiarity with the horn, and develop the best sound for each combination. Besides, you never know when a strange passage might work best with an unusual valve-slide combination.

[BigBadandBass]

I found that using something like Paul Faulise’s book on the F and D trombone and adapting it to independent valves works really well. Practice Faulise’s (or any) exercises with all possible valve and slide combinations. Strive for a sound that is as close to the open horn as possible. Scales, long tones and slurs using the different combinations also helps. Other books like Ostrander, Gillis, etc.,

Yeah! The faulise was my valve education at the very start of college and that book and scales were the way I learnt the meat and potatoes of the valve. I guess my other real question is peoples views and using the valve for more than F, C, B and E. Like at what point to we become euphoniums that sound like trombones, and is that rampant valve use a bad thing?

[BGuttman]

Rampant valve use is not a bad thing. I use the Gb valve by itself a lot. There is a lick in Waltz of the Flowers where there is a chromatic line from A to C# that I just play on the Gb valve. Less to think about.

I play the F valve out to A and sometimes even to Ab when it makes slide movement easier. Bb in F trigger 3 is an incredibly useful note.

[brassmedic]

A Bb triad is a "large slide movement "? Oh, all the way out to 4th, so far. At some point don't you have to say, why don't you just play valve trombone then?

[harrisonreed]

I mean...

[hyperbolica]

... I guess my other real question is peoples views and using the valve for more than F, C, B and E. Like at what point to we become euphoniums that sound like trombones, and is that rampant valve use a bad thing?

I think using valves to get natural breaks instead of big smeary slidey notes is a good thing. John Swallow (among several others) taught a method of playing tenor where you wouldn't gliss more than 2 positions - when the note and the slide go in the same direction. You had to find a note in another partial to lip slur across a natural break. You learned a lot of alternate positions, and did a lot of lip slurring.

If you extend this philosophy to 2V bass, the possibilities are endless. Of course you have to get past the bass player's fear of positions 5, 6 and 7. I already started doing this with a single trigger down low, but there aren't that many options - Bb in b3, A in b4, etc. Higher partials with the trigger don't make much sense because they overlap or nearly overlap with lower open better sounding partials. But when you add the second valve on an indy bass, that opens a lot of possibilities. Db and Gb in b1st have already been mentioned, and you go down from there. It takes some time to develop the left hand dexterity - not to mention the mental flexibility - to really make use of independent valves.

Bass bone players often get lazy or afraid of the slide. Trombone players in general are sometimes afraid of alternate positions. Not to encourage either of those tendencies, but I would say as long as you can get a good tone and good intonation, use the valves (and the slide) to your benefit, especially to avoid big slide movements, especially when the note and the slide go in the same direction.

For example Bb to Gb is a big sloppy gliss when you go 1 to 5. But 1 to b1 on the 2v gives you a natural break, and gets rid of the sloppy gliss. It can get to be a lot of mental gymnastics, but it's well worth it. Bass trombone suddenly becomes an instrument you can get around on more quickly. Start using this kind of thinking in moving lines, and it really opens up what kind of stuff you can make sound good. I'm kind of surprised more people aren't teaching this method.

To me, this makes bass trombone a much more interesting instrument to play, and removes a lot of the commonly perceived limitations. Every time I come up against a tricky lick on bass bone, I look at the second valve and see if I can get some economy of motion.

[marccromme]

A Bb triad is a "large slide movement "? Oh, all the way out to 4th, so far. At some point don't you have to say, why don't you just play valve trombone then?

Not constructive comment at all.

A valve trombone sounds like a valve trombone, because the bore of the valves is smaller than on a bass bone, and most valve combinations are out if tune and need lipping out of center.

Intelligent use of two valves on a bass bone has not these limitations, the valves are more open, and the slide is there for fine tuning.

Hence it sound like a trombone should.

A couple of my amateur colleagues complain over the sound and stuffiness of alternative positions and valve combinations, only because their slide position is wrong, and lipping occurs.

