Sources for .500” leadpipes?

[Bach5G]

Sources of .500” leadpipes (to fit Bach 12)?

[Matt K]

Brassard has a great 32H copy. Shires and Edwards both have several options as well. You can get Yamaha pipes for the 354 which, on paper, isn’t much different than the Bach 12 though I dont honest know how it plays compared to other pipes because I don’t have a comparison at the moment for the slide I have a 354 pipe in.

If I were buying blind, id personally start closer to a shires 1 or 1.5 because that’s typically where Bach style pipes reside. But the 354 would probably be a good fit too and is really cheap.

[gregwaits]

I have a number of Vach 12 factory leadpipes, some shorter (special ordered). If interested let me know.

[gregwaits]

Correction: Bach

[Crazy4Tbone86]

About 15 years ago, I started making press fit .500 bore leadpipes from all of the "standard models" of trombones that were easily available from the Allied Catalog. Most of the leadpipes only require the installation of a collar. Others might require a little more work because they are two-piece (mouthpiece receiver + leadpipe). I try to keep an assortment of about 12 different models in stock.

When I make or rebuild slides, most of them are made with a removable leadpipe system. This allows the musician to try an assortment of leadpipes. If they like one, I sell them the one they chose and then I restock that particular leadpipe.

By far, the most popular .500 leadpipes that are chosen are the Conn 6H (which is the same leadpipe used on the 10H, 16H, 18H and 48H) and the Yamaha YSL-354. Many players find these leadpipes to be very flexible. For the players that want more bite in their sound for lead playing, the King 606 and the Jupiter 432 leadpipes are sometimes selected (both of those are two-piece construction).

I do know of one player who switched from the Yammie 354 pipe to the BrassArk 32H and is very happy with it. However, his horn is not a Bach 12.....it is a 1950s Conn 6H bell with a new Conn slide.

[Thrawn22]

John Sandhagen made me a .500 pipe from a Bach 36 pipe and it's fantastic.

[TromboneMonkey]

John Sandhagen made me a .500 pipe from a Bach 36 pipe and it's fantastic.

I'm going to have to have one of these

[Matt K]

What did John do to make the 36 pipe fit? Cut it shorter or buff it down? (Or both!?) That sounds interesting and certainly the 36 is regarded as one of the better pipes in the Bach lineup.

Brian, I'm also curious as to what the other options you stocked with - you mentioned 12 which is a pretty good selection.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Hey Matt,

I just checked the availability of all of my .500 leadpipes and it looks like a couple are now discontinued. I am going to hold on to those pipes and not list them. Here is the updated list of "student" pipes that I try to keep in stock:

1-Piece Leadpipes:

Bach TB300
Bach TB300 Short/Open (1 inch shorter and venturi is .005 more open)
Blessing B128
Conn 6H (same replacement leadpipe for all .500 bore Conns)
Yamaha YSL-354

2-Piece Leadpipes:

BAC Apprentice (currently not in my stock)
Getzen 351/451
Holton TR602 (currently not my stock)
Jupiter JTB700/730 (formerly model 432)
King 606
King 606 Open (lower side of the receiver and top end of venturi cut/expanded out about .005)


Like I stated earlier, the Conn 6H and the Yamaha 354 are the most popular. The "Open" models are more for my playing, but I kept records of the dimensions so I can recreate them if needed. The Blessing pipes are a mess and I don't recommend them......they seem to arrive with completely different dimensions every time I order them.

A guy came through in November, tried them all and bought the BAC and Holton pipes, which is not common. Thus, I need to restock those particular pipes. I think the best way to find pipes is to try an assortment at the same time. If you have one or two shipped to you at a time, it can be a frustrating process because, on many occasions, you figure it out in the first minute or so that the new pipe(s) don't work for you.

