Simone Mantia Met section equipment

[Chatname]

I am curious to which instruments the Met opera section would have been using during Simone Mantia’s tenure, together with his colleagues Otto Gebhardt, Simone Belgiorno amongst others, starting with Mahler and Toscanini as music directors.
Mantia was playing at the Met 1908-1925 I believe, thereafter he was managing the orchestra for twelve years. During this period two Puccini masterpieces were premiered: Fanciulla and Il Trittico. Both include four trombones. Does anyone know which instruments they would have been likely to use? Mantia was of course a Conn artist. So maybe Conn 6Hs? Other brands popular at the time? I read somewhere that the Conn 80H was designed for the Met section in the twenties, and the Brass Ark museum has a 80H built for Mantia claiming it was for the German repertoire at the Met. So did they use smaller trombones for Italian and larger for German already back then?
Any insights or speculation appreciated!
Thank you!

[BGuttman]

Moved to History of the Trombone.

I can't offer any definitive information. Mantia was a virtuoso on valve trombone and euphonium when he was hired by the Met. In the Mantia/Randall Arban's he is shown with a Conn 44H, but that would have been much later than the period you are asking about. Given his virtuosity on valves, he may have used a valve trombone for some of the repertoire written when they were popular (Italian and French works of the mid 19th Century), but that is pure speculation.

[Chatname]

I might be mistaken but I believe I read somewhere that while playing the valve trombone with another American opera company (don’t remember which) he had to learn the slide trombone in a week.
This was prior to his employment at the Met. I would have guessed that the Met would have moved on from valves by 1908, considering that the principal trombonist Gebhardt was a German.
If anyone knows when they switched from valves to slides, that would be great to know!

[CalgaryTbone]

That story is in the old Arban's Trombone book. It happened in Italy, and he was a young teenager at the time. He was providing much of the support for his entire family, and the management decided to fire the whole trombone section so they could change over to slide trombones. He begged for some time to learn to play slide trombone, and they gave him a week. Nice people in his management! Luckily, his talent won the day.

Jim Scott

[Posaunus]

The legend is perpetuated in the Wikipedia article about Mantia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_Mantia

[Chatname]

Maybe it is not known and lost to history which instruments the Met played more than a hundred years ago… The broader question would be: which brands/models were generally popular among classical players at the time?
I believe Chicago symphony was playing large German trombones and Boston small French or French style trombones (?). The Met had a mix of players of German and Italian origin I think (the two greatest opera cultures, makes sense).

[LIBrassCo]

Mantia played on a gold plated 80h special at one point. I know this because my friend used to own the horn, and I brokered its sale which included documentation.

[chromebone]

Here is a picture of Mantia taken sometime in the 1930's with a 44H. I'm not sure if he played this horn at the Met, but most principal trombonists were generally playing small to medium bore instruments back then. As late as the 1960's, Gordon Pulis played a 78H and his successor, Per Brevig played a 78H with a flat wrap from 1968 up until the late 70's/early 80's when he switched to an 88H. David Langlitz was probably the first at the Met to play a large bore horn on the principal chair; he won his job in 1975 on an 88H that he used for most of his 40+ year career at the Met. I'll have to ask Phil Jameson if he remembers what horn Roger Smith, Langlitz's predecessor in that chair and Jameson's teacher at Julliard, played.

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[BGuttman]

The screen shot of Mantia also came from the Randall-Mantia version of Arban's. It's entirely possible Mantia played a 44H at some point, but that model was not available in the late 19teens and 1920s.

[Posaunus]

The screen shot of Mantia also came from the Randall-Mantia version of Arban's. It's entirely possible Mantia played a 44H at some point, but that model was not available in the late 19teens and 1920s.

Per C Derksen's Conn Loyalist Website (https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnLooksTrombone.html):
[In 1937, Conn said the Conn 44H (0.485" bore) was] "Used by the great trombone virtuoso of the Metropolitan Opera, Simone Mantia." (https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn44H1941image.html)

[Chatname]

Here is a picture of Mantia taken sometime in the 1930's with a 44H. I'm not sure if he played this horn at the Met, but most principal trombonists were generally playing small to medium bore instruments back then. As late as the 1960's, Gordon Pulis played a 78H and his successor, Per Brevig played a 78H with a flat wrap from 1968 up until the late 70's/early 80's when he switched to an 88H. David Langlitz was probably the first at the Met to play a large bore horn on the principal chair; he won his job in 1975 on an 88H that he used for most of his 40+ year career at the Met. I'll have to ask Phil Jameson if he remembers what horn Roger Smith, Langlitz's predecessor in that chair and Jameson's teacher at Julliard, played.

