Lexcerpts

[JCBone]

https://www.lexcerpts.com/
Very strange. What is this even supposed to mean?

[BGuttman]

The piece of sheet music shown in the link is typical "Negro Music" of the early 20th Century, similar to Lassus Trombone. The page links to a download of some practice materials. The more "woke" among us will most certainly take offense at the linked page.

[Burgerbob]

Keep on boomin', Bruce.

[Bach5G]

Even the barely “woke” might take offence.

[BGuttman]

Keep on boomin', Bruce.

I don't take offense at it. It is what it is. The question is whether it was used as a means to try to poke the Millennials.

Would I write a piece and give it that name? No. I won't intentionally insult anybody.

[mbarbier]

No. I won't intentionally insult anybody.

Exceptt that you've been directly told on a number of these threads how offensive some of the things you defend are. It's also been pointed out that the words you've used are deeply offensive (and had this pointed out by members of those communities). You've continually dismissed it when this has been brought up or insultingly dismissed those who have pointed it out. Since the threads where this was pointed out by a sizable portion of the community you've doubled down by constantly warning people about the "woke" portion of the community instead of taking an opportunity to listen, learn, or challenge yourself to consider that maybe you might be wrong or have things you need to consider, so I really struggle to see how you can say that you wouldn't intentionally insult anyone given how different your actions on these threads have been.




Anyways....that page is pretty messed up.

[JCBone]

I know what the book title means. I just don't get what it has to do with orchestral excerpts.

[WilliamLang]

nothing. someone made that website to troll people, and it doesn't deserve anymore attention.

[afugate]

nothing. someone made that website to troll people, and it doesn't deserve anymore attention.

Agreed.
--Andy in OKC

[BGuttman]

Sidelight on composer Leroy White:

Texas native Le Roy "Lasses" White, whose last name gave away his birth race, but his stage persona and appearance for many years suggested otherwise.

His birth name was Leroy Robert White, but he put it through various permutations during his adult life, Leroy, born in Wills Point, Texas, was the youngest child of Texas natives Edmond Charleston White and Panola Martin Hatchett. His older siblings included Anna Mae (9/27/1874), Leta "Lettie" Ann 10/11/1876), Robert Quinn (10/17/1878), William Edmond (9/3/1880), and Edna Earle (9/11/1882). The 1880 census showed Edmond to be a farmer in Cherokee County, Texas. He died at some point during the early-to-mid-1890s, leaving Panola and her children to fend for themselves. The 1900 enumeration found the family living in Dallas, Texas, with Panola and Edna working as seamstresses, Robert as a blacksmith, and William as an apprentice in a machine shop. Leroy was still in school at age 11.

It is not clear what type of music education Leroy received either in the Dallas schools or privately, but he showed a natural talent for entertaining, and was inspired by some of the shows he saw coming through Dallas in the 1900s. Among those that he found a connection with was the soon to be dying institution of minstrelsy, that of white entertainers (sometimes black as well), many in blackface, emulating alleged Negro entertainment with comedy sketches of questionable merit, and a variety of old-time songs.lasses' blues cover Many, including Leroy (and ultimately nationally famous entertainers Al Jolson and Eddie Cantor, considered blackface entertainment to be an homage to the black race. Jolson even commented that it helped to amplify the expression of his mouth and eyes from the seats in the back of the room. It remains controversial a century and more later, but minstrelsy was still a viable competitor to vaudeville and stage musicals as late as the 1910s, albeit on the decline by that time.

Note that at that time Minstrelsy was considered proper entertainment, although I don't know how Black folks of the era felt about it (they may just have shut up and avoided any controversy since complaining could get you killed). This type of entertainment lasted until the 1940s with Amos 'n Andy (two white actors in blackface) and Jack Benny's chauffeur, Rochester (Ed Anderson, an African-American actor).

Minstrelsy and the music of the genre should be appreciated for itself and merits (or lack thereof) just like we consider Motets or Fusion Jazz.

While many cringe at the images of the period, there are collectors of this kind of stuff -- and many of them are African-Americans. I'm sure they don't admire the Lawn Jockeys or people in blackface making corny jokes, but they consider them to be as much heritage as Black congressmen of the Reconstruction era.

[Burgerbob]

https://www.lexcerpts.com/
Very strange. What is this even supposed to mean?