Then it sounds bad, admitted.

But hitting the right alternative positions and valve combinations spot on for a given time makes a huge difference for smooth slide operation, hence undisturbed embouchure and air flow, and the overall presentation can be much better then a more conservative choice.

People coming with this valve trombone argument are often those who did not use enough time to study alternative valve combinations, at least that is what I see around me in amateur bands.

The re are purists who can play very smooth with conservative choices, but there are also many who would benefit studying odd combinations.

Aronari book on bass bone, both the school and the rythmical book, where a big eye opener for me. Mucho good stuff there

[brassmedic]

A Bb triad is a "large slide movement "? Oh, all the way out to 4th, so far. At some point don't you have to say, why don't you just play valve trombone then?

Not constructive comment at all.

A valve trombone sounds like a valve trombone, because the bore of the valves is smaller than on a bass bone, and most valve combinations are out if tune and need lipping out of center.

Intelligent use of two valves on a bass bone has not these limitations, the valves are more open, and the slide is there for fine tuning.

Hence it sound like a trombone should.

A couple of my amateur colleagues complain over the sound and stuffiness of alternative positions and valve combinations, only because their slide position is wrong, and lipping occurs.

Then it sounds bad, admitted.

But hitting the right alternative positions and valve combinations spot on for a given time makes a huge difference for smooth slide operation, hence undisturbed embouchure and air flow, and the overall presentation can be much better then a more conservative choice.

People coming with this valve trombone argument are often those who did not use enough time to study alternative valve combinations, at least that is what I see around me in amateur bands.

The re are purists who can play very smooth with conservative choices, but there are also many who would benefit studying odd combinations.

Aronari book on bass bone, both the school and the rythmical book, where a big eye opener for me. Mucho good stuff there

While you may be speaking for amateur players, I am speaking as a professional, and in my opinion, if you need to use the valve as a crutch to execute a simple Bb arpeggio in the staff, your time might be better spent on slide technique. Lots of things where alternate positions with or without valves are called for. I don't think that's one of them.

[BigBadandBass]

if you need to use the valve as a crutch to execute a simple Bb arpeggio in the staff, your time might be better spent on slide technique. Lots of things where alternate positions with or without valves are called for. I don't think that's one of them.

Yeah.. that's probably a bad example. I think my thinking behind it was seeing Paul Pollard do it with the G and Blair possibly talking about it in his book (don't have those resources with me to confirm). But I guess I wonder why the G and Bollinger tuning seem to be presented as alternate city and the Gb tuning as a suburb in F or D town.

[brassmedic]

if you need to use the valve as a crutch to execute a simple Bb arpeggio in the staff, your time might be better spent on slide technique. Lots of things where alternate positions with or without valves are called for. I don't think that's one of them.

Yeah.. that's probably a bad example. I think my thinking behind it was seeing Paul Pollard do it with the G and Blair possibly talking about it in his book (don't have those resources with me to confirm). But I guess I wonder why the G and Bollinger tuning seem to be presented as alternate city and the Gb tuning as a suburb in F or D town.

OK, fair enough. And sorry my post sounded snarky and/or not constructive. I think a better way I could have phrased it is, I don't think EVERY challenge is best solved with the valves. A great deal can be accomplished with the slide, and if done well, isn't inferior in any way.

[BGuttman]

Playing long tones and arpeggios in the outer trigger positions has helped me sound better on more conventional positions. I doubt I'd ever play A at the top of the bass staff with both triggers, but if I can make it sound good I will find that A in 2nd position sounds great.

[Backbone]

I mean...

Example of Bass valve technques that make harder phrases possible (Dr, Reginald Chapman):
Transcription:

Performance:

[harrisonreed]

I mean...

Example of Bass valve technques that make harder phrases possible (Dr, Reginald Chapman):
Transcription:

Performance:

Why resurrect this ancient thread by quoting me clowning on valves?

