Double tonguing tips/advices

[irtjames14]

Hello,

So I just recently purchased a bass trombone and would be my first time really playing a trombone again since 2005 (back when I graduated from middle school - while I did probably touch a trombone rarely ever since then, I wouldn't really consider that playing..). Once this new trombone arrives in a few days (hopefully), the first thing I would like to start practicing is double tonguing..

I have seen a few youtube videos about using the ta-ka, du-gu techniques and start practicing that to get your tongue used to double tonguing, with the emphasis on the ka (or the gu), to strengthen the back part of your tongue.

But if there are any other tips/advices that anyone can provide as I start this journey, this would be great. Thank you all in advance!

[Doug Elliott]

Number one is start with triple tonguing, not double.
Number two is to use D and G.
Number three is to start in the upper middle range where the tongue stroke is a lot less distance than it is in the middle or low range.

It's really not the back of the tongue that does the G or K, it's only a little back from the front.

[irtjames14]

Number one is start with triple tonguing, not double.
Number two is to use D and G.
Number three is to start in the upper middle range where the tongue stroke is a lot less distance than it is in the middle or low range.

It's really not the back of the tongue that does the G or K, it's only a little back from the front.

Oh, may I ask why start with triple tonguing, not double? I would've thought triple is more difficult than double..

[GabrielRice]

Agreed with Doug on pretty much all of that.

Arban's puts triple tonguing first, and I think it's brilliant. The hump is the K or G consonant, not really the multiple aspect of it. You can work on that with a triple stroke just as easily as double, and it's easier to go from triple to double than double to triple.

[GabrielRice]

I will add that if you are just picking up the horn again after several years off, it's even more important to stick with the softer D and G syllables for a while, and in the context of slightly longer notes. I would suggest something along the lines of doooooo-doo-goo-doo-doo-goo-doooooo. Mix that up with simple lip slurs and you will be getting yourself in nice shape soon. Better, in my opinion, than doing only long tones.

That's how I'm going to start up again when I'm done with my covid break.

[irtjames14]

I will add that if you are just picking up the horn again after several years off, it's even more important to stick with the softer D and G syllables for a while, and in the context of slightly longer notes. I would suggest something along the lines of doooooo-doo-goo-doo-doo-goo-doooooo. Mix that up with simple lip slurs and you will be getting yourself in nice shape soon. Better, in my opinion, than doing only long tones.

That's how I'm going to start up again when I'm done with my covid break.

Thank you for your thoughts... I should have asked earlier from even what Doug said... what do you guys mean by D and G (or K)? Is it dooo-goo (kooo)?

And yes I completely agree with you, I'll have to practice the long notes first before building up speed.. I'm gonna be so rusty that I have to start slow.

[Doug Elliott]

Triple first because it's actually much easier to learn, and then double is easy.
In general, people who learn double first have a much harder time with triple.

I suggest starting with 3 sets of triplets followed by a quarter:
Dee-Dee-Gee Dee-Dee-Gee Dee-Dee-Gee Deeeeeeeee

Using the EEEE vowel, because it will give better results faster. Do that on an F above the staff, then work down by half steps, to Bb and then back up. Expand from there later after you become successful in that limited range.

[irtjames14]

Triple first because it's actually much easier to learn, and then double is easy.
In general, people who learn double first have a much harder time with triple.

I suggest starting with 3 sets of triplets followed by a quarter:
Dee-Dee-Gee Dee-Dee-Gee Dee-Dee-Gee Deeeeeeeee

Using the EEEE vowel, because it will give better results faster. Do that on an F above the staff, then work down by half steps, to Bb and then back up. Expand from there later after you become successful in that limited range.

Thank you so much for your advice Doug! I assume you make the actual 'dee' and 'gee' sounds when you actually blow on the trombone?

[WilliamLang]

One aspect I like to work on is equalizing the sounds of the "on" and "off" syllables. So for example playing 4 16ths with tu (or whatever you like) and then trying to recreate the sound on ku (or whatever you use.)

[Doug Elliott]

It's very helpful to practice singing the same syllables, on the same note or even higher.

[BGuttman]

I agree with William. I was taught to play long strings of each syllable alone before trying to pair them up. If you can make the second syllable sound exactly like the first your multiple tongue will sound much better.

Also practice starting on the secondary syllable first. There is a figure in the trombone part of Sibelius' "Finlandia" with 5 16th notes in a row, with the second occurring on the beat. Playing it "ku-tu-ku-tu-ku" will feel better than "tu-ku-tu-ku-tu".

