Medium bore trombones - why?

[TomRiker]

One other reason that .547's are in use more is that a lot of composers/arrangers are not very clear on the difference between tenor and bass trombone. I see a lot of parts nowadays with lots of trigger notes in the tenors and very low range overall, even in Pops repertoire. Bad scoring - thick muddy writing, but unfriendly to a smaller bore horn in every way. Worst of all worlds, since the low writing and large horns both add to the muddy texture. Add close mikes for everyone and it is the musical equivalent of a slow moving mudslide. Very few people study orchestration anymore - charts are produced by someone that took a semester of theory and owns Finale.

These charts are all technically playable, but aren't in sync with the sound that would be supportive of the music being played. Also, there are a lot of shows, ballets, etc. where someone has done a "reduction" so what was a section of 2 or 3 players is now just one. I played a run of "West Side Story" where there were prominent low "C's" and at least one high "E flat". No horn to use for that but a .547 tenor.

Jim Scott

I used to work at a venue that hosted an opera company several times a year. One season they decided to do West Side Story. It was a reduced orchestra. No idea if there is more than one arrangement for reduced orchestra but I noticed that the trombone player was using a different instrument than his normal .547. Turns out he chose a Bach 36b. He sounded very good.

[TomRiker]

The student argument doesn't hold water, I think. If the aim is to produce hirable, say, orchestral musicians, then you need to train them on the equipment that people are being hired on. If a student can't hack the required equipment...

This goes for any technical school. You name it. You wanna be a 18 wheel truck driver, you gotta drive an 18 wheel truck

It's a completely different story if you're going to be the one who tries to change the business and the culture. Good luck!

I think that argument is fine if you are talking about college performance majors. I think taking that approach to elementary through high school students does them a disservice. Give them the tool to learn how to make music and express themselves. Not to land a job. Most of those kids will never need to worry about what instrument will land them an audition. They can just learn to express themselves and have fun. The ones that end up wanting to be pros can learn the pro equipment in college.

[harrisonreed]

The student argument doesn't hold water, I think. If the aim is to produce hirable, say, orchestral musicians, then you need to train them on the equipment that people are being hired on. If a student can't hack the required equipment...

This goes for any technical school. You name it. You wanna be a 18 wheel truck driver, you gotta drive an 18 wheel truck

It's a completely different story if you're going to be the one who tries to change the business and the culture. Good luck!

I think that argument is fine if you are talking about college performance majors. I think taking that approach to elementary through high school students does them a disservice. Give them the tool to learn how to make music and express themselves. Not to land a job. Most of those kids will never need to worry about what instrument will land them an audition. They can just learn to express themselves and have fun. The ones that end up wanting to be pros can learn the pro equipment in college.

I guess I'll say it again. I took the original comment to mean "college student", trying to get a job. This is usually where "kids" are forced to play large bores.

The comment about young kids from the previous page, trying to take a jab at me, is kind of silly given the premise. If this thread was about step up instruments for children, cool, but it's not. What are we really talking about here? Professional or semi-professional applications for medium bores? Good, then let's leave small kids out of it.

[harrisonreed]

The student argument doesn't hold water, I think. If the aim is to produce hirable, say, orchestral musicians, then you need to train them on the equipment that people are being hired on. If a student can't hack the required equipment...

Yeah, there's a shortage of orchestral trombone players ;oP

No there isn't, haha. That's another story for another day!

[harrisonreed]

Just wondering how much the mouthpiece can affect the timbre of a trombone - can you convincingly fake a large bore on a medium bore horn with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece, or conversely lighten up the tone with a smaller/shallower piece? If so, doesn't that extend the versatility of a medium bore?

This is another great reason for not needing a medium bore. A 3BF takes to all sorts of mouthpieces. Put a deep cup on it, and it plays huge. If I had to play in a pit, I'd use that.

With Doug's system, a 3BF can be the "do-it-all" horn, if you're into that

[Thrawn22]

I like my medium bore for chamber orchestra, upper 1st parts in orchestra and quartets. Works well in wnd ensemble too. I'm currently looking for a SL2525 for my custom 78H bell.

3BFs are silly to me. But hey, use what works.

