Setting up my new trombone

[BaritoneJack]

I've just bought a tenor trombone (a John Packer 132.R), and am just about to check it out and set up the tuning slides - so it's fortunate that I came across some 'new to me' info on another thread about a trombone which "seems to play sharp".
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21750

When I had a trombone before, and was having lessons from another player in the band, she never queried the fact that I had it set so that 1st position was with the slide hard against the stop, and my tuning slide pulled out about 3/4". One of the things I found awkward to deal with was in trying to move from, say, 6th position to 1st without the slide going clank as it hit the stop. But these quotes from that other thread explain a lot - in particular, this point made by SwissTbone - "I have my first position always out a little. How can you fine-tune your first position notes otherwise?"

I really should have thought of that one, because I did notice before that if I set the slide on 5th position (I think?), and then played a progression of notes, there was one note where I had to shift the slide position quite noticeably to get it on pitch - so although I wasn't aware of it at the time, I can well believe that the same applies to notes played on 1st position, too.

Other quotes from the same thread:
Doug Elliott - "My first position is at least an inch out, and I usually keep my tuning slide all the way in."
Harrison Reed - "Always tune your Ab to the bell, especially if that puts the tuning slide at 0 to .5" pulled - the rest of the notes will sort themselves out. It's really arbitrary though. As long as you can play both a Bb and B natural on the Bb horn, your instrument is in tune regardless of where your main tuning slide or Ab is. The main handslide is your tuning slide, and playing long on that opens up lots of possibilities. So just push your tuning slide in all the way unless B natural falls off the end of your slide. Bb should be off of the bumpers about the distance your tuning slide is pulled, not in a closed first position."

Thank you, gentlemen - I shall follow your advice!

With best regards,
Jack

[timothy42b]

You have to play 7 positions in tune, not just one. Well, more than 7 if you count the upper notes you have to adjust.

I think it helps to record playing slow scales or simple tunes and listen hard. Playing really well in tune can't be taken for granted.

[BaritoneJack]

You have to play 7 positions in tune, not just one. Well, more than 7 if you count the upper notes you have to adjust.

Of course - but the point made by SwissTbone relates to the fact that even when a range of notes are all played on, say, 5th position, that 5th position won't necessarily be in exactly the same spot for all of those notes (as I found when I played trombone before). Regardless of how the tuning slide is set, adjusting the exact points for all notes on 2nd to 7th positions is easy; just tweak the slide slightly in or out if required. But, as he says, you must also be able to do that same adjustment for all notes played on 1st position, too.

If you set the tuning slide so that Bb on 1st position is exactly in tune with the slide up against the bumper, what happens if a higher note, also played on 1st position, is slightly flat? You can't pull the slide in any further, because it's hard up against the bumper - so all you can do is to lip it up, which affects the sound. If, though, you set the tuning slide so that Bb in 1st position is a fraction of an inch off the bumper, then you are able to tweak it inwards if another note on 1st position is a bit flat - as you can with the range of notes for all other positions.

With best regards,
Jack

[BGuttman]

There are trombones with springs instead of hard bumpers that allow some adjustment of 1st position notes in the sharp end.

I think ideally you would want the sharpest 1st position note in tune at the bumper. That note varies from instrument to instrument, but generally D above the bass clef is normally a little flat and would be a good candidate to bring in tune with the closed slide -- all other 1st position notes would go out from there. This is not recommended for rank beginners, however, since their playing generally would not benefit from this adjustment.

[BaritoneJack]

There are trombones with springs instead of hard bumpers that allow some adjustment of 1st position notes in the sharp end.

I didn't know that - so I just checked mine, and it doesn't have springs.

I think ideally you would want the sharpest 1st position note in tune at the bumper. That note varies from instrument to instrument, but generally D above the bass clef is normally a little flat and would be a good candidate to bring in tune with the closed slide -- all other 1st position notes would go out from there. This is not recommended for rank beginners, however, since their playing generally would not benefit from this adjustment.