[TromboneTallie]

I don't think I'll ever be able to learn triple tonguing... How on earth is that easier than double?

[irtjames14]

Looks like the getting proficient with the 'ku' syllable will be key to mastering double/triple tonguing.. Ok will take all suggestions and work on this! Thank you!

[Doug Elliott]

I don't think I'll ever be able to learn triple tonguing... How on earth is that easier than double?

Have you even tried?

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I don't think I'll ever be able to learn triple tonguing... How on earth is that easier than double?

Starting with triple tonguing is definitely the plan for multiple tonguing. It is simple mathematics. In triple tonguing, the "ka" is only 33.3% of the articulations. In double tonguing, the "ka" syllable is 50% of the articulations.

The challenge in multiple tonguing is mastery and control of the "ka" syllable (others might refer to it as ku, keh or ga, etc....). Nonetheless, it is a guttural sound that is produced in the throat or back part of the tongue muscle. In triple tonguing, the guttural sound is used in a smaller percentage of the articulations.

My teacher started me with triple tonguing in the Arban book. He told me to master the first 10 pages of the triple tonguing section and not worry about double tonguing. The plan worked. When I finally started on the double tonguing section, I was able to play through the first several pages in the first hour. I have seen the same thing happen with many of my students as well. START WITH TRIPLE TONGUING.....it is one thing that Arban definitely got right in his method book.

[Doug Elliott]

Yeah... but you're still referring to "ka" which is exactly why people have trouble with learning it. And saying it's in the throat or back of the tongue, when it's not or at least shouldn't be.
G is more forward on the tongue and produces a much cleaner and easier articulation. And the "ah" syllable makes it harder too.
Dee-Dee-Gee or Di-Di-Gi is much easier and will be much more successful quickly.
Practice saying and singing it first, then apply it to the horn.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Doug,

I agree with you that rapid triple and double tonguing is achieved with the k or g syllable that is not deep in the throat. My take on it is that the consonant sound moves forward with a change of the vowel that is used. I start my students with the tah tah kah syllables. I even have them play everything with the k consonant.....kah kah kah (as some of the others have posted). We begin with a VERY guttural sound (and it truly is a guttural sound) and do it very slow for a couple of months. At that point, I convert my students to teh teh keh (vowel sound similar to the first syllable in "teddy bear"). When this vowel is used, the tongue is higher, the origin of the articulation moves forward, and it can be executed much more rapidly.

In my ripe old age, I hesitate to teach a student NEW to double and triple tonguing to think that the k or g syllable is more forward because they might produce a tee-tee-lee or a tee-tee-dee. I taught my students this way when I was a younger and I saw the "tee-tee-lee syndrome" happen dozens of times. It forced many of my students to start multiple tonguing from scratch again after several months.

I have had much more success emphasizing that the k syllable is truly a guttural sound and I start my students with repeated hard guttural sounds kah-kah-kah that almost feel like a weak cough. There is no control of tone or the attack in the early stages, but at least the student only goes through this process once. Over time, the explosive kah sounds get gentler, the tongue stays higher in the mouth, the source of the k or g syllable moves forward and the speed develops.

A lot of what we are discussing also depends on what level of students we are teaching. The vast majority of my students are middle school and high school players who have no prior experience with multiple tonguing. Again for many years, I tried teaching double and triple tonguing with a forward consonant sound and I found that it was rather problematic for many students. Thus, I developed my approach of starting with an aggressive guttural sound and softening/bringing it forward over time. This technique has been much more successful for the younger students. However, if I am teaching a college-level player who has a couple of years of experience with multiple tonguing, we can almost immediately discuss the vowel and consonant placement for optimized articulation.

In essence, I agree with your approach for optimization of multiple tonguing (including the part about saying/singing before doing it on the horn). I just think that the pedagogy needs to be a little more "barbaric" (for lack of a better word) and "fundamental" in the early stages. Otherwise, there might be the need to reteach/relearn this skill in about six or seven months.

[MrHCinDE]

I don't think I'll ever be able to learn triple tonguing... How on earth is that easier than double?

Multiple tonguing was never really a strength of mine but with lots of practice I could play the few bits I came across in tutti sections, though it was never good enough to play something like an air and variations solo.

After not needing multiple tonguing for a couple of years in tutti playing (for obvious reasons!) I’ve just been getting back into it recently and for me the triple tonguing is a lot more approachable than double. That’s probably an indication that the weaker syllable needs some work.

Seeing as I’m going to have to put some hours in to tidy up the double-tonguing, I might as well try out the dee-gee approach. My wife and dog are about to be serenaded with hours of gees!