[Matt K]

I wish 3bf+s were more common. I hardly ever see them come up for sale but I suspect one would be as close as I could get to an “everything” horn

[BGuttman]

I tested out an Anniversary 2125F in Sterling. And was underwhelmed. First, the "reach" of the slide was pretty narrow and made it uncomfortable. On the plus side, the F-attachment lever worked the same as a 3BF (which would alienate a lot of other players). I also was surprised that I wasn't that impressed with the sterling silver bell. At the time, King seemed to be in a quality "divot".

When King revised the lineup they removed the 2125F calling the straight 2125 "3BPL". I might have liked a better made one, but then again the Benge 175F is a better horn. Wish they made a 175C.

[ithinknot]

'Small big horn' is easy to understand... any Shires/Edwards/Rath/etc is a post-36/42 orchestral horn with a smaller slide, which turns out to be useful exactly where you'd imagine.

But what about 'big small', beyond the 3B+? And what about all those [insert number between 17 and 35] Bachs? Maybe they didn't survive for good reasons, or maybe their timing was just wrong. If they'd remained in the catalog long enough to see everyone go chasing Big Straight JJ Tone, might some purpose-built .515 or .522 have become a NYC big band standard, instead of 'maybe a 36 for lead, but it's not for everyone'...?

(Re the jazz 36... as a solo instrument, I get it - that's a great noise, of a particular sort. 1st or 2nd in a big band, maybe not so much - another step towards dynamics being a thing on a fader, not a question of color.)

A Besson 10-10 showed up here today (I need it like a complimentary trepanning, but it was on eBay locally for zilch) - .523, variously unlike anything made today and sort of unplaceable feel/sizewize - compact, 'big small' and MASSIVE. Intonation is fine, but v Kingly, and the bell is significantly further forward even than those, all of which is a trip coming from Bachs.

There are also plenty of Germans in the 5teens/5thirtysomething dual bore region, but they've got their own thing going on.

[Posaunus]

Because of this thread, I took my 3BF out of the closet today (for the first time in many months) and played it for 2 hours in a big band section. I had forgotten how fine a trombone this is, and how it is a chameleon depending on the mouthpiece - light and jazzy with a smaller piece, full and nearly "orchestral" with a larger piece.

[MrHCinDE]

Something I didn't pick up on in the replies so far is whether the audience would enjoy listening to us playing on medium bore. What's more important, how we sound to ourselves, to our section mates, to the conductor, or to the audience?

I would suggest that what’s most important to the majority of the audience is not the last few % of a massive wall of sound that could be achieved with a heavy large bore tenor, but rather the clarity and sweetness of sound that can, for some (maybe many?) trombonists be more easily achieved with slightly smaller setups, i.e. medium bore, particularly on 1st trombone.

It’s not exactly directly related to the medium bore discussion and is a blatant bit of self-congratulation, but I saw a recent write up of a concert I played in where the reporter wrote:

“After the eerily accelerated pizzicato of the strings, the horn theme appears like a sunrise, outshone by the majestic trombone chorale”

To put it in context, it was about Brahms 1 and I chose to play on alto trombone. It's only the local rag and they're generally pretty kind to us so is possibly it bit generous but I got similar feedback from others in the audience as well. I could have chosen played it on tenor, there would have been plenty of good arguments to do so but would I have been able to get the same shimmering, dolce sound on a large bore tenor at a relatively low dynamic to elicit such feedback from the listener? Others possibly could but no way I could have done. Perhaps other trombonists would have preferred to play that piece with two large tenors and a bass and have a broader more uniform sound, I’m not saying there’s a right or wrong, it’s great to have some variety. Anyway, I know that’s not specifically a medium bore topic, but reading the concert report was what triggered my thought that actually the listener may enjoy a bit of clarity and vibrancy in the upper trombone part on occasion, it’s not only about making a huge, dark sound, hence the unapologetically tenuous link to the usefulness of medium bore trombones.

Large bore, medium bore, small bore, alto, the more the merrier I say, each on their own merits but particularly for 1st trombone in symphonic, brass band and wind orchestra medium bore can be a great option for a lot of people, myself included.