Um; you've lost me, there - as I play with a British brass band, where the music for tenor trombones is written in treble clef, and I'm not familiar with bass clef at all. In fact, even our music for Eb and Bb tubas is written in treble clef - with the only exception being bass trombone. Don't ask me why; as far as I know music for our brass bands has been written like that for a good 150 years or more.

With best regards,
Jack

[BGuttman]

No problem, Jack. The note I read as D above the bass staff you would read as E in the treble staff (4th space from the bottom). That note tends to be a little flat relative to other 1st position notes so tuning the trombone so it's in tune at the bumper would mean the slide has to be off the bumper for everything else.

Note that I don't recommend putting Ab (your Bb) above the staff as your sharp end -- it's WAY too flat and would make your 1st position so far out you may lose 7th.

[BaritoneJack]

Coo - it's all go with my new 'bone!

I tried playing it with the mouthpiece supplied - much bigger than any I've used before. It's got quite a thin rim, but nicely rounded and it's very comfortable. It was only when I put it down next to my baritone mouthpiece that I realised - it's a large shank! And there was me thinking that all tenor 'bones were small shank . . .

I did wonder for a moment; have I actually bought a bass? Went and checked the invoice - nope; it's described as a tenor, in B flat, but large bore (0.547"). Hmmm. Then I looked up the mouthpiece suppled (a John Packer 610), and in the extra info it's described as a euph mouthpiece, 4AL. Well, this should be interesting!

Moving right along . . . I was born left-handed, and forced to use my right hand before I was old enough to sit up in my cot, so didn't know anything about it until after my dad died (when I was 14) and my mum told me. And he wondered why I was so clumsy at things like throwing a ball, or kicking a ball . . . what the hell did you expect, dad?

Around the age of 20, I tried learning guitar - fought the damn thing for two years, and got nowhere. Last year, after 6 months of no band, no riding, and living in virtual solitary confinement, I was climbing the walls - and playing a baritone by myself just didn't cut it - so I looked around for something else to play which would sound complete in itself, and decided on banjo. Did some research, and an argument emerged; if you're left-handed, should you go for a left-hand banjo, or just learn on a right hand? People argued both ways, with some lefties saying they'd learnt to play right handed with no problems, and others saying they'd tried it and found it near impossible. One point caught my attention, where a bloke suggested that handedness was not a simple black and white situation - but that there was a spectrum of handedness, so you could be anywhere from extremely one-sided (left or right) to ambidextrous. That matched what I'd seen as an RAF radio mechanic; some right-handed blokes could - with difficulty - use a soldering iron left-handed in a tight spot; other right-handed blokes couldn't do it to save their lives.

So, just before I bought my banjo, I was doodling round on a bass guitar one day, and tried swapping it over to the left-hand position. It felt like taking my shoes off the wrong feet, and putting them on the right way round! That convinced me; I bought a left-hand banjo from a small English company (which builds pretty much whatever you want), and took to it like a duck to water. I'd say I made more progress in the first couple of weeks than I had with my RH guitar in two years. (it was only my banjo teacher who found it a bit confusing - she says watching what I'm doing is like looking in a mirror, rather than watching another player!)

You can see where this is going, can't you? Yep; I'd read up on that thread talking about setting up trombones to play left-handed. So when I got out my new trombone this evening, I put it together left-handed - and it was the same 'that's it!' feeling as my left-hand banjo. I always felt awkward playing my old Selmer trombone, even after playing it for months, but supporting the new 'bone with my right hand and working the slide with my left - all I can say is that it works for me, and feels perfectly natural.

I did note what was said in the other thread, that most (but not all) trigger trombones can't be swapped like that, as you can't reach the triggers - but I'll burn that bridge if and when I get to it. At my age (74), I doubt I've got enough years left to reach the dizzy heights of trombone playing, so I don't see it's worth the hassle of struggling to learn something the hard way, and having that constant feeling of awkwardness, just for the sake of having that future option available, if and when - if ever - I get far enough to need it.