Honest question, how did you even find this?

[Burgerbob]

Note that at that time Minstrelsy was considered proper entertainment,

And now it's not.

Minstrelsy and the music of the genre should be appreciated for itself and merits (or lack thereof) just like we consider Motets or Fusion Jazz.

No.

[ithinknot]

Discussed here - https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/vie ... abf8b2f713 -
with reference to https://www.si.umich.edu/people/faces-u ... gen-le-roy

Somewhere, someone is making a point of some sort.

Best to move on.

[BGuttman]

Note that at that time Minstrelsy was considered proper entertainment,

And now it's not.

Minstrelsy and the music of the genre should be appreciated for itself and merits (or lack thereof) just like we consider Motets or Fusion Jazz.

No.

So, help me to understand.

You disapprove of any bad representation of African-Americans because it's in poor taste.

Do you also disapprove of any of the following?

The comic strip "Bringing Up Father" for its portrayal of Irish-Americans as uncultured louts?
The song "Baba-Lou" for its portrayal of Hispanics as uncultured boobs?
Sixtus Beckmesser in "Die Meistersinger" portraying Jews as officious nerds? Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" portraying Jews as venial?

Or are you solely concerned about not looking "uncaring about Blacks"?

Note that many ethnic minorities have each taken a turn "in the barrel" at being scorned by White America. For that matter, even Mormons.

I say we can't undo history; we can only try to not follow its more offensive teachings.

[Burgerbob]

So, help me to understand.

It's been done by me and many others at this point. No thanks.

Stop.

[Bach5G]

Bruce asked:

“Do you also disapprove of any of the following?

The comic strip "Bringing Up Father" for its portrayal of Irish-Americans as uncultured louts?
The song "Baba-Lou" for its portrayal of Hispanics as uncultured boobs?
Sixtus Beckmesser in "Die Meistersinger" portraying Jews as officious nerds? Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" portraying Jews as venial?”

Yes.

[timothy42b]

Minstrelsy and the music of the genre should be appreciated for itself and merits (or lack thereof) just like we consider Motets or Fusion Jazz.

I'll make this a one-and-done then escape, because I know what is likely to happen.

I suggest that the answer to that is no, as others have suggested, but for a different reason.

Consider offensiveness on the X axis and merit on the Y. One possibility is to draw a cutoff line. High offensiveness and low merit, easy to discard; high merit and low offensiveness, easy to retain. Then you can argue about what the slope of that line should be, or if it would be logical to draw four quadrants.

BGuttman's suggestion looks at merit alone and ignores level of offensiveness, which can vary. (Not all agree it can vary.)

I'm not convinced that the continuum is the right way to go, but it is the default in the orchestral world, isn't it?

I know we have people here who would say we need never look at the merit axis, and the extreme view would probably say there is no level of offensiveness that is tolerable. But that's not common practice - the same people who reject Lassus blissfully play Wagner, so by default a two axis calculation is already in place.

[Redthunder]

This forum is embarrassing.

[mbarbier]

So, help me to understand.

It's been done by me and many others at this point. No thanks.

Stop.

+1. Seriously.

also yes, literally all of those things are offensive and a huge number of them are still societal the basis for discrimination today. This isn't a collection of forgotten memories. Do you actually not see this, Bruce? We can (and have) explained this stuff till we're all blue in the face but you haven't listened to any of it. At a certain you've gotta do the work yourself. It's uncomfortable to sit with this stuff as a white person and a male bodied one, but we all gotta do it.

[Kbiggs]

This forum is embarrassing.

I disagree. It seems to me that this thread—and the other thread discussing Doug Yeo’s article on Fillmore’s Lassus Trombone—are healthy discussions that need to take place not only for musicians, but (more importantly) for the public at large.

I believe we can disagree without being disagreeable, and we can acknowledge other’s views without judging them.

I disagree with some of what is written on this and that other thread, but I respect the many individuals involved in the discussion, even when their arguments may be invalid and when I do not share their beliefs.

[Bach5G]

.

[timothy42b]

This forum is embarrassing.

I disagree. It seems to me that this thread—and the other thread discussing Doug Yeo’s article on Fillmore’s Lassus Trombone—are healthy discussions that need to take place not only for musicians, but (more importantly) for the public at large.