Any tips on how to get a bigger overlap between fast single and slow double tonguing? The corridor of multiple tonguing uncertainty comes up surprisingly often!

[Doug Elliott]

Practice multiple tonguing at very slow speeds - if you do that there's no reason for a gap. Quarter notes, or even half notes.

[TromboneTallie]

I don't think I'll ever be able to learn triple tonguing... How on earth is that easier than double?

Have you even tried?

Yeah. I concluded about 10 years ago that I would just double tongue triplets after giving a good chunk of time to practicing it in Arban's Method.

[Doug Elliott]

I know people who do that.
I think Arban's is a really bad way to learn it. Try what I described, singing it on a high F, starting very slow to establish the sequence.
Triplet - quarter - triplet - quarter.
DeDeGe Dee, DeDeGe Dee

Repeat many times. It's not at all hard IF you approach it right.

[kch11743]

Does anyone have a strong opinion about the order of syllables for triple tonguing? I learned with the G/K on the second syllable (tuh-kuh-tuh), but it seems that most (including Arbans) put it on the third (tuh-tuh-kuh). Are there any benefits to re-training my tongue to match what most people do?

[Kdanielsen]

Does anyone have a strong opinion about the order of syllables for triple tonguing? I learned with the G/K on the second syllable (tuh-kuh-tuh), but it seems that most (including Arbans) put it on the third (tuh-tuh-kuh). Are there any benefits to re-training my tongue to match what most people do?

Best to be able to do either, but I do dgd 99% of the time and it’s fine. I actually think dgd is better in most situations and easier to learn.

[baileyman]

Do you guys find differences in how the syllables operate in different ranges? Moving in different directions? Personally, I spend a fair amount of time turning everything upside down because often what works coming down doesn't want to work going up without additional sorting.

[Doug Elliott]

I always consider that there are three different things to work on with multiple tonguing. Static repetitively tonguing on one note; ascending; and descending. They are all different and need to be practiced.

Actually not just multiple tonguing, the same applies to single tonguing.

[ArbanRubank]

My chops are capable of anything! LOL!

[Steelman]

Number one is start with triple tonguing, not double.
Number two is to use D and G.
Number three is to start in the upper middle range where the tongue stroke is a lot less distance than it is in the middle or low range.

It's really not the back of the tongue that does the G or K, it's only a little back from the front.

Exactly...follow these steps and you'd be fine.

[ArbanRubank]

Just when I think I have it down pat, my tongue gets dumb; which leads me to think that mostly, it's mental. JJ once said that it's something to practice for 5 minutes a day - - - - for five years, before it's usable!

[Doug Elliott]

Try not doing it at all for a while and then come back to it. There are many things that benefit from a rest.

[LeTromboniste]

Does anyone have a strong opinion about the order of syllables for triple tonguing? I learned with the G/K on the second syllable (tuh-kuh-tuh), but it seems that most (including Arbans) put it on the third (tuh-tuh-kuh). Are there any benefits to re-training my tongue to match what most people do?

I think some more naturally find one easier, others the other. Tgt was easier for me when I was learning it. I improved my ttg because in some contexts it's better. For me it's easier to use tgt when there are several triplets chained together, but ttg is better for a single triplet pick-up because the attack on the next note is cleaner.

With the style of music I play now, I rarely use standard triple or double tonguing, and my triple when needed is often te-dl-de

[ArbanRubank]

Try not doing it at all for a while and then come back to it. There are many things that benefit from a rest.

Truth! I learn from NOT doing, sometimes. What most of us probably do not take into account is that it takes time for neural networks to build while not it actual use. So I believe in taking at least one complete day a week off from practicing or playing - just to reknit and refresh the pathways, if for no other reason. But yes, sometimes it's beneficial to just quit trying so hard on something and leave it be a while.

[robcat2075]

I spent a lot of time in high school working on my multiple-tonguing, thinking it must be very important because there were many pages devoted to it in the Arban's method.

Then I went off to college and found it was lower than the last thing anyone had any concern about on a trombone. I don't recall it being a serious need for anything put in front of me in music for band, orchestra, jazz, weird new music ensembles or solo repertoire, even at the graduate level.

But decades later... I got in an aspiring wind ensemble that happened to play some circus marches... for THAT, I needed the double- and triple-tonguing!

So, after you get your regular trombone playing back in order, after you get your tonguing all tripled and doubled, when you're looking for practical material to use it on, dig up the trombone parts to the pieces on the Frederick Fennell/Eastman Wind Ensemble "Screamers" album. They're almost all public domain and available on archives on the web.