[Macbone1]

When it comes to horn size/bore sizes I find myself thinking less about musical contexts and more about endurance! This comes with age I suppose. A .547 is great for orchestra of course and nobody is gonna get fatigued on a big horn with all the rests typical for that genre. I use my .491 for long, tiring jazz band concerts and dances, for blend but mostly to survive to the end and get paid! A .525 is good for concert band/wind ensemble/brass choir, where I'd find a .547 to be too tiring in most cases.

[imsevimse]

Just wondering how much the mouthpiece can affect the timbre of a trombone - can you convincingly fake a large bore on a medium bore horn with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece, or conversely lighten up the tone with a smaller/shallower piece? If so, doesn't that extend the versatility of a medium bore?

The mouthpiece can change the sound a lot and also the leadpipe. Other things that matter is model of horn which means measurement, weight and material of different parts of the horn. My small bore horns play different. Some small bores plays huge compared to its size.
Generally I would say that a particular player probably gets a bigger sound on a 547 horn compared to a smaller one but if there are two different players then the one with a .525 horn may be the one with the bigger sound.

What is more important than anything is the player and the players technique, what sound he wants. This is because the instrument is also extended with mouth cavity and body volume, tounge, size of lungs, throat and anything you can think of that is personal to the player. The instrument of brass is only half the instrument. Look up Håkan Björkman (has made solo recordings). He is the principal of the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra and you will hear an example of a Yamaha 892ZX .509 bore with f-att which is considered to be small for a symphonic player. He has a very nice sound on that setup. It is absolutely a lighter sound than Alessi for example. Alessi also has a very good sound. These are two of the worlds best players. I think Alessi is more of what people strive for. I even think some tenor tromboneplayers go beyond that and want a sound more like a bass trombone sound. Yes, that is impressive. I like bass so nothing wrong with that if that's your sound. As a soloist this could be nice but if you want to blend? In the case of Håkan I know he has his own model of mouthpiece made for him by Yamaha. Does it have to be a huge sound to be a good sound? If you find his rexords and have a listen you know. My answer is no. It is to have an efficient, complex and appealing sound that is important. Dynamic sound is what Håkan talkes about. He has said " It's easier to make a smaller horn sound big than vice versa"

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

I played a borrowed 3B/F on a gig a few days ago because I forgot my horn...
I got comfortable on it pretty quickly. The F attachment may have played well but the trigger was so hard to use I gave up on it.

I consider a 36B the ultimate versatile trombone capable of just about anything. If I had to have only one trombone that would be it.

[BGuttman]

That's the nice feature about a 3BF. You can use the F-attachment or not. It plays pretty well either way.

[Pmlee1954]

I sometimes really like playing my Blessing medium bore (0.525) straight trombone. And there are certainly even better ones in that size.

But I still cannot figure out in which real life situation I would regularly prioritize it over other options in my stable.

Symphony orchestra: Large bore
Wind Orchestra and brass Band: probably large bore
Chamber music (brass ensemble/quintet, trombone Ensemble): Alternating between large and small bore
Big Band: Small bore
(Not playing any small Jazz ensemble stuff)
Etc...

I could imagine very specific situations or individual pieces where a medium bore would make Sense, but no general rule. E.g. Bolero, maybe a movie program or a downscaled section for a choir concert.
I also understand that it's a good compromise for situations where you don't really know what repertoire is coming (and you cannot bring multiple trombones) - but how often does this really happen?
And I see the point for people that want to play or afford only one trombone or don't feel "ready" for a large bore.

But if you are thinking in general terms - where does it fit? Is there any setting where you are expected to bring a medium bore?

(I am also aware that in the jazz scene at least some people play less Standard equipment and there may be more room for individual preferences. But also there the general choice is not a medium bore)

I think you are correct in your assessment that using large bore trombones in large classical settings and using a medium bore bore in jazz settings is normal practice.

[Bach5G]

I can’t think of any settings in which you’d be expected to use a medium bore (.525”) horn.

[Doug Elliott]

Be expected to? By whom?
Who cares?

It's perfect for nearly any gig with only one trombone, or one tenor. Jazz, shows, brass quintet.

