Alternate positions & conical bore ?

[aboumaia]

...

[Matt K]

If you think about it, when you're slide is in 1st position, you don't have any* air going through the outer slide, it just goes from the inner slide, to the crook, and then to the inner of the lower leg. When you're in 7th, most of the air is going through both the inner of the upper leg, then the outer of the lower leg, then the outer of the lower leg, then, finally, the inner of the lower leg. Therefore, there is more of the larger bore the further out positionwise you are, and less of the larger bore the closer to 1st position you are.

With dual bore, that effect is magnified because you are going from the outer of the smaller to the outer of the larger.


*Depending on how the inners interface with the crook.

[harrisonreed]

It's a confusing premise -- a trombone slide is cylindrical. No matter how far you extend it, it's cylindrical. Maybe the crook expands for dual bore, but that doesn't change either, no matter how far you extend it.

[Kbiggs]

My theory: the vibrating air column in the horn goes through several changes in bore. In a .547 horn, for example, the air column is first “excited” around the point of the mouthpiece throat. After that, the column expands through the leadpipe, and then into the inner slide.

If you’re in 1st position, there’s a small “bump” between the end of the slide and the crook. Once you extend the outer slide, you have an air column that goes from .547 to something larger, often around .558 to .562. Then the air column goes through the crook, which can either match the inner slide bore or is sometimes larger. Then it goes into the outer slide, and then to the inner slide.

All these slight changes in bore size affect the “feel” of notes. Notes in 5th, 6th and 7th position “feel” different in part due to these changes in bore size. The longer “cylindrical” portion of the horn, e.g. the slide, of course has a larger influence on the feel of the note.

Note also that the ratio of “cylindrical” tubing (the slide) to “conical” tubing (the bell section) also affects the feel of the note. The longer the slide position, the greater the effect of this difference in slide to bell section ratio.

What does this mean for the player? Not much, except that it’s a constant challenge to make alternate positions and lower slide positions sound “the same as” upper slide positions.

[baileyman]

Tom's distinction makes no sense to me as far as extending the slide for singles versus dualies. However extension changes the relative length of conical vs cylindrical, but that should be noticeable no matter whether single or dual bore. Usually someone will say on this topic that the outer notes sound "worse". Sure, the further out the more the sound changes, but maybe all they need is practice time. I have a number of similar sized horns both single and dualie and I do not hear what Tom is saying.

[harrisonreed]

Outer positions just need a different tongue position to sounds good.

[Cmillar]

All I know is that when I switched slides on my Bach 16M bell, alternate positions became more 'useable'.

I got this horn with a brass Bach 16 duo-bore slide (495.- 509.)

But when I got hold of a very nice Bach 16M silver slide (509.) things improved dramatically.

[spencercarran]

It's a confusing premise -- a trombone slide is cylindrical. No matter how far you extend it, it's cylindrical. Maybe the crook expands for dual bore, but that doesn't change either, no matter how far you extend it.

The overall ratio of cylindrical:conical tubing in the instrument certainly does change as a function of slide position, though. Not sure about Malone's exact phrasing (I find it a bit confusing to follow) but Kbiggs's description seems right on. Different slide positions mean the horn will respond a bit differently, and a proficient trombonist will have to find ways to compensate for this in their technique (you mention tongue position, others suggest changes in air use, etc).

[Matt K]

Interestingly, I almost always use 4th position for D next to middle C. I find it to be more natural for most things I'm playing but also it just resonates better for me. I didn't ntoice I was doing it until recently when I started playing with a G attachment because I was over using it intentionally to get used to it and realized I was using 4th D for things that may be better in 1st.

[BGuttman]

Interestingly, I almost always use 4th position for D next to middle C. I find it to be more natural for most things I'm playing but also it just resonates better for me. I didn't ntoice I was doing it until recently when I started playing with a G attachment because I was over using it intentionally to get used to it and realized I was using 4th D for things that may be better in 1st.

One reason to avoid D in 1st is because it is just a little flat. If you tune Bb to the bumpers you won't have any room to sharpen that note. Playing in 4th gives you room to adjust. Now if you tune Bb off the bumpers by about 1/2 inch (12 mm) you will have plenty of room to sharpen the D.