[Matt K]

Very Interesting! I was mostly curious as to what you were comparing it to. Really awesome of you to list out which are 1 piece and which are 2 piece as well. What made you decide to stock just the "student" pipes instead of "professional" ones (obviously with the exception of the 6H)? I was thinking maybe it was because they were 2 piece, but you included the King 606, were the 2b+ pipes unpopular or perhaps just too expensive to warrant keeping in stock?

Sorry full of questions today! What did you do to make the 2 piece pipes work with your ring? I actually just had a 3B pipe replaced with the 32H copper from Brad Close (incidentally, 100% love the pipe). But I was thinking I might make the 3B pipe functional too but that would require a mouthpiece receiver, right? Mostly curious if you find this part to be largely compatible with the horns you put them in or if it was sort of specific to the cork barrel you were placing it in.

Hey Matt,

I just checked the availability of all of my .500 leadpipes and it looks like a couple are now discontinued. I am going to hold on to those pipes and not list them. Here is the updated list of "student" pipes that I try to keep in stock:

1-Piece Leadpipes:

Bach TB300
Bach TB300 Short/Open (1 inch shorter and venturi is .005 more open)
Blessing B128
Conn 6H (same replacement leadpipe for all .500 bore Conns)
Yamaha YSL-354

2-Piece Leadpipes:

BAC Apprentice (currently not in my stock)
Getzen 351/451
Holton TR602 (currently not my stock)
Jupiter JTB700/730 (formerly model 432)
King 606
King 606 Open (lower side of the receiver and top end of venturi cut/expanded out about .005)


Like I stated earlier, the Conn 6H and the Yamaha 354 are the most popular. The "Open" models are more for my playing, but I kept records of the dimensions so I can recreate them if needed. The Blessing pipes are a mess and I don't recommend them......they seem to arrive with completely different dimensions every time I order them.

A guy came through in November, tried them all and bought the BAC and Holton pipes, which is not common. Thus, I need to restock those particular pipes. I think the best way to find pipes is to try an assortment at the same time. If you have one or two shipped to you at a time, it can be a frustrating process because, on many occasions, you figure it out in the first minute or so that the new pipe(s) don't work for you.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Hey Matt,

So many questions! The origins of this began in about 2007. When I was setting up my shop at home, I was noticing a lot of Bach TB300 horns coming through and the leadpipes were horrible! On some of them, the metal was as soft and thin as aluminum foil. Several of them came out in crumbled pieces when I would run a gentle brush through the upper inner slide. When buying replacement leadpipes (the Bach 300TB replacement pipes are actually much better quality than the ones soldered in the instruments), I thought.....why not set up a collection of .500 bore leadpipes? Many different models were available quickly and at a reasonable price in the Allied catalog. The rest is history. I actually have a much more complete collection of leadpipes in other bore sizes. Don't get me started about .547 leadpipes! When pro players come over and try them, they can spend hours trying them and still not decide!

Concerning the King 2B+ leadpipe...I hate to shatter your dreams but, it is exactly the same as the King 606. Exact same part numbers.

On most of my horns, I use a friction fit. Thus, I don't need to worry about threading or matching any particular "system" of leadpipe receiver. The two-piece are very nice because I can usually turn them on my lathe so that they are a perfect fit in my .500 horns. On some of them, the small rim or collar must be cut off After I get the perfect fit, I just custom cut and fit a knurled collar and pop it on there...good to go! I was lucky to catch Chuck McAlexander on a day he was making knurled collars a couple of years before he shut down his shop. He made me about 300 blanks for tenor shank and about 300 blanks for bass shank. I doubt I will ever go through all of them.

[hornbuilder]

Matt.
On a 2 piece leadpipe, the receiver is one of the 2 pieces. They are sold alongside the pipe itself as a separate piece

[Matt K]

Thanks Matt, that's awesome information. Now that you put it like that, that seems embarrassingly obvious now! For some reason, I thought the second piece was part of the cork barrel if it wasn't included as part of the whole pipe... because the only 2 piece I've purchased was a Conn 52H pipe, and it came as a single unit, pre-soldered. Everything else has been taken out and I've only ever received the bottom half back! Is that part harder to remove without damage or perhaps "integral" to cork barrels sometimes maybe?