I use it on some 3 horn gigs where I need to be a bottom voice sometimes.

Better question than why, is why not?

[GabrielRice]

I played a borrowed 3B/F on a gig a few days ago because I forgot my horn...

Let's just take a moment to let that sink in.

[harrisonreed]

I played a borrowed 3B/F on a gig a few days ago because I forgot my horn...
I got comfortable on it pretty quickly. The F attachment may have played well but the trigger was so hard to use I gave up on it.

I consider a 36B the ultimate versatile trombone capable of just about anything. If I had to have only one trombone that would be it.

I've heard of others not liking the F attachment on the 3BF. The newer ones have a string linkage and a different paddle. The older ones have a smaller paddle, and a plastic kidney shaped linkage. I have the old style on mine and think it works pretty great. The newer ones are just OK. Not sure if it would be worth trying to reinvent, vs. just getting a .508 shires with f attachment or the 36B route.

I could see it being a deal breaker for sure. But the 3B itself is a design that is hard to beat.

[jacobgarchik]

What are orchestra players using these days to play 1st parts in pre-20th c repertoire?

[hornbuilder]

What are orchestra players using these days to play 1st parts in pre-20th c repertoire?

99% of the time, large bore, valved tenors. At least in the US. (Sweeping statement I know. But I think it is probably pretty accurate)

[spencercarran]

What are orchestra players using these days to play 1st parts in pre-20th c repertoire?

99% of the time, large bore, valved tenors. At least in the US. (Sweeping statement I know. But I think it is probably pretty accurate)

And that's also a bit odd, no? There are a fair number of concerts where you don't use the valve at all. If you have multiple trombones (or a modular trombone) it seems like playing a straight horn for those concerts should be the obvious choice.

[ArbanRubank]

Be expected to? By whom?
Who cares?

It depends. If you happen to live and play non or semi-professionally in the shadow of a significant university with a robust musical program, then they may have set a "standard" for the sound of their trombone section. In my area, it was the sound concept of a 42B. So everywhere I played that featured a brass choir, ensemble, etc - that is what the musical directors wanted, because it was - I guess - what they were accustomed to, perhaps having even graduated from that university's musical department.

I know this discussion is about medium-bore horns, but my example was how a certain manufacturer and model can possibly become regimented in a given area.

I wonder if others who contribute to this forum and who teach in a university, have seen evidence of this coat-tailing by groups within their area as well. If not, then maybe it was either just my imagination, or a situation that was unique where I was at the time, for some odd reason.

[jacobgarchik]

this seems like a sensible approach.
from https://www.tobyoft.com/equipment

EQUIPMENT GENERAL USES
Edwards T350HB Default Trombone
Thein Kruspe Alto Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms: 1 & 2, Mendelssohn, Schumann
Thein Kruspe Tenor (small bore) Brahms: 3 & 4, Schubert, Dvorak 6 & 7
Bach 36G (straight) Berlioz: Phantastique, Ravel: Bolero & Le Enfant, Jazz or Latin Pops repertoire

[jacobgarchik]

also seems sensible

[Bach5G]

this seems like a sensible approach.
from https://www.tobyoft.com/equipment

EQUIPMENT GENERAL USES
Edwards T350HB Default Trombone
Thein Kruspe Alto Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms: 1 & 2, Mendelssohn, Schumann
Thein Kruspe Tenor (small bore) Brahms: 3 & 4, Schubert, Dvorak 6 & 7
Bach 36G (straight) Berlioz: Phantastique, Ravel: Bolero & Le Enfant, Jazz or Latin Pops repertoire

Yeah. If we have all of these choices, why not make them? Why one-size-fits-all .547 trigger horn?

[Posaunus]

this seems like a sensible approach.
from https://www.tobyoft.com/equipment

EQUIPMENT GENERAL USES
Edwards T350HB Default Trombone
Thein Kruspe Alto Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms: 1 & 2, Mendelssohn, Schumann
Thein Kruspe Tenor (small bore) Brahms: 3 & 4, Schubert, Dvorak 6 & 7
Bach 36G (straight) Berlioz: Phantastique, Ravel: Bolero & Le Enfant, Jazz or Latin Pops repertoire

Toby's approach makes a lot of sense. I love the wonderful sounds that the Boston Symphony Orchestra produces, whether in their amazing concert hall or not.