With best regards,
Jack

[timothy42b]

I have always believed most left handers should play, or at least start on, trombone left handed.

It's frustrating enough without doing it wrong handed.

Of the 9,000 or so people on this forum I may be the only one who thinks that.

[muschem]

Interesting. I'm left-handed, and was fortunate enough not to be forced to do most things with the wrong hand. I write left-handed, played 1st base as a kid left-handed, and so on. But, when I started trombone in middle school, my band director was adamant that it had to be done right-handed. It is somewhat odd to me now, as my inclination in most things is to tinker, experiment, and go against the grain (professionally, I'm in cyber security... the "offensive" side of things, what in less professional terms might be known as a "hacker"), but in this, I just went along with it. I played for long enough that switching to left-handed feels wrong. Different strokes, I suppose... or just deeply ingrained habits becoming natural over time.

[harrisonreed]

I just want to qualify that my statement "Bb should be off the bumpers about the amount your tuning slide is pulled" meant, it should be off the bumpers about 1-1.5". That was how much the person I was talking about had his tuning slide pulled out. I didn't mean that they should be equal at the same time, which is how it reads out of context.

For me, the tuning slide is not pulled, or if it's hot, it's maybe 1cm. 1st is always about 3cm off the bumpers.

[BaritoneJack]

No problem, Jack. The note I read as D above the bass staff you would read as E in the treble staff (4th space from the bottom). That note tends to be a little flat relative to other 1st position notes so tuning the trombone so it's in tune at the bumper would mean the slide has to be off the bumper for everything else.

Note that I don't recommend putting Ab (your Bb) above the staff as your sharp end -- it's WAY too flat and would make your 1st position so far out you may lose 7th.

Thank you for making that clear to me It's much appreciated, and I'll follow your advice.

With best regards,
Jack

[BaritoneJack]

I have always believed most left handers should play, or at least start on, trombone left handed.

It's frustrating enough without doing it wrong handed.

Of the 9,000 or so people on this forum I may be the only one who thinks that.

You are not alone, Timothy!

With best regards,
Jack

[Posaunus]

There are trombones with springs instead of hard bumpers that allow some adjustment of 1st position notes in the sharp end.

I think ideally you would want the sharpest 1st position note in tune at the bumper. That note varies from instrument to instrument, but generally D above the bass clef is normally a little flat and would be a good candidate to bring in tune with the closed slide -- all other 1st position notes would go out from there. This is not recommended for rank beginners, however, since their playing generally would not benefit from this adjustment.

I love bumper springs. These came with my Conn 88H that I've had since 1972. Unlike Harrison, I typically tune to Bb just at the point where the slide is close to touching the springs but not compressing them. It's then easy to sharpen the slide by compressing the springs to get that pesky first position D back into tune. And most of my other first position notes are then in tune. My Conn 71H bass trombone also has these marvelous springs.

If I tune like Harrison (with the tuning slide essentially all the way in and Bb 1½" out) I'd never be able to hit an F-attachment low C - the outer slide would fall off the inner slide. The way I tune, I can just stretch to an in-tune low C.

But for Baritone Jack, he should know that there are many notes on a trombone that require slide adjustment upward or downward from the "standard" 7 positions. Play with a tuner to find these and remember the amount of adjustment - then fine tune with your ears to get your notes precisely in tune with others - and with the chords your notes are part of.

[BaritoneJack]

Interesting. I'm left-handed, and was fortunate enough not to be forced to do most things with the wrong hand. I write left-handed, played 1st base as a kid left-handed, and so on. But, when I started trombone in middle school, my band director was adamant that it had to be done right-handed.

I don't know why people like your middle school band director are so hide-bound in their thinking - in my opinion, that view of left-handedness is based on nothing but bigotry and ignorance. Even worse, when it's inflicted on children, it can and does cause enormous stress.

