King 3B vs 3B+ difference

[Matt K]

I know this was talked about at length over the years but I cant' seem to find anything with 60 seconds of Googling that is as illuminating as I'd prefer with my millenial attention span so, with that said, is the only difference between these models the slide & the tenon? I seem to remember that being the case but couldn't quite recall if there was anything else.

[Briande]

3B = .508 bore
3B+ = .525 bore

[dukesboneman]

I have played both and I hope this makes sense.
a 3B+ plays more like a larger 3B
unlike a Bach 36 which tends to play more like a smaller 42

[afugate]

I have played both and I hope this makes sense.
a 3B+ plays more like a larger 3B
unlike a Bach 36 which tends to play more like a smaller 42

I can attest to the 3B vis-a-vis the 3B+. It plays like a little larger 3B.

I'm not a Bach guy, so I can't comment on the second assertion by DukesBoneman.

--Andy in OKC

[BGuttman]

I have played both and I hope this makes sense.
a 3B+ plays more like a larger 3B
unlike a Bach 36 which tends to play more like a smaller 42

I can attest to the 3B vis-a-vis the 3B+. It plays like a little larger 3B.

I'm not a Bach guy, so I can't comment on the second assertion by DukesBoneman.

--Andy in OKC

I have and I can attest to what dukesboneman (Dave) says.

Note that parts are not interchangeable between the 3B and 3B+

[Burgerbob]

Well, I think everyone missed the point of Matt's post. He's well aware of the bore size difference and that some parts aren't interchangeable.

I'm pretty sure that you're right, Matt, the tenon and slide are the only actual differences.

[JLivi]

I'd be curious to know the same thing. Sounds like your question hasn't quite been answered.

I've been a 3b player for 18 years and would love to add a 3b+ to my stable. Although I might be leaning towards a different medium bore with a valve, that's not a 36b.

The valve wrap of most 3b+'s I've seen online look different than 3bf's, but it could be the 3bf's from a certain era. Does anyone know how the valves might be different?

I believe it would be safe to assume the tuning slides are different too. (This might be a dumb statement)

Note that parts are not interchangeable between the 3B and 3B+

If the slides were interchangeable that would be amazing! Sadly not the case.

[Andre1966tr]

Tuning slides are the same...the 3B+ is a tad more mellow and open but not as much different as you might think.
A 6H and 78H are more apart from each other

[Andre1966tr]

Good for 2nd and 3rd in an big band, for Jazz combo...you need a little more endurance because of the bore.
I had a few of them..very nice horn but not ideal choice when you play lead or long gigs...

[Matt K]

Indeed, Aiden is correct but I should have known better than to make an offhanded "other than the slide" as part of a question when that's half the instrument!

My recollection is the bell section was the same other than the slide receiver. That does seem to be the case. I was thinking of keeping my eyes out for a 3b+ although I might just see if I can swap the tempo 525 slide I have in now that I think about it... switch out the tenon or something.

Makes sense that the perception of the 36/42 is that the 36 is smaller than the 42 since they share the bell section other than the .5" in the flare. Similar, the 3B vs 3b+ would feel like a pairing since they too have essentially the same bell section!

[BGuttman]

Thing is, the 3B doesn't feel like a "small 4B". It feels like a "large 3B".

[Matt K]

Yeah, that's actually one thing I wish I could change about the Yamaha too. They are all built on the large bore chassis. The tuning slides are interchangeable; I can't say if they're identical or not... it makes for some really interesting horns. But it got me thinking if the 3B is similar to the 3B+ what a medium bore on the "smaller side" of things would be like vs. one that I'm used to which is exclusively Yamaha horns (356, 446, 646, & 645), Bachs (36) and Shires all of which are "large bore" bell sections with medium bore slides.

[Posaunus]

So if the 3B+ uses essentially the same bell section (same gooseneck, tuning slide, and bell flare as the standard 3B, with only a different slide receiver), isn't the bell a bit restrictive for the larger-bore slide?

Doesn't this throw off the balance of the wonderful original 3B design that so many of us know and love?

No wonder the King 3B+ doesn't resemble a Bach 36 - completely different design concepts!

[Burgerbob]

So if the 3B+ uses essentially the same bell section (same gooseneck, tuning slide, and bell flare as the standard 3B, with only a different slide receiver), isn't the bell a bit restrictive for the larger-bore slide?

Doesn't this throw off the balance of the wonderful original 3B design that so many of us know and love?

No wonder the King 3B+ doesn't resemble a Bach 36 - completely different design concepts!

The 3B is pretty big in the bell section. If anything, the original leadpipe (and slide to an extent) are a little small for it in some ways.

The lower tuning slide leg on a 3B is just about the same size as a 42 lower tuning slide leg.

[djkennedy]

A great 3B+
Is the 608!!!!!!
Fantastic
A buddy from Branson came looking
I was afraid he would fall in luv w the
First gen + wfatt but no after trying Great HNWhite 3Bssf
And 3Bf and the old +
It was a misc 608 that took the play test!!!!!!!
Now if only they made straight 608s!!!!

[brassmedic]

3B+ is bigger. Therefore it is better.

Kidding.