Note that the rest of of their low brass section also adjusts (goes smaller) when Toby does.

I love playing slightly smaller equipment on the kind of literature Toby notes. And also for smaller ensembles in more intimate venues than a large concert hall.

Isn't about time that the major conservatories recognized this advantage (and, I hope, trend)?

[imsevimse]

Why a medium trombone? Listen to this played on a. 509 Yamaha 892ZX with f-att and you might know the answer.

This is Håkan Björkman



/Tom

[harrisonreed]

Why a medium trombone? Listen to this played on a. 509 Yamaha 892ZX with f-att and you might know the answer.

This is Håkan Björkman



/Tom

That's a small bore in my book. I think the .508 (or .509 lol) is the do it all.

He sounds like Lindberg at the start there, you can here it in how he ramps the lip slurs. What a sound! Sweden!

[jacobgarchik]

I suspect there's quite a lot of film score sessions with a variety of sizes.





great instagram account, BTW.

[Mv2541]

Be expected to? By whom?
Who cares?

I’ve been enjoying reading this thread, and this is exactly my thought. I bring a 36 to anything that isn’t with a big orchestra. No MD or audience member would know or care, and I get to play the horn I like playing; it’s a win-win.

[jorymil]

Why a medium trombone? Listen to this played on a. 509 Yamaha 892ZX with f-att and you might know the answer.

This is Håkan Björkman



/Tom

Where can I get one of those? That is one sweet horn.

[jorymil]

I wish 3bf+s were more common. I hardly ever see them come up for sale but I suspect one would be as close as I could get to an “everything” horn

There were two for sale on eBay a month or so ago: both sold for under $1k. I got mine in ugly, but playable condition for $500 online (my specific horn comes up a bunch in Google images). $200 in repairs and $200 or so to make it f/g convertible. They're out there to be had.

It won't fool anyone into thinking it's a bass, and it probably won't do the Tommy Dorsey thing as well as a 2B, but it's a really nice horn. It's not a marching horn, either! We egg your house for doing that!

[imsevimse]

Why a medium trombone? Listen to this played on a. 509 Yamaha 892ZX with f-att and you might know the answer.

This is Håkan Björkman

/Tom

Where can I get one of those? That is one sweet horn.

You need to get in contact with Yamaha and ask them to make you one. If they hear a lot of people are interested they might understand this horn could sell. I know we are five players in Stockholm who own one. Håkan was the first since it is his own model. A friend that runs one of the two still existing brass instrument shops in Stockholm contacted Yamaha and asked them to build four more. One was sold immediately and the three others remained at the shop. I was there as fast as I heard about them and tried. They were nice horns but I hadn't the money. A year later I was there again and then only one was left in stock. This time I had the money.

[Burgerbob]

I wish 3bf+s were more common. I hardly ever see them come up for sale but I suspect one would be as close as I could get to an “everything” horn

Again, King 607F is literally a 3B+F with a straight bell brace.

[ithinknot]

I wish 3bf+s were more common. I hardly ever see them come up for sale but I suspect one would be as close as I could get to an “everything” horn

Again, King 607F is literally a 3B+F with a straight bell brace.

and brass outers, FWIW

[Trav1s]

Amateur player (recovering music major) with 35 years of experience with .522"/.525" horns here. I started on trumpet and developed some crazy embouchure problems then moved to trombone. When it was time to upgrade, my teacher (a Bach guy) said go with the 36B - he called it a horn that would last my entire lifetime. If I went the music ed/performance route then an upgrade would be in my future but the 36B (medium bore) was/is versatile and worth having in the arsenal.

When I changed majors, the 36B did everything I needed in college performance ensembles as a non major. I continued to use it in other groups and settings. I have since then become a Conn-vert but 30 years later, the medium bore continues to do the same - It works for me and it works well.

When people hear me play, they are quite surprised at the sound that I get out of a medium bore horn - this really hit home while playing in a trombone choir at ITF. Only I knew I was cheating and playing a medium bore. Work smarter, not harder is my mantra.