When I was about 20, my sister met a woman who did counselling with children and teenagers who had severe emotional problems. She told Moira that a constant source of work for her were those who had been born left-handed and forced to do everything right-handed. When Moira told her that that happened to me, the woman asked:
"So - did he stammer, or did he bite his nails?"

Moira said that I'd bitten my nails compulsively, despite all my parents attempts to stop me, and the counsellor said: "In my experience, they always do one or the other - and, sometimes, both. That gives you an idea of just how much emotional and mental harm those children are hit with - and for what reason? These days, you can buy left-handed scissors, left-handed fountain pens, banks will even provide you with left-handed cheque books on request!"

In my case, I know what the reason was, though my dad would never have admitted it; he was Irish, incredibly old-fashioned in his views, and brought up to believe that left-handedness was linked to Devil worship. Yet he thought he was modern in his outlook! Unbelievable . . .

With best regards,
Jack

[BaritoneJack]

@Posaunus - thank you for the reminder that all positions can need slight in-performance adjustment to get the pitch right. The curious thing was that, though my previous instructor mentioned it for one position (I think it was 5th), she never mentioned that other positions need it, too - let alone the point made by @SwissTbone, that it's vital to leave yourself sufficient wiggle-room to be able to do it on 1st.
With best regards,
Jack

[timothy42b]

I have always believed most left handers should play, or at least start on, trombone left handed.

It's frustrating enough without doing it wrong handed.

Of the 9,000 or so people on this forum I may be the only one who thinks that.

You are not alone, Timothy!

With best regards,
Jack

Many years ago, perhaps decades, before trombone chat and OTJ, let's not mention Facebook- please! There was an active trombone community on list serv. This topic was discussed at length, and as I had a left handed child I tried to make the case for reduced frustration, thinking not every beginner becomes a pro but can still enjoy rewards from making music.

Alas, the great Doug Yeo spoke and the argument was over. Trombone is, has been, and ever shall be right handed, no other opinions will be tolerated, and everyone fell in line.

I still don't agree. People who are not strongly lefty don't always appreciate the level of frustration coping with a right handed world.

I will add one less emotional observation. Part of the problem is assuming the trombone world requires a trigger.

[timothy42b]

let alone the point made by @SwissTbone, that it's vital to leave yourself sufficient wiggle-room to be able to do it on 1st.
With best regards,
Jack

Well, technically, almost all of that can be solved by using other positions for notes on first.

[BaritoneJack]

@timothy42b - " . . . as I had a left handed child I tried to make the case for reduced frustration, thinking not every beginner becomes a pro but can still enjoy rewards from making music. Alas, the great Doug Yeo spoke and the argument was over. Trombone is, has been, and ever shall be right handed, no other opinions will be tolerated, and everyone fell in line. I still don't agree."

And nor do I - nor do I fall in line . . . unless I choose to do so. If somebody offers me a rational or logical argument, I do my best to give it fair consideration - but when somebody tries the old "because I say so" stuff on me, I see that as a tacit admission that they don't have an argument based on facts or logic. When I was 13, I horrified the rest of my class by having a stand-up argument with the (Jesuit) school's (Jesuit) headmaster on a point of religious doctrine; I thought he was wrong, refused to accept his assumption that he had the right to tell me how to think, and saw no reason why I shouldn't say so. That, mark you, was at the time when Catholics commonly referred to Jesuits as "the Pope's Commandos"!

If somebody says "I tried this, and it worked for me" - great; I'll think about it, see if I can learn from it, and may well give it a try to see if it works for me as well. But, if somebody says "I did this, it worked for me, therefore don't tell me it won't work for you, too" - oh, no. One size does not fit all.

With best regards,
Jack

[BaritoneJack]

let alone the point made by @SwissTbone, that it's vital to leave yourself sufficient wiggle-room to be able to do it on 1st.
With best regards,
Jack

Well, technically, almost all of that can be solved by using other positions for notes on first.