Concerning the King 2B+ leadpipe...I hate to shatter your dreams but, it is exactly the same as the King 606. Exact same part numbers.

No dreams shattered here! On the contrary, I was hoping it was an answer like that because I haven't totally settled on leadpipe choice for all my horns and your selection is erm, well very likely to be substantially cheaper than going boutique for ALL the bore sizes I have. I didn't see a location but a Google search indicates you may be located in Maryland? I might have to swing by your shop one of these days if I can ever get comfortable leaving my house again

[TromboneMonkey]

Maryland?! I'm also in Maryland. It could be a hang! I have a few .500 pipes but am playing an Olds Studio now so don't ever use them. When I was using my Lawler full-time I used the 32h Brassark pipes in it. Are those the same as the 6h pipe?

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Hey Matt K,

I am sorry if I have not been able to clarify things. I know that many trombone players have not seen many of these components, so I understand that it can be confusing. They always say "a picture is worth a thousand words," so I have attached the photo below of a Jupiter two-piece removable leadpipe for a .500 bore horn.

The part that I am squeezing between my fingers is the mouthpiece receiver section and the part below it is the leadpipe component. In this two-piece construction, the two parts are soldered together before they are installed in the upper inner slide. USUALLY, WHERE I AM SQUEEZING, THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT DIAMETERS....the top half of the receiver would have an outside diameter of about .521 - .525 and the bottom half of the receiver would be either .499 or .500 inch. If it were installed in a normal (non removable leadpipe) horn, the inner slide would fit tightly around the leadpipe AND the LOWER HALF of the mouthpiece receiver and be soldered together. Only then would the entire unit (mouthpiece receiver + leadpipe + inner slide) be soldered in place in the cork barrel. Essentially, the top half of the mouthpiece receiver and the outside surface of the inner slide should have the exact (or very near) same outside diameter.

But wait...now it gets more interesting! If you want to convert a two-piece leadpipe into a removable leadpipe, the entire length of the mouthpiece receiver must be machined to be the same outside diameter. In theory, it should be .500 inch for a snug fit. Thus, I usually machine the mouthpiece receiver (again, the part I am squeezing between my fingers) on a lathe to make it one uniform outside diameter. Then I assemble the leadpipe and install the collar on top. I don't think you can see it in the photo, but I like to taper out the top 1/4 inch of the receiver about 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch so it has a snug fit in the inner slide.

I hope this helps explain things a little better. I am located in central Maryland and players are welcome to come and try leadpipes. I recommend that you give me advanced warning so that I can have as many leadpipes as possible in stock.

https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... w&id=12029

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Maryland?! I'm also in Maryland. It could be a hang! I have a few .500 pipes but am playing an Olds Studio now so don't ever use them. When I was using my Lawler full-time I used the 32h Brassark pipes in it. Are those the same as the 6h pipe?

Hey Trombone Monkey!

I don't think that the 32H and the 6H are the same leadpipes. Actually, the 6H removable leadpipes that I put together play different than the 6H pipes that are in my two Elkhart 6H horns.

I think it is nearly impossible to create two leadpipes that are EXACTLY the same. Any little thing can change how a piece of metal plays. Some examples: burnishing the receiver part longer, using a little more heat while soldering the collar on, etc...

In many ways, I find the uniqueness of every instrument to be one of coolest aspects of being a brass musician. Why does any particular horn play fantastic? Maybe they struck it in a sweet spot with a wooden hammer a few more times when they were forming the bell. Maybe it was dropped and a technician released some brace tension while removing the dents. There is a bit of mystery and wonder to it all.