I believe we can disagree without being disagreeable, and we can acknowledge other’s views without judging them.

I disagree with some of what is written on this and that other thread, but I respect the many individuals involved in the discussion, even when their arguments may be invalid and when I do not share their beliefs.

I agree. (I know I said I'd leave but this seemed like it needed to be said.)

I do think it is possible to discuss with less vitriol, and that this enables reaching out to the moderates among the group. We haven't always done that.

[Bach5G]

The extremists always shout the loudest it seems.

[JCBone]

https://www.lexcerpts.com/
Very strange. What is this even supposed to mean?

Honest question, how did you even find this?

Someone sent me a digital copy of the book and I opened it up and clicked by accident on some link.

[spencercarran]

So, help me to understand.

You disapprove of any bad representation of African-Americans because it's in poor taste.

Do you also disapprove of any of the following?

The comic strip "Bringing Up Father" for its portrayal of Irish-Americans as uncultured louts?
The song "Baba-Lou" for its portrayal of Hispanics as uncultured boobs?
Sixtus Beckmesser in "Die Meistersinger" portraying Jews as officious nerds? Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" portraying Jews as venial?

Or are you solely concerned about not looking "uncaring about Blacks"?

Note that many ethnic minorities have each taken a turn "in the barrel" at being scorned by White America. For that matter, even Mormons.

I say we can't undo history; we can only try to not follow its more offensive teachings.

Context matters; material that "punches up" is usually less harmful than material that "punches down." All of the examples you pose seem questionable at the least, but, for example, "what about discrimination against the Irish?" is a lazy and mostly ahistoric cop-out to avoid grappling with America's legacy of anti-Blackness.

There's plenty of nuanced conversations to be had about media that aged poorly in one way or another, but "minstrelsy is bad" is a pretty easy and uncontroversial line to draw. I won't speculate on why you feel a need to muddy the waters.

[Matt K]

I don’t see anyone seeking to avoid grappling with anything here. I see people who basically have slightly varying degrees of agreement with the idea that minstrelry is deeply offensive.

[brassmedic]

Well, as long as we’re having a discussion, here are a couple of things that I’ve been thinking about:

1. J Gruden nails the woke unholy Trinity in his emails: racism, mysogyny and homophobia. Some black players have stood up for him (not sure if any women or gay men have). Is it possible that Gruden is just a jerk?

2. Last night was pride night at the MLS soccer game. Present and prominent in the pre-game ceremonies was CS, a local drag celebrity who, among other contributions, performed a heavily camped up version of the national anthem. I wondered: is the gay community embarrassed by this stereotype (sort of like “minstrelsy”) For example, the team could have had the Vancouver Men’s Chorus sing both anthems in a musical, tasteful, and dignified way. Or, assuming drag is a characteristic or traditional component of gay culture, does the gay community resent the straight culture for misappropriation and other gay men for selling out?

Aaaand...the requisite "whataboutism". Yawn.

[harrisonreed]

Why is this drivel in the teaching and learning section? That hyperlink leads to the most suspicious looking website I've ever seen. And it links to a 1.5GB file on the home page. I wouldn't touch it. Why share this?

It certainly isn't about excerpts, which people actually might look for in "Teaching and Learning". It ain't about trombones either.

[Bach5G]

Well, as long as we’re having a discussion, here are a couple of things that I’ve been thinking about:

Aaaand...the requisite "whataboutism". Yawn.

It wasn’t intended as such. I’m sorry you interpreted it that way.

[brassmedic]

Aaaand...the requisite "whataboutism". Yawn.

It wasn’t intended as such. I’m sorry you interpreted it that way.

I'm sorry you posted it.

[Bach5G]

It wasn’t intended as such. I’m sorry you interpreted it that way.

I'm sorry you posted it.

I’ll meet you half way on this Brad. See above.

[brassmedic]

Well you're not going to succeed in turning this into a friendly discussion. It is already a huge train wreck. Sorry to say, you're just making things worse.

[Bach5G]

Well you're not going to succeed in turning this into a friendly discussion. It is already a huge train wreck. Sorry to say, you're just making things worse.

Yes. Of course. What was I thinking?

[brassmedic]

Well you're not going to succeed in turning this into a friendly discussion. It is already a huge train wreck. Sorry to say, you're just making things worse.

Yes. Of course. What was I thinking?

No idea.