Yes . . . but at my stage of playing trombone, I have enough on my plate learning the standard positions, let alone memorising alternative positions at the same time! I think I'd better learn to metaphorically fly a Piper Cub before moving onto an F-111

With best regards,
Jack

[Matt K]

As an extremely left handed person, I have a hard disagree on that. I have several learning disabilities as well which caused me to be unable to tie my shoe laces until I was in my teens, I have extremely poor fine motor control etc. having a right handed task that I could practice in isolation is probably one of the reasons I can even use my right hand for anything. Unlike penmanship or cutting things with scissors, which are fairly useless skills I’m 2020 anyway, you can only perform a single cognitive task on trombone. You know the note name and position and you move your arm. There are coordination issues that need to be addressed but it’s much more simple than cursive writing.

Writing cursive or cutting things takes more cognitive load than people think because it’s so “simple”. I’m reality, when you write, your brain is needing to remember each stroke of the symbols (letters) while also holding in short term memory both the sentence and word that is being written. Forcing this to be done in a non dominant hand is a lot more to ask of than what can easily be accommodated for on trombone. Similarly, right handed people play the French horn left handed all the time. Likewise, string instruments use both hands, with their left hand typically actuating the mechanism that changes the notes. It’s a very different skill set and is the focus of the study rather than incidental (you write to explore other subjects whereas music is studied as an end itself).

[harrisonreed]

let alone the point made by @SwissTbone, that it's vital to leave yourself sufficient wiggle-room to be able to do it on 1st.
With best regards,
Jack

Well, technically, almost all of that can be solved by using other positions for notes on first.

Yes and no. A D in 4th and a D in 1st are not really the same sound, even though they are the same note. The tuner might register the same pitch, but they have different percentages of the pieces that make up a D. Also how you get into and out of those alternate notes is different from how you get into and out of the standard positions, which also changes the sound. Options are good!

[timothy42b]

As an extremely left handed person, I have a hard disagree on that.

We're all different and there's a huge range of how handed we are, and what other difficulties are associated with it. I would not disagree that some people can switch easily, and that some people who will struggle may benefit from it.

Where I disagree fairly strongly is that all must be forced to play right handed, on an instrument that is just as easy to assemble left or right.

Similarly, right handed people play the French horn left handed all the time.

I submit that is selection bias. We see the ones who succeeded, not the ones who struggled and failed.

In addition, and there is some disagreement here, so I hope I'm not offending the left handers. But. There is some evidence that left handed people have more of the learning difficulty type frustrations that you mentioned, and it may be harder for some segment of the left handed population to use their right hand than for right handers to do the opposite. If you saw my brother pitching a ball against a wall, overhand and underhand, you would not be able to tell which hand he is naturally. Partly that is natural coordination and partly hours of practice, of course.

[Matt K]

I don’t think it’s selection bias at all to suggest that people who use their non dominant hand to play a string instrument increase their ability to use that hand. Being able to use both of your hands is a good thing independent of whether or not people later go on to play violin or French horn professionally.

[BaritoneJack]

" . . . you can only perform a single cognitive task on trombone. You know the note name and position and you move your arm. There are coordination issues that need to be addressed but it’s much more simple than cursive writing."

Have to disagree on that first point; there are a bunch of cognitive issues to be performed on trombone (as there are on other brass and wind instruments). Breath control, embouchure, internal shape of the mouth cavity, position of the tongue - fine control of all of those are essential.

Forcing (writing) to be done in a non dominant hand is a lot more to ask of than what can easily be accommodated for on trombone.

You may find using the trombone slide with your non-dominant hand "easily accommodated" - some people, including me, do not find it easy at all. Furthermore, I can't see a single reason why I should make learning trombone even a tad harder than it needs to be, just because somebody else thinks I should.

As far as I'm concerned, the moment I played my trombone left-handed, the debate was over.