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That’s all very interesting! Thank you, and please let me know what you find out!
Was there a tradition to use Conns at the Met, maybe dating back to Mantia?
78H is a perfect instrument for the opera, by the way.

[chromebone]

The second trombonist during the 70’s - 90’s, Doug Edelman, played an 88H with a 42 slide. But I’m not sure if there was any tradition as far as any particular brand. Steve Norrell played a Bach and sometimes a Yamaha and Hal Janks played a Benge 290. I think Don Harwood played a Holton when he was in the Met.

[Chatname]

I'll have to ask Phil Jameson if he remembers what horn Roger Smith, Langlitz's predecessor in that chair and Jameson's teacher at Julliard, played.

Curious about this, would be interested to know about his horn. Which years was he at the Met? Is there a list of players somewhere, like an online resource ?

It does make sense for the shift from small/medium to large bore to have taken place later at operas than in symphonic orchestras. After all, the human voices on stage didn’t get bigger all of a sudden and there’s a limit to how big a string section one can fit in the pits, so volume will not always be a good thing obviously. The evolution towards larger and larger bores might have been driven by large symphony orchestras and not necessarily be considered a good development for most smaller orchestras/ensembles (with the possible exception of outdoor wind bands).

[BGuttman]

The Koussevitsky site has lists of players of major orchestras, but the Metropolitan only shows "Principals". In the Trombone/Tuba section there are large gaps and Mantia is not listed.

[chromebone]

I'll have to ask Phil Jameson if he remembers what horn Roger Smith, Langlitz's predecessor in that chair and Jameson's teacher at Julliard, played.

Curious about this, would be interested to know about his horn. Which years was he at the Met? Is there a list of players somewhere, like an online resource ?

Roger Smith was principal at the Met from 1940 until his death in 1975.

[CalgaryTbone]

The second trombonist during the 70’s - 90’s, Doug Edelman, played an 88H with a 42 slide. But I’m not sure if there was any tradition as far as any particular brand. Steve Norrell played a Bach and sometimes a Yamaha and Hal Janks played a Benge 290. I think Don Harwood played a Holton when he was in the Met.

This is what I remember too from my time in NY. I would also add that Langlitz was the second player, and was promoted into Roger Smith's chair (his teacher) after Smith's death. I believe he had been playing Principal while Smith was sick. He won that 2nd job as a 2nd or 3rd year student at Juilliard.

I took my auditions for Juilliard and Manhattan School of Music in 1975 (March?). The area around the area where the trombonists were auditioning was buzzing with the news that Smith had passed away the night before the auditions.

I knew Langlitz a bit - I subbed for him, teaching the Pre-College kids while the Met was on tour. He told me that Roger Smith was indeed a "Conn player", and wasn't a fan of the competition. Dave told me he brought a Bach he was trying out to a lesson, and Smith suggested that he bring a "real trombone" next time. There was a real divide between Conns and Bachs for some players back then.

Also, I think Harwood made the switch to a Bach while he was at the Met, and I also think that when Hal Janks won the job, he was on a Conn, but found a Benge he loved a few years later. The sections of both the Met and NY Phil. played Conns back then, with other instruments (mostly Bach's) starting to appear on Bass. Of course it all changed when the personnel started changing in the '80's.

Jim Scott

[Chatname]

The sections of both the Met and NY Phil. played Conns back then, with other instruments (mostly Bach's) starting to appear on Bass. Of course it all changed when the personnel started changing in the '80's.

That is very interesting. Thank you for sharing your personal knowledge about these NY legends!
So New York’s major institutions were generally more into Conns than Bachs until Alessi’s arrival, despite Bach originating from New York? One would have assumed there would have been a strong link between Bach and the New York institutions. Was Bach more popular on the commercial scene, and Conn more on the classical?