[JohnL]

What did John do to make the 36 pipe fit? Cut it shorter or buff it down? (Or both!?) That sounds interesting and certainly the 36 is regarded as one of the better pipes in the Bach lineup.

It's been a few years since I talked to him about it, but my recollection is that he turned them down.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I think we need to look at this particular pipe with through the lenses of reality. If you are converting a Bach 36 pipe into a .500 bore pipe, is it really a Bach 36 pipe anymore? I don’t think so. It is just a new custom-made .500 leadpipe.

Consider this analogy: If you start with a 1970s Lincoln Continental Town Car, replace the back half of the vehicle with a pickup truck bed and convert the front half into a convertible roof……is it really a Lincoln Continental anymore?

[JohnL]

I think we need to look at this particular pipe with through the lenses of reality. If you are converting a Bach 36 pipe into a .500 bore pipe, is it really a Bach 36 pipe anymore? I don’t think so. It is just a new custom-made .500 leadpipe.

Consider this analogy: If you start with a 1970s Lincoln Continental Town Car, replace the back half of the vehicle with a pickup truck bed and convert the front half into a convertible roof……is it really a Lincoln Continental anymore?

If the internal dimensions are still the same, I'd argue that it's still a Bach 36 pipe in the same way a Bradley GT is still a Volkswagen Beetle.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

It is impossible for the internal dimensions to be the same. The only thing that could remain the same is the first 1 to 1.5 inches (the mouthpiece receiver part). The remainder of the leadpipe would need to be drawn in .025 inch in order to fit it in the inner slide. If it were drawn in with no internal mandrel, all of the internal dimensions are drawn in as well....it becomes a brand new .500 leadpipe.

Theoretically, it could be drawn over the Bach 36 leadpipe mandrel. However, the metal for leadpipes is usually only about .025 thick. So you would end up with a leadpipe that has paper-thin metal (remember, the outside diameter of the leadpipe must be .500 or slightly smaller) and stretched out to about 16-20 inches long. I guess it could be trimmed to the traditional Bach 36 length, but it would likely crinkle like aluminum foil when you insert it in the inner slide. So, forming it this way seems highly improbable.

I have a some leadpipes that I created for one of my alto trombones, which has a .485 bore on the upper slide. Some of the leadpipes started smaller (.480) and some of them started larger (.490, .491, .495). I consider all of them completely different leadpipes after the dimensions were changed. They were "experiments" and some of them work much better than others.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Hey JohnL,

Sorry that I missed your comment about John Sandhagen reducing the Bach 36 leadpipe by turning it on a lathe. Again, I think it is theoretically possible. I doubt it was cut down with a carbide tip. Leadpipes are usually not perfectly straight, not perfectly round and the metal is already rather thin. I would think that the cutting tool would catch the metal and tear it very easily after a small amount of metal has been removed. Brass is a very gooey, soft metal. Thus, there are limits to how thin you can machine it.

However, I guess the exterior of the leadpipe could be sanded down while on a lathe. Again, my concern would be that the metal would end up paper thin in order for it to fit in the .500 inner slide. Even if it would fit, my fear would be that it would crinkle or collapse when inserted in or removed from the inner slide.

The more I consider this, the more it seems possible. I just think that so many things need to be in delicate balance in order for it to work. I like most of my Bach 36 pipes. If I ever find one that is extremely straight, I might try to sand it down for a .500 bore. I just hope I don’t go through several leadpipes before I get it to work!

[ithinknot]

One more for the list, and should be readily available: the Bach pipe used in the 16 and - in an 'oh, so now we're not even trying' move - the LT16M. It's a .495" pipe (as it should be on one of those models), but that's well within 'tweak the end for a firm but moveable fit in a .500 inner' tolerances.

Before anyone asks, I've pulled two of them (mid 70s and late 80s), and it's definitely a .495 part on the .509 LT16M with no attempt to flare the end to suit. Apart from the questionable acoustics of the loose fit, it leaves a fragile edge vulnerable to cleaning damage, and the installation is unlikely to be concentric to the bore. Can't be the only reason those horns are quirky... but it's gotta be one.