[timothy42b]

So, after you get your regular trombone playing back in order, after you get your tonguing all tripled and doubled, when you're looking for practical material to use it on, dig up the trombone parts to the pieces on the Frederick Fennell/Eastman Wind Ensemble "Screamers" album. They're almost all public domain and available on archives on the web.

And then you take an easy gig in an oom-pah band, content to play afterbeats on Blue Danube all night long, and somebody calls this piece:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUv76QcT_5c

[Doug Elliott]

t-k-t wouldn't work very well for that

[robcat2075]

And then you take an easy gig in an oom-pah band, content to play afterbeats on Blue Danube all night long, and somebody calls this piece:

I thinking there must be a way to do this gag without him man-splaining the trombone to her.

How about if, instead of pretending to forget the tune, she pretends her arm is tired and gets him to hold the slide in place while she moves forward and backward?

That would fix it!

[ArbanRubank]

Back on topic, it's clear why Arbans doesn't fit well for jazz playing in double/triple tonguing. Aside from the old-school tic-a-tic-a-tic technique, what jazzer runs up and down two-octave scales endlessly? There are many exceptions, but mostly, dt/tt techniques are used in spurts (oops, hi Curtis). Oh, and speaking of Curtis, I usually THINK that I hear him double-tonguing in quarter steps, a la the Mc Chesney assertion that the ear hears articulation before it hears pitch. Anyone for a two-octave Bb scale all done in 1st position?

[Basbasun]

A clip from Alan Raph.

[ArbanRubank]

Nice!

And then there is multiple-tonguing on the bass trombone - specifically in the low trigger & pedal ranges Whew! I know it can be done, but it takes a huge amount of development, a certain amount of low-range giftedness and the right equipment. Is there really ANY credible call for it in published literature in that ultra-low range, though?

[GabrielRice]

And then there is multiple-tonguing on the bass trombone - specifically in the low trigger & pedal ranges Whew! I know it can be done, but it takes a huge amount of development, a certain amount of low-range giftedness and the right equipment. Is there really ANY credible call for it in published literature in that ultra-low range, though?

What do you mean by ultra-low range? Seems to me it's hard enough to do what is called for occasionally in the orchestral literature - for example the fast repeated low Ebs at fortissimo in Finlandia. If you can actually do that, you're well on the way to doing the same lower.

I've developed the ability to multiple tongue the low valve register and open horn pedals. I'm not particularly gifted in the low range, and it took me into my 40s to get anywhere significant with it. I don't think it's particularly about equipment either.

What it took was finally learning how to play properly in the low register. What does that mean? For one thing, it means not switching to a quasi-upstream embouchure before I absolutely have to for special effect. It means committing to developing the ability to start notes down there without the tongue. It means keeping the corners engaged while doing descending lip slurs.

As to the multiple tonguing in that register specifically, start at soft dynamics and VERY soft consonants. Look in a mirror to see how stable your embouchure is while you do that. If the corners are moving all over the place, play even softer and use even softer consonants.

[Kdanielsen]

As to the multiple tonguing in that register specifically, start at soft dynamics and VERY soft consonants. Look in a mirror to see how stable your embouchure is while you do that. If the corners are moving all over the place, play even softer and use even softer consonants.

Ah! The elusive thuga thuga thuga pattern.

[ArbanRubank]

Cool!

I believe it's definitely worth working on; multiple-tonguing in the low trigger and open pedal ranges is - for development sake, if not for actual performance.

Equipment? I think it's an arguable point as to what makes multiple-tonguing on the bass trombone in the lower trigger range and open pedal range more feasible for some and not for others.

[GabrielRice]

Ah! The elusive thuga thuga thuga pattern.

Maybe even lunga lunga

[robcat2075]

Ah! The elusive thuga thuga thuga pattern.

Maybe even lunga lunga

or how about...

Ramones.jpg

[ArbanRubank]

I favor the Cookie Monster's technique:

[patrickosmith]

Question 1
May I ask specifically how you all play the Finlandia lick?

I think I prefer the following:

Option 1:
pD D D
TTKTKT T T r T

where:
p = pickup note
D = downbeat note
r = rest

But Bruce mentioned the more typical ...

Option 2:
pD D D
KTKTKT T T r T

I find that Option 2 (starting the lick with a K) is more prone to being out of time or being fuzzy on the first (pickup) note.

In terms of speed, Option 1 is just a triple tongue for the first group followed by a double tongue although the rhythm is all 16ths notes.

Question 2
How specifically to do you recommend to practice this? (And don't say 5 minutes for 5 years! My performance is in about 2 weeks)