[Matt K]

I typically play with the tuning slide in so that is seldom an issue for me!

[Posaunus]

I typically play with the tuning slide in so that is seldom an issue for me!

My 88H has bumper springs, so it's pretty easy to sharpen notes in 1st position. (Though my D isn't really very flat. )

[Pezza]

Like all playing aspects it's all about practice. If you don't practice alternate positions, especially longer positions, you will struggle when you need to use them, no matter what your slide is.

[aboumaia]

...

[Pezza]

I drive other players nuts by using alt positions when not necessary, or playing a whole piece on the F side!

Learnt the hard way not to do it at gigs, it really puts some players off.

I think it won't matter what type of slide you use, like any new horn it's just a matter of getting used to it. If you're not used to dual bore it'll all feel strange at 1st.

Personally I'm not a fan of dual bores. I borrowed a dual bore bass a few years ago, just didn't work for me. Same as play testing dual tenors.

Good luck in your search.

[spencercarran]

Not sure about Malone's exact phrasing (I find it a bit confusing to follow)

Here is Malone's exact phrasing

TomMalone.jpeg

Yeah, he's just incorrect there, as a literal description of the internal shape of a trombone.

[hyperbolica]

I've played a lot of dual bores, and I tend to prefer them. Aside from dual bore bass where the "dual bore" means 562/578. I like 547/562 basses. The saying goes that it "blows like the top sounds like the bottom". That strikes me as about right. Olds basses tended to have the smaller dual bore sizes, and I've had a lot of fun with those. I had a 1930's 70h with dual bore - again a very efficient instrument in terms of air and weight. The 30h and 32h are both dual bore, and are some nice players, but not for everyone. I currently own an Olds Recording 495/510 which is a very comfortable horn to play. The 2b is probably the most popular dual bore out there, and is a great instrument for what it does all around.

The outer positions can be somewhat more diffuse in sound, but the difference is subtle from the audience point of view. You may be able to brighten the tone somewhat at the mouthpiece to help keep it consistent all the way down the slide, if that really bothers you.

I play a lot of alt positions. Sometimes I notice other players will change to match me when I do that. Sometimes not.

[baileyman]

Malone's statement could be another example of how people describe things in a way that makes perfect sense to them but is difficult for others to "translate" to their own understanding. Physically, I don't get it, but in terms of feel I assume he's making sense.

Meanwhile, there are close positions and far positions, and they can all be played equally well if learned. Sure, far positions sound different from close. 2nd sounds different from 1st, too, but we're used to that. The far position thing could be a consequence of Benford's law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law

[Kbiggs]

One reason to avoid D in 1st is because it is just a little flat. If you tune Bb to the bumpers you won't have any room to sharpen that note. Playing in 4th gives you room to adjust. Now if you tune Bb off the bumpers by about 1/2 inch (12 mm) you will have plenty of room to sharpen the D.

This really depends on the individual instrument and how you tune the horn overall. Some horns have an in-tune D in 1st, and others it’s flat. If you tune with the handslide off the bumpers on a Bach 42, it can be in-tune. Even when the D is flat it can be used e.g. in a Bb major chord, a Cb7 chord, or other places where you might need a flat 3rd.

[brassmedic]

One reason to avoid D in 1st is because it is just a little flat. If you tune Bb to the bumpers you won't have any room to sharpen that note. Playing in 4th gives you room to adjust. Now if you tune Bb off the bumpers by about 1/2 inch (12 mm) you will have plenty of room to sharpen the D.

This really depends on the individual instrument and how you tune the horn overall. Some horns have an in-tune D in 1st, and others it’s flat. If you tune with the handslide off the bumpers on a Bach 42, it can be in-tune. Even when the D is flat it can be used e.g. in a Bb major chord, a Cb7 chord, or other places where you might need a flat 3rd.

Agree; it depends on the instrument. For me it's in tune on a Bach 42. On a Shires .547 bore, it's actually sharp.