One pull was because of end damage - probably from a cleaning rod - and the resulting wrinkle was trapping water and then spitting it out at random. That pipe was salvageable; with the end annealed, smoothed and unsubtly flared to .507 or so, it was much improved, though other pipes were better choices. The second one had a mashed receiver and was chucked.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Wow, I did not know that the Bach LT16M used a .495 pipe! While you expressed concerns about doing damage to it while cleaning/swabbing, I am far more concerned about the moisture that gets trapped under there and starts the corrosion. That poor trombone design probably has corrosion under the leadpipe before it leaves the retail store.

When people ask me which one is better, soldered leadpipe or removable leadpipe? I always say REMOVABLE LEADPIPE! Yes, having the flexibility of using different leadpipes is wonderful. However, the ability to pull that leadpipe out frequently and clean it (along with the inside of the inner slide) is tremendously valuable. Since that part of the horn is so close to the player’s mouth (source of moisture), it is by far the most vulnerable to lime and calcium buildup, which turns into corrosion.

[ithinknot]

I am far more concerned about the moisture that gets trapped under there and starts the corrosion.

Agree entirely. But even if corrosion weren't a issue, filth would be reason enough to always make them removable.

If you're one of those 'back in my day, you were born, you died, and you wore the same pair of shoes for the duration' types that consider all interchangeable components to be expressions of empire-ending decadence, fine, just stick to the one - but unscrew it now and then and clean your slide properly.

I vaguely understand why they're still soldered on student instruments - cheaper, and one less part for the 5th-graders to pull out and throw at each other - though these are probably also the instruments most in need of a bath/Cheetos exorcism...

[Crazy4Tbone86]

ithinknot,

We are of like mind. I think that placing removable leadpipes on students is actually a decent idea. Knowing how 5th graders think (I teach about 100 of them every day), they will probably will never notice that the leadpipe unscrews. Consider this.....sometimes I show 5th graders how to move their main tuning slides about 7 or 8 weeks in a row before they figure out how to move it on their own. I think the number of trombone leadpipes being thrown around in the classroom would be minimal, even if we teach them how to remove the leadpipe!

My biggest complaint about "student trombone traditions" is the inclusion of SLIDE OIL with a new student trombone. Assuming that students never clean their slides (I teach my students how to clean their slides 4 or 5 times a year, but less than 20% actually do it) that slide oil is horrible. Some oils + some brands of trombones are very bad combinations. The oil gets into the porous brass of the outer slides and just never gets out. I have inherited some student trombones that have taken months to remove that oil damage. The oil gets into the brass and creates a yellowish gel that takes multiple chemical cleans, multiple degreasings and hundreds of swabbings to remove.......what a mess!

Hmmm....how did we get to this topic?

[hornbuilder]

Re the 36 pipe fitting into a .500 tube.

I haven't seen a factory 36 pipe for a while. But, I do remember them being pretty hefty at the exit end. (Is the 36 pipe drawn on a .500 pipe mandrel?) So sanding them down to fit into a 500 would be pretty easy.

If you were to go the route of simply cutting the length to suit, based on some 525 pipes I have in the shop, you would only be removing just over an inch of the length. Maybe not ideal, but it still leaves a decent length pipe.

So, modifying a factory 36 pipe to fit in a 500 tube is very doable. IMO.

[ithinknot]

I haven't seen a factory 36 pipe for a while. But, I do remember them being pretty hefty at the exit end. (Is the 36 pipe drawn on a .500 pipe mandrel?) So sanding them down to fit into a 500 would be pretty easy.

FWIW venturi on my 36 is .418", so it wouldn't be unreasonably open for a .500-.509ish pipe.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I haven't seen a factory 36 pipe for a while. But, I do remember them being pretty hefty at the exit end. (Is the 36 pipe drawn on a .500 pipe mandrel?) So sanding them down to fit into a 500 would be pretty easy.