[BGuttman]

Bach trumpets ruled. Bach wasn't known for trombones in the beginning. Besides, Conn had a good half century of reputation before Bach. Incidentally, the trombone based makers were Holton, Olds, and King.

[CalgaryTbone]

I agree with Bruce - Bach was mostly a trumpet maker in the early years. I think they really started to make some headway into the symphonic trombone world when Lambert and Friedman were using them in Chicago and then Dodson in Philadelphia (Chicago before that). When Conn left Elkhart, Bach trombones really took off. By the time I was a student in NYC, the players in the conservatories were about 50/50 Bach/Conn. There was a bit more variety in the commercial world - Kings, Olds. Reynolds were around along with Bachs and Conns. I also think that some makers had a following in different regions. I lived in the Hartford area during high school, and Olds Opera models had a presence there, and Holtons were popular in the mid-west. Holton basses were popular in the years after Conn relocated.

Things change and companies come and go. Interesting to look back, though.

Jim Scott

[slipmo]

Here's a link to Simone Mantia's Conn 80H special made in 1940 for his use in the MET with documentation from Steve Dillon as he purchased the horn in 1988.

http://brassark.com/museum/conn80hmantia.html

Interestingly, it has the same small rotor and the same bell flare as my 1920s 80H "TIS" version in my collection. So I can only surmise that Mr. Burkle assembled this instrument for Mr Mantia with a combination of old stock parts from the 1920s and newer parts from 1940 (Conn was also making bullets at this time for WWII so not many trombones from this vintage)

In case you're wondering, this is one of the best playing trombones I own (and it is well documented that I have a trombone acquisition problem) and I actually use it quite frequently. The 80H is a bit different design and bell taper from the 78H, it is much darker and more "Germanic Trombone" sounding compared to my 78H from the same time period.

[BGuttman]

In 1940 Conn wasn't yet in wartime production. That started in early 1942.

[CalgaryTbone]

That's an interesting horn Noah! Per Brevig had a medium sized horn (Conn) with a flat wrap on the valve like that - wonder if it was another 80H? Sounds likely from what's in your post. Also, I'm pretty sure that Per's horn was red brass (at least the bell).

I remember one of his students telling me a story about that horn being stolen at one point, and another one of Per's students found it in a pawn shop. Per went to the store and bought back his horn, but told the student that he was insulted by how little they were charging for it!

Jim Scott

[Kdanielsen]

Looks like mine!

80h Spec from about the same time. I’d love to get it in playing condition some day. It sounds great!

[Chatname]

What a beautiful trombone and what an experience it must be to play on such a historical instrument! Very interesting also if Per Brevig had one!
Could it be that the Met section had 80Hs all along from the twenties along with a set up of smaller trombones, something like 6Hs or equivalents? .525 bores would have been considered very large for example in the bel canto repertoire where anything is too big, and in Mozart of course.
Were all 80Hs made with valves, or some without?
Reading up on Simone Mantia a while back I seem to remember players like Gebhardt and Belgiorno amongst others being listed as principals at the Met, but not Mantia.
If he was the principal, I wonder why he ordered a trombone with F-valve.
Few opera principals would use a valve at the time, and it still is hardly ever necessary. However playing second and third parts especially in an opera house a valve would have been and still is very useful (colleagues in front often very close so difficult to reach 6th and 7th positions) and sometimes necessary (Wagner).

[CalgaryTbone]

With all the repertoire that would have originally been for valve trombone, an F attachment is very useful. Take a look at the overture to La Forza del Destino that is posted on another thread on the chat. Also, both Otello and Falstaff have trills on low B flat for the whole section - quite exposed. It's still a clunky trill with your left thumb, but not really playable without a trigger. Also, there are a few low E flats and D's in the first parts in a couple of Bellini and Donizetti operas.

Jim Scott

[Matt K]

Perhaps it is the first recorded instance of gear acquisition syndrome

[Chatname]

With all the repertoire that would have originally been for valve trombone, an F attachment is very useful. Take a look at the overture to La Forza del Destino that is posted on another thread on the chat. Also, both Otello and Falstaff have trills on low B flat for the whole section - quite exposed. It's still a clunky trill with your left thumb, but not really playable without a trigger. Also, there are a few low E flats and D's in the first parts in a couple of Bellini and Donizetti operas.