I love that excerpt, and have played that piece and that solo on tenor all over Korea. Only one valve required. If you want the B naturals instead of other notes in the chord, yeah you need a different valve.

I was just trying to show that you don't need to stop at just two. Go and get three or six.

[Backbone]

Why resurrect this ancient thread by quoting me clowning on valves?

I love that excerpt, and have played that piece and that solo on tenor all over Korea. Only one valve required. If you want the B naturals instead of other notes in the chord, yeah you need a different valve.

I was just trying to show that you don't need to stop at just two. Go and get three or six.

I have been thinking on my valve choices big time lately and somehow saw this thread. Thought it was interesting and saw your post. Thought you were showing that valve choices can be a good thing. I was just adding to that.

[Lamplighter]

As an amateur who picked up a bass trombone for the first time a month ago, I have found this thread both very useful and intimidating at the same time. I hadn't played since early 2020 and before that in spurts. Practice time was very limited (12-14 work days) with amateur big band gigs (3rd) sporadically.

I'm now retired and am going to attempt the bass book in an amateur group, having moved after retirement. I have a single valve bass, thinking it wouldn't be a big loss if it didn't work out, but now I'm questioning that decision. In trying to prove that an old dog can learn new tricks, I'm finding the neural connections between the brain and my right hand and left thumb don't work as quickly as I would like! Playing scales and exercises is no problem. Playing real charts at speed is another issue, though slowly getting better.

My instructor says I'm making good progress. We're working on some of the more difficult sections of some of the charts, and I feel I will be capable of doing this. Am I better off getting an independent 2v horn and learning both at the same time, or sticking with what I have and adding the second valve after the F valve becomes second nature. I played a small bore tenor and had never used an F att until a month ago.

[BGuttman]

The first thing you will find useful on a double in Bb/F/Gb/D is that low C is located where Bb side 4th position is, and low B natural is between Bb side 5th and 6th positions. You can forget about using the rest of the 2nd valve for now. Get comfortable with a Bb/F instrument and use the 2nd valve for 2 notes if you suddenly have to play them. Once you are comfortable with this setup, you can start exploring using the Gb valve alone or other positions with both valves. Probably the first excursion will be D in 1st, followed by Db in 2nd (with 2 valves). Look for a good method for double valve bass. I used Raph, but there are now some others that are very good as well.

[GGJazz]

Hello everyone.
My name is Giancarlo Giannini , jazz bass trbn player from Italy . I am new here !

I would like to share my personal opinion about the tuning of the Gb valve .

If we want to play a low D under the staff , we add the F valve and we put the slide in #5th position (considering the regular Bb horn positions ) . If we put the slide in a perfect 5th position , this D will be very flat .
So , to me , this means that , in a independent valves horn , if we want to play a really in tune D , in 1st position with both valves , we have to add to the F valve a #Gb tuned second valve ( equivalent to a #5th position) .

To play a right in tune Gb (Db , ecc) with the second valve , we have to play it in b1st position ; F (C , ecc) in bb2nd position , ecc . This will result in a further new slide positions when #Gb valve will be added alone (different from the F valve positions , from the D two valves positions , and from the open horn positions ) .

Of course , this have nothing to do with the B. Bollinger tuning system , that is conceived to have some positions that match between open horn and second valve .

So , to me , the series of tuning could be Bb /F / #Gb / D .

This is my thougth , of course !

Regards to everyone
Giancarlo

[MTbassbone]

I am not a teacher, but I recommend trying a method book such as the Raph or Aharoni. Then practice reading music in bass and tenor clef 8vb. You can use tenor clef to transpose Bordogni melodies into other keys and play Bb trumpet etude books (with key alterations). The Sachse 100 Studies for trumpet are particularly nice IMHO. Its nice to stretch out the usefulness of etudes and also stretch the brain. Bass lines from jazz standards can be fun too and it adds some variety.