FWIW venturi on my 36 is .418", so it wouldn't be unreasonably open for a .500-.509ish pipe.

I was certainly a doubter when this "converting a Bach 36 leadpipe to a .500 bore leadpipe" topic first surfaced. Mostly because I was only thinking in terms of drawing down the Bach 36 leadpipe without an internal mandrel. Now, this is seeming more and more feasible to simply sand it down.

I have three Bach 36 leadpipes in my personal collection. These are pulled from horns of the years: 1987, 1991 and 1997. All three of them have a decent thickness of metal on them, ranging from .026 to .030 inch. Of course, there is no guarantee that the metal has a consistent thickness through the entire leadpipe. Taking the leadpipe with the thinnest gauge and removing .025 of metal (keep in mind that you are measuring two sides of the tube) leaves a leadpipe with a metal thickness of .0135 inch. Rather thin, but if handled delicately, should be a functional leadpipe.

There is another little puzzle to solve.....what kind of Bach 36 leapipe do you want to use for such a .500 leadpipe? There is great variation in the Bach 36 venturi measurements. The three that I own are .408, .416 and .405 inch. Ithinknot has a Bach 36 with a .418 venturi. That's four different measurements already, and possibly many other different size venturi on other Bach 36 pipes.

[ithinknot]

One more for the list, and should be readily available: the Bach pipe used in the 16 and - in an 'oh, so now we're not even trying' move - the LT16M. It's a .495" pipe (as it should be on one of those models), but that's well within 'tweak the end for a firm but moveable fit in a .500 inner' tolerances.

Before anyone asks, I've pulled two of them (mid 70s and late 80s), and it's definitely a .495 part on the .509 LT16M with no attempt to flare the end to suit. Apart from the questionable acoustics of the loose fit, it leaves a fragile edge vulnerable to cleaning damage, and the installation is unlikely to be concentric to the bore. Can't be the only reason those horns are quirky... but it's gotta be one.

A thrilling update to this saga, FYI and FWIW:

Ordered a new replacement. Internals and length seem very similar to the 70s/80s examples, but the wall thickness is massively increased throughout, so they're now around .516" at both ends, and then the extremities clearly get turned/sanded/whatevered down to the target OD for .495 or .509 use (only the last 1/4 for .509, a bit further for .495). Better.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Thanks for finding this old thread and posting the update! If the newer leadpipes are designed this way, that is awesome. Let’s hope that all of the modern leadpipes for the 16 and LT16M are the same.

[Cartero16]

Where can I get the Allied catalog?
Thank you.

[hornbuilder]

You have to be a repair tech.

[baileyman]

Can the 36 pipe be swaged down? I'm imagining chucking it in a lathe, then squeezing the end between two oiled 90 degree angles. Intuition suggest it should shrink nicely, but maybe someone has trid this already.

[Matt K]

I would have said no but I do remember someone saying they did that and reported it worked wlll. I can’t remember if it was 508 or 500 but at least one person has reported it works well

[ithinknot]

Can the 36 pipe be swaged down? I'm imagining chucking it in a lathe, then squeezing the end between two oiled 90 degree angles. Intuition suggest it should shrink nicely, but maybe someone has trid this already.

Good luck with that. Even if it didn't collapse, there's zero chance you'd end up with something usably straight, and in any case it would no longer have the 36 internal taper.

Assuming there's enough material in the walls, you could very possibly turn/sand down the OD to fit a .508 inner, though the ends would likely be quite fragile. See my post above re current replacement 16 pipes as supplied from the factory... in that case, you have to do the same, albeit to a lesser extent.

[hornbuilder]

As I said earlier in the thread, turning a 36 pipe down would be pretty easy, (assuming you can get a straight one) the wall thickness at the end of the pipe has more than enough room to machine it down to .500"