Jim Scott

You’re absolutely right, those are good examples. Even a repertoire opera like Carmen with the small solos in the lower range is easier with F-valve. Valves or no valves, I’m still curious whether they would have used small bores for Italian and medium bores like 80H for the German repertoire, considering the players came from so diverse backgrounds and the two basic repertoire genres demanded very different volume output; I mean in German music volume is generally a favorable thing, in Italian volume is often not a good thing because one plays much more while there’s actually singing going on. Or maybe a healthy mixture of sizes and brands is most likely. I suppose we’ll never know.

[CalgaryTbone]

Conductors might have made their preferences known about equipment, or at least complained about too bright an approach. Also, maybe instrument choices were changing in other orchestras nearby, and they were influenced by that. Unless there's a written record about the business in those days that includes more specific info, it's all speculation.

[chromebone]

That's an interesting horn Noah! Per Brevig had a medium sized horn (Conn) with a flat wrap on the valve like that - wonder if it was another 80H? Sounds likely from what's in your post. Also, I'm pretty sure that Per's horn was red brass (at least the bell).

Pretty sure Per’s was a 78h special with a flat wrap from what a couple of first hand accounts of being in the room with him playing it have told me.

[CalgaryTbone]

I would defer to you on that - I only saw him play that horn from a distance, or in pictures, and I wasn't his student. He coached my trombone quartet, but at that point his horn, which was across the room while he worked with us, was an 88H.

Jim Scott

[jacobgarchik]

1924 Conn Catalog

https://saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/214

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[jacobgarchik]

1937

https://saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/229

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[BGuttman]

Well, at least we know that he was using the 44H at one point.

[Chatname]

1937

https://saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/229

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Wow, amazing photos! Thank you for posting! Can someone help me identify the instruments? Mantia has his 44H, the guy to his left (Corrado?) looks like he plays a 80H (the flat wrap looks exactly like on the new Stephen Shires, right?!) . The two other guys (Wankoff and Nappi?) seem to have larger horns, TIS, and looks like the same model, are those two basses? Most nights they would have been 3 in the pit, so I suppose they would have been 2 tenors and two basses/wechsel. Also, Mantia obviously from this info played principal, which I had not seen on lists of principals of the Met. Makes sense, of course! Great photos, I would so much like to know more about these legends! If only one could have been a fly on the wall one evening close to that section…

[BGuttman]

I think the other two are 70H's. One of them was probably a "utility" player and played tenor some of the time. I'd bet when they needed a tenor tuba, that would have been Mantia.

[JohnL]

I think the gent to the left of center is using some sort of strap; possibly the valve has a yo-yo linkage?

[jacobgarchik]

1924 Conn Catalog

https://saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/214

Screen Shot 2022-07-09 at 6.41.50 PM.png

A "Symphony Trombone" could be anything from 6h size to 8h, with trigger or without.

[harrisonreed]

Those names....

Comedy duo of the millennium.

[Chatname]

Wankoff would be a fantastic profile name! And Nappi, I had to look that up…
Great artist names in a great section!

[jacobgarchik]

There are undoubtedly more references to Mantia in all the Conn catalogues and newsletters hosted by Saxophone.org. Unfortunately the interface they chose for their scans is very bad and there is no machine readable text to search.
Regardless it seems like if he was playing something as small as a 44h in 1937 he probably was using a 6h-sized horn before that, which would qualify as a "Symphony".

[CalgaryTbone]

It's also possible that he played a couple of different models and grabbed whichever was handy for that picture. Maybe he used the smaller bore for French/Italian rep., and pulled out the 80H for Wagner, etc.?

Jim Scott

[sf105]

The second trombonist during the 70’s - 90’s, Doug Edelman, played an 88H with a 42 slide. But I’m not sure if there was any tradition as far as any particular brand. Steve Norrell played a Bach and sometimes a Yamaha and Hal Janks played a Benge 290. I think Don Harwood played a Holton when he was in the Met.

In my day (about 1980), Hal Janks was playing a Holton chassis with the bell from his Fuchs 70H. I believe he was the consultant on the design of the Benge which obviously he started playing. Later he put the 70H back together and I traded a (particularly good) 60H for it.