With best regards,
Jack

[BaritoneJack]

@harrisonreed -

A D in 4th and a D in 1st are not really the same sound, even though they are the same note. The tuner might register the same pitch, but they have different percentages of the pieces that make up a D. Also how you get into and out of those alternate notes is different from how you get into and out of the standard positions, which also changes the sound. Options are good!

Re. the same note played in different positions sounding different; I hadn't thought of that, but it does make sense. The tuner will show the same note being played, because it responds to the fundamental frequency - but it will ignore the mass of harmonics and sub-harmonics which are also present, which are affected by the different tubing length being used for each position. Those harmonics and sub-harmonics, at different frequencies and strengths, is why even a non-musician can hear the difference between Bb being played in the same octave on a trombone, a euph, and a flugel horn - and even more, between any instrument playing an A as compared to a tuning fork playing A! The fundamental frequency is the same, but the tuning fork doesn't have the mass of harmonics and sub-harmonics that the instrument produces.

I've only used alternate positions a few times on my baritone, when a certain phrase called for some very awkward fingering - but, yes, having those options can be very useful, indeed! Now you've got me intrigued, and I'll have a play around later with different positions, just to hear how that changes the sound - thank you for bringing that point to my attention

And best regards,
Jack

[BGuttman]

Left-handed trombonists: Slide Hampton, Murray MacEachern. Both played jazz from the opposite side. Neither played an F-attachment (nor did they need to).

If you want to play the trombone flipped around and using your left hand for the slide, go ahead. It works better than restringing guitars or violins to play left-handed.

[timothy42b]

even a non-musician can hear the difference between Bb being played in the same octave on a trombone, a euph, and a flugel horn -
Jack

There is a difference, but it is less than we think. There are some studies that say if you remove the articulation at the start and stop of a note, it becomes very hard to tell.

On trombone a D in 1st and a D in 4th can sound dramatically different - if the positions aren't equally well dialed in, as you often hear. With both notes in tune, playing in the center of the slot, they are pretty close. The harmonics will be identical in frequency, theoretically different in relative strength, but as the upper ones don't reinforce strongly anyway, this difference can be more theoretical than real. (No two of my Ds in any position sound the same!)

[ithinknot]

... Slide Hampton, Murray MacEachern. Both played jazz from the opposite side.

You mean... From Beyond The Grave?

elvira.gif

Anyway, if anyone needs a LH instrument with F-attachment there's no problem. Even reversing a 90/90 port rotor wouldn't be that bad, but on a Hagmann you would only need a new lever, with the linkage re-attached on the opposite half of the spindle cap... very easy.

[harrisonreed]

Jeez, the last time I think I was reminded that Elvira existed was probably in 1995.

[BaritoneJack]

Left-handed trombonists: Slide Hampton, Murray MacEachern. Both played jazz from the opposite side. Neither played an F-attachment (nor did they need to).

That's interesting, Bruce - as I'd always had the impression that having an F attachment was pretty much essential if you wanted to play more advanced stuff. I'll have a look on Youtube and see if I can find anything played by Hampton or MacEachern.

If you want to play the trombone flipped around and using your left hand for the slide, go ahead. It works better than restringing guitars or violins to play left-handed.

I only found out why very recently, when watching a video of a luthier repairing a guitar, and he pointed out the fact that the bracing under the top was asymmetrical, so that each side of the top was - in effect - tuned to resonate most effectively with the higher and lower tuned strings. I was really surprised by how complex - and how important - the internal bracing is to the sound of those stringed instruments.
With best regards,
Jack

[BaritoneJack]

... Slide Hampton, Murray MacEachern. Both played jazz from the opposite side.

You mean... From Beyond The Grave?
elvira.gif

Not being familiar with her (I don't think that series was shown over here?), I looked up Elvira on the net, and came across a picture taken of Cassandra Peterson in 2011, when she was 60 years old - and dammit, she was still smoking!!

Anyway, if anyone needs a LH instrument with F-attachment there