[Finetales]

The valve wrap of most 3b+'s I've seen online look different than 3bf's, but it could be the 3bf's from a certain era. Does anyone know how the valves might be different?

3BFs don't all have quite the same valve wrap. Older ones (like mine) go straight up from the valve before going back, while newer ones (like Burgerbob's) angle forward from the rotor before going back, like on the 3B+F or 607F/608F. They have a larger paddle as well. Dunno if there are any 3B+Fs in the older configuration.

Yeah, that's actually one thing I wish I could change about the Yamaha too. They are all built on the large bore chassis. The tuning slides are interchangeable; I can't say if they're identical or not... it makes for some really interesting horns. But it got me thinking if the 3B is similar to the 3B+ what a medium bore on the "smaller side" of things would be like vs. one that I'm used to which is exclusively Yamaha horns (356, 446, 646, & 645), Bachs (36) and Shires all of which are "large bore" bell sections with medium bore slides.

The 36 and 3B+ have been described on here as feeling like a small big horn vs. a big small horn respectively, and I think that's accurate and consistent with how they are designed. I think there is a place for both ways of doing a .525, even though most are of the "small big horn" variety.

[Matt K]

The valve wrap of most 3b+'s I've seen online look The 36 and 3B+ have been described on here as feeling like a small big horn vs. a big small horn respectively, and I think that's accurate and consistent with how they are designed. I think there is a place for both ways of doing a .525, even though most are of the "small big horn" variety.

To this day, the best slide I've ever had was a T0825GLW. Originally it had the smaller tenon... actually what appears to be a Bach tenon. At the time, Ben Griffin indicated they had never sold such a slide in that configuration when I bought a medium bore tenon to put back on it, so it must have been an aftermarket mod. But for some period of time, someone may have had a goldilocks horn that was between the big small bore and small large bore with whatever bell was on it. Maybe

Seems to me like the King 3BF might actually be a "small medium" horn rather than a true smallbore based on other charactieristics which might be why mine is working so well for me. I've got a 32H pipe in copper on order too that I'm really interested to see how it sits with this one. I've got nickel slides too. I feel like I might be getting closer to goldilocks for me. Something something about the real win was the journey, not the destination.

[tejasbonedog]

I've just joined to respond to this chat about the 3B plus. I've had a similar curiosity, being a lover of the 36 for years, although I toured and recorded with a 6H victor w/lightweight slide(5H?) during most of my college and post college touring years-the 5 H was a very responsive and would cut when I needed it too. It almost reflected how I played-it could be warm and gentle but then accelerate to hot and snappy! It was my favorite small bore, even though my school mates all played LT16M's and 2B's or 3B's and the occasional 12, I was the lone conn 5h player it seemed. Was it because Watrous influenced so many playing the 16's? perhaps, but everyone sounded amazing at North Texas anyways-I was the odd man out, barely hanging with the genius players. I did play with a different sound and soul-I listened to Teagarden, JJ and Kai, but also Mangelsdorff and Ray Anderson which no one did at the time, it was the mid 80's I guess?

But I came across a pristine 1965(my birthdate)SS 3B without slide and finally contacted BAC to talk about making me a slide. I had played an Elliott Mason artist horn and pretty much liked it-it had that .500/.522 slide and it felt like the 6H, but opened up like the 36, so I started thinking...what if I had them make me a .500/.525 slide to go on the 3B? It will be nickel silver and lightweight hoping to make the SS bell brighten a bit too. I'm waiting on it as we speak and will let y'all know if interested? I'm not normally a dual bore player, mostly because they're usually on smaller horns like 2B's but like the idea that I might get that 6H feel and 36 sound and hopefully create an interestingly and compelling hybrid, like the 8H and LTWT 36 slide combo(it's my favorite right now). I think I'm a bigger bore player but like jazz and pop gigs, so looking for that "goldilocks" horn too!

[Matt K]

I suspect it'll play pretty well. I actually had Aidan recommend a 607F which I picked up and did a similar modification to. It's currently in the shop having a Getzen 3508Y bell added to it but even with the 607F bell, the 500/525 on it plays fantastic!

[Fairlane57]

I currently have two excellent 3B+ straight trombones for sale in Phoenix. One has a brass bell and the other has a sterling silver bell. Definitely a 3b on steroids. Great playing trombones.

[imsevimse]

I have owned a few 3b and they are great if you are in great shape. I also thought of buying a 3b+ but instead I bought a Benge 175f. A Benge 175f feels and blows a lot like a King. The trigger is better on the Benge compared to a 3b+, what else?

/Tom

[MrHCinDE]

As to the original question about the differences, I have a 3B and 3B+, other than the slide bore, the other main difference is the bell material. My 3B+ is rose brass, the 3B is yellow. It does look like the rose brass on my 3B+ is different to the current gold brass option, can’t be 100% sure though thanks to the somewhat overpowering lacquer. My 3B+ is probably from the 1st gen, later ones may be different again.

Anyway, my 3B+ has some recognizeable characteristics from the 3B but in some ways is a bit easier to play, just slightly more forgiving. It doesn’t need much air to really start resonating so I default to it when I’m playing a gig right after a few weeks off from playing due to illness etc. I bought it as a backup for dodgy gigs but have played it almost as much as my beloved large bore setup in recent times.