S

[chromebone]

In my day (about 1980), Hal Janks was playing a Holton chassis with the bell from his Fuchs 70H. I believe he was the consultant on the design of the Benge which obviously he started playing. Later he put the 70H back together and I traded a (particularly good) 60H for it.

S

Hal passed away a few weeks ago. RIP.

[sf105]

Hal passed away a few weeks ago. RIP.

Damn. I missed the announcement. He can't have been that old.

[BrendanHartz]

That's an interesting horn Noah! Per Brevig had a medium sized horn (Conn) with a flat wrap on the valve like that - wonder if it was another 80H? Sounds likely from what's in your post. Also, I'm pretty sure that Per's horn was red brass (at least the bell).

Pretty sure Per’s was a 78h special with a flat wrap from what a couple of first hand accounts of being in the room with him playing it have told me.

Per spent many years at the Met using a Conn79H with that flat wrap. I was in my second or third year at Juilliard when one of the inner slide tubes cracked, causing an obvious leak. Per ( or one of us; I can't remember) tracked down a used 78H . Per used that slide with the 79H bell section. Over the years, he gradually increased use of an 88H in the Met orchestra. He also had an 80H, ostensibly once owned by Neal DiBiase. David Uber also used an 80H extentively.
Doug Edelman usually played a Conn 88H from the late 1950's, with numerous modifications done by Walter Lawson, done during the years when both played in the Baltimore Symphony. I don't remember any times when Doug used an 88H bell section with a Bach 42 slide. But... anything is possible!

[CalgaryTbone]

I played a Pines of Rome w/Edelman with the NJ Symphony a year or two before I left NYC. We were playing the offstage parts, and he was using a straight NY36 bell on a 42 slide - I remember him telling me that he asked a tech to make his 36/42/88 and his 42/88 slides all interchangeable (Conn slide/bell connections, I think). At that time, he was partial to the 42 slide with the 88 bell for most stuff, but he liked to use the 36 bell for lighter and brighter stuff.

That was more than 40 years ago, so my memory could have failed a bit, but it kind of stuck with me because I had never considered the possibility of mixing slides/bells from different companies before that day.

I also remember that the offstage parts for that performance used 3 each of trumpets/trombones, so Doug was playing a part that is often played on trumpet. It was a bit high (b flats, c's?) and he just sounded great! That horn had so much projection - the other offstage brass had to "ramp it up" to keep up! Terrific payer!

Jim Scott

[MalecHeermans]

The second trombonist during the 70’s - 90’s, Doug Edelman, played an 88H with a 42 slide. But I’m not sure if there was any tradition as far as any particular brand. Steve Norrell played a Bach and sometimes a Yamaha and Hal Janks played a Benge 290. I think Don Harwood played a Holton when he was in the Met.

Hal really liked that Benge, he said it had the best slide, but he had a whole stable of horns that he used probably depending on rep. I remember he had a horn with Thayers, must have been a Bach. This was in the early 90's. At that time he also had Chuck McAlexander make all of his bells and slides interchangeable, the results of which he was not very happy about.

[iranzi]

Those names....

Comedy duo of the millennium.

Truly!
Wankoff was of russian ancestry apparently. So, Ваньков, pronounced Van'kof — "n" with tongue flat on the palate. not just the tip.

[slipmo]

Mantia had a 80H made for him in 1940 by Jake Burkle, probably at the request to move to a larger bore. Here it is with detailed photos

https://brassark.com/museum_horns/c-g-c ... ne-mantia/

[Macbone1]

The second trombonist during the 70’s - 90’s, Doug Edelman, played an 88H with a 42 slide. But I’m not sure if there was any tradition as far as any particular brand. Steve Norrell played a Bach and sometimes a Yamaha and Hal Janks played a Benge 290. I think Don Harwood played a Holton when he was in the Met.

In the 70s, the Abilene Conns got a reputation for inconsistent slide quality. Many could not be improved by even the best techs at the time. Bach slides out of Elkhart were fine, so some players paid for an "adapter" package to mate a Bach 42 side to a Conn 88H bell - sometimes called a "Cach"