Bruckner Symphony no 5 in B flat

[Savio]

I wonder if some can give the chords in the end of the symphony. Played it once and the end is specular with a high F in the bass trombone which is unison and also the highest note in the brass. Then it goes the Bb major scale down to low B flat and ends there in the bass trombone. Listen from here about 22.30 to get it all. ohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP3VsR5t81k

After this he put on a very thick chord. Before he ends up with a clean B flat chord. Amazing but of course he played the organ so chords was one of his strong side.

Leif

[Burgerbob]

Sounds like just A major to me. But almost as if someone plays a C natural on accident and moves to C#, I do hear some thickness there that I can't quite pick out.

Interesting trumpet section sound.

[Savio]

Sounds like just A major to me. But almost as if someone plays a C natural on accident and moves to C#, I do hear some thickness there that I can't quite pick out.

Interesting trumpet section sound.

Listen one more time!

Leif

[Burgerbob]

Sounds like just A major to me. But almost as if someone plays a C natural on accident and moves to C#, I do hear some thickness there that I can't quite pick out.

Interesting trumpet section sound.

Listen one more time!

Leif

Where exactly is the chord you mean? The one I was listening to was at 22:21, so it may have been early.

Derp, the one at 22:37. My bad. Listening!

[Burgerbob]

I think it's just B fully diminished.

[Savio]

Listen one more time!

Leif

Where exactly is the chord you mean? The one I was listening to was at 22:21, so it may have been early.

Derp, the one at 22:37. My bad. Listening!

Just listen to the end and you get it.

Leif

[robcat2075]

If this is a troubling mystery there are scores for several versions of #5 on IMSLP

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Leif,

Your inquiry is a bit confusing, so I will do my best to figure out your concern. As BurgerBob has pointed out, there are two places of "colorful chords" to which you might be referring. One happens at 22:21 and the other at 22:36.

The chord at 22:21 is supposed to be a big fat A major chord. However, either the 1st Horn or the 1st trombone makes a mistake and plays a concert G# for half a beat and slurs it into the A (both instruments are supposed to play a concert A natural). It creates an A-major seventh chord for half a beat which definitely sounds funky.....sort of a 1970s love song appoggiatura! My guess would be that the trombone made the mistake because the horn just finished the previous phrase with that pitch (concert A). However, the principal trombone part had an A-flat in the previous phrase and would be more likely to enter on that phrase with an A-flat instead of A natural.

The chord progression at 22:36 is very unique. By measure it goes: B fully diminished, C-flat major (1st inversion), E fully diminished, which leads nicely into a long sequence of F dominant seventh chords with assorted suspensions. The orchestra performs those pitches with high accuracy, but it does leave the listener hanging in limbo for a few measures.

Leif.....do those explanations help?

[harrisonreed]

Surely this can't be some great mystery. The score is as old as time itself

[Shiny]

I think it’s a fair question to ask about the chords if one isn’t completely up to analysing a full orchestral score. I enjoyed listening to it and it’s certainly interesting to hear it with a focus on the roles of the trombones. As a novice but enthusiastic trombonist I haven’t listened with that particular focus before.

[Savio]

Leif,

Your inquiry is a bit confusing, so I will do my best to figure out your concern. As BurgerBob has pointed out, there are two places of "colorful chords" to which you might be referring. One happens at 22:21 and the other at 22:36.

The chord at 22:21 is supposed to be a big fat A major chord. However, either the 1st Horn or the 1st trombone makes a mistake and plays a concert G# for half a beat and slurs it into the A (both instruments are supposed to play a concert A natural). It creates an A-major seventh chord for half a beat which definitely sounds funky.....sort of a 1970s love song appoggiatura! My guess would be that the trombone made the mistake because the horn just finished the previous phrase with that pitch (concert A). However, the principal trombone part had an A-flat in the previous phrase and would be more likely to enter on that phrase with an A-flat instead of A natural.

The chord progression at 22:36 is very unique. By measure it goes: B fully diminished, C-flat major (1st inversion), E fully diminished, which leads nicely into a long sequence of F dominant seventh chords with assorted suspensions. The orchestra performs those pitches with high accuracy, but it does leave the listener hanging in limbo for a few measures.

Leif.....do those explanations help?

Yes, thanks. It's a nice bass line there!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The fully diminished seventh chord (all minor 3rds or 3 chromatic steps stacked on top of each other) is a magical chord because it can be used as a portal to go to any key center. Essentially, any one of the 4 pitches can be considered a leading tone (one chromatic step below) to a tonal center. If any of the 4 pitches is considered a leading tone, it can easily be used to modulate into 8 different keys…..4 major and 4 minor.

If you start with a fully diminished chord and drop any of the pitches a chromatic step, you now have a dominant 7th chord. Again, depending on which pitch you move, you can go 8 different directions……4 major and 4 minor.

For the real music theory enthusiasts, fully diminished chords can be used as a pseudo secondary dominant chord. That’s what Bruckner did with E fully diminished chord in that recorded sequence. It would be notated as:
vii0/V7 (the 0 and 7 should be superscripted like a footnote)

[Savio]

Thanks Crazy4bones for explaining the chord progression! That's exactly what I was wondering about. I think the hole phrase is wonderful because it's so long from the dominant chord with the high F in bass trombone to the end with a B flat major chord which he really hammer in to the end. Not anything new here, but it's still genius.

I like Bruckner's long phrases. Also unique to him is his long silence that happens in some of his symphonies. I remember he explained this with you need a big silent breath before saying something of importance.

Anyway thanks for explaining the chord progression! I'm not good at naming or understand chords

Leif

[CalgaryTbone]

Surely this can't be some great mystery. The score is as old as time itself

The score's been around a while, but more recent than a lot of classical music. Also, Bruckner was famous for doing revisions of his symphonies, so it's quite possible that there are multiple versions of the piece out there.

Jim Scott

[harrisonreed]

Surely this can't be some great mystery. The score is as old as time itself

The score's been around a while, but more recent than a lot of classical music. Also, Bruckner was famous for doing revisions of his symphonies, so it's quite possible that there are multiple versions of the piece out there.

Jim Scott

Gotcha. I figured it would have been one of those pieces that has been analyzed to death by students over the years, whose dissertation papers could easily be looked up. I'm out of my depth with serious musical analysis so that's what I usually lean on.

[CalgaryTbone]

I'm sure there's a dissertation or two out there, but Bruckner is one of those composers who has a certain following of enthusiastic fans and a group of detractors that is just as enthusiastic. There are lots of academics in the latter group. I don't remember any Bruckner works coming out for analysis in any theory classes, or Music History lectures.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Funny you should say that CalgaryTbone! I do remember the 2nd movement of Bruckner #7 being used in one of my theory/score study classes. However, I believe Bruckner #7 was used specifically because the piece has the Wagner Tuba parts (in B-flat and in F) and the professor wanted to expose us to the transposition of those particular instruments.