I've spent the past 30 years working on my sound concept and have made the following observation while playing many different horns in the .520"-.525" range:

- A simple mouthpiece change can make all the difference in sound and response with these horns. The 6.5 range allow them to bark more and the 5 range with a bigger cup fills out the sound. The jackpot mouthpiece on the 79H is a Doug Elliott LT102/LT-D/D4 which makes the horn a great 88H imposter. Thanks Doug!

- I will be experimenting with lead pipes once my second .522" slide is back in my possession. I am curious to see how a large shank pipe/piece will work on the vintage Conn .522" slides.



I'm a pragmatic person and short of those going down the classical performance road, I can't see a need for .547" horn. As Sam Burtis said on the old forum - Try 'em all and play what works for you.

And yes, the my college studio was quick to push me towards the 42B/Bach 6.5AL combo. I played the game and it was not fun. Every Bach 6.5AL I have tied was/is a huge source of frustration for me. Likewise, my college teacher was quick to write off the mouthpiece I had been playing for 3 years prior to joining the studio simply because it did not say Bach 6.5AL on it. I'm grateful for the progress made in the trombone world since the 80's and appreciate the options available to us today.

Now, if I had the $ to head to the New Jersey or even the UK and put together the R3F of my dreams with the 8" nickel bell, Rotax valve, gold brass slide, and red brass tuning slide...

[MStarke]

Lots of very interesting posts!

Trying to summarize it:
There is not really any situation where a medium (+/- .525) bore trombone would be expected/"industry" standard.
But there are lots of situations where at least for some people it can work much better than the standard choices.

Maybe I will give mine a little bit more face time. But on the other hand I already have too many other trombones that are being played regularly...

[Macbone1]

Just wondering how much the mouthpiece can affect the timbre of a trombone - can you convincingly fake a large bore on a medium bore horn with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece, or conversely lighten up the tone with a smaller/shallower piece? If so, doesn't that extend the versatility of a medium bore?

There is certainly some flexibility, but IMHO more toward a smaller than larger mouthpiece. Going too large will make for dark and tubby sounding mid and high range and a weird stuffy feeling on the lowest notes. But going too far in any direction will distort tone and response.
I once had a teacher who did studio dates in Philly; he only owned a Bach 36B and said he could cover anything including bass trb parts up to a certain point. When I was in the service I stuck a Bach 7 in my .525 bore for 2nd book in big band; it worked fine.

[Trav1s]

Just wondering how much the mouthpiece can affect the timbre of a trombone - can you convincingly fake a large bore on a medium bore horn with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece, or conversely lighten up the tone with a smaller/shallower piece? If so, doesn't that extend the versatility of a medium bore?

There is certainly some flexibility, but IMHO more toward a smaller than larger mouthpiece. Going too large will make for dark and tubby sounding mid and high range and a weird stuffy feeling on the lowest notes. But going too far in any direction will distort tone and response.
I once had a teacher who did studio dates in Philly; he only owned a Bach 36B and said he could cover anything including bass trb parts up to a certain point. When I was in the service I stuck a Bach 7 in my .525 bore for 2nd book in big band; it worked fine.

That's my experience - the 36B I purchased new in 1986 came with a Bach 7C but that was as small as I found workable on that horn. In general, I have found the medium bore horns to no like deep cups. Not sure if that is more about the depth itself or the backbore that is generally paired with them. In the Doug Elliott world, the C+/D/D+ is the sweet spot for me - YMMV

[spencercarran]

There is certainly some flexibility, but IMHO more toward a smaller than larger mouthpiece. Going too large will make for dark and tubby sounding mid and high range and a weird stuffy feeling on the lowest notes. But going too far in any direction will distort tone and response.
I once had a teacher who did studio dates in Philly; he only owned a Bach 36B and said he could cover anything including bass trb parts up to a certain point. When I was in the service I stuck a Bach 7 in my .525 bore for 2nd book in big band; it worked fine.

That's my experience - the 36B I purchased new in 1986 came with a Bach 7C but that was as small as I found workable on that horn. In general, I have found the medium bore horns to no like deep cups. Not sure if that is more about the depth itself or the backbore that is generally paired with them. In the Doug Elliott world, the C+/D/D+ is the sweet spot for me - YMMV

I found 36B + Wick 4BS to be a really nice combination. 51D was too far though; got so many response and intonation quirks.

[timothy42b]

I played a borrowed 3B/F on a gig a few days ago because I forgot my horn...

Let's just take a moment to let that sink in.

That was my thought too. I've showed up with no mouthpiece, or no mute, but have yet to leave the whole horn home!

[imsevimse]

Let's just take a moment to let that sink in.

That was my thought too. I've showed up with no mouthpiece, or no mute, but have yet to leave the whole horn home!

I've heard of people who came to a gig with an empty case. It sure happens. I've personally forgot the mouthpiece on gigs which hurts a lot. Fortunately I was saved the last minute. The band was ready, I was on first with no mouthpiece but ready with my horn. Dancing audience were ready. The second song was to be "I've got you under my skin" with the solo in my part. . The start was delayed because the second tromboneplayer was five minutes late. When he arrived he happend to have an extra Bach 6 1/2 Megatone on loan that I could use. He saved my gig. Could have been the last time I subbed with that band

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

I've actually arrived at 4 gigs in the past few years without my horn.
We're usually packing the car with my wife's upright bass, the band music, music stands, lights, etc. I have to remember all the important band stuff first.

[Posaunus]

The worst that I've done:
• Arrived at a rehearsal without music (once) or a stand (once).
• Arrived at a concert without a trombone slide (sitting at home drying by the sink after I'd given it a thorough cleaning!)

Never again!

[DougHulme]

I once turned up to a sound check the night before the recording only to find I was missing the slide. I had a single trigger and a double trigger bell set up that shared the same slide, you could see how that could happen couldnt you? Or maybe its something to do with the christian name!... Doug

[modelerdc]

IMHO the medium .525 bore horns, such as the Bach 36B is the best size for brass quintet. also good for 1st in orchestra when the large bore is a bit much. Works fine on 3rd in big band but a bit much for lead. Good for musicals when one trombone plays all over the place. Good for jazz when you are the only trombone in the group. Actually, the most versatile trombone of all, but not better than a large bore for most large orchestra work and not better than a small bore for lead, and traditional jazz.

[sungfw]

I guess I'll say it again. I took the original comment to mean "college student", trying to get a job. This is usually where "kids" are forced to play large bores.

The comment about young kids from the previous page, trying to take a jab at me, is kind of silly given the premise. If this thread was about step up instruments for children, cool, but it's not. What are we really talking about here? Professional or semi-professional applications for medium bores? Good, then let's leave small kids out of it.

The author of the post you took issue with specifically stated:

Also, they can be a great transitional horn for students that are ready for an F-attachment but not a large bore. We have a few teachers around my area that really like the Eastman ETB428MG for that exact reason, plus it's pretty cheap. [emphasis mine]

Given that premise, it's difficult to fathom how anyone could miss that the author was NOT referring to "college students" in general, much less those pursuing a career in trombone performance or music education.

[asmith]

The author of the post you took issue with specifically stated:

Also, they can be a great transitional horn for students that are ready for an F-attachment but not a large bore. We have a few teachers around my area that really like the Eastman ETB428MG for that exact reason, plus it's pretty cheap. [emphasis mine]

Given that premise, it's difficult to fathom how anyone could miss that the author was NOT referring to "college students" in general, much less those pursuing a career in trombone performance or music education.
[/quote]

I think the post that Harrison took issue with was not necessarily mine, but one a little further down.

Either way, it's not my pedagogical approach just that of teachers whose students happen to frequent my store. Personally, I see the approach as an unnecessary burden on the parents' wallets, but in those situations it is not my place to speak up. I would rather see most of these students playing better on their .500" bore student horn that they struggle to play on rather than sell them a horn they will sell before they are out of high school. However, sometimes parents will trust a teacher and go with them no matter what I say or do.

That being said I think it fulfils a niche for professional player in lighter settings or commercial settings where they need a greater flexibility of tonal ability. Generally, I think they have a place in the market but only fit in a certain niche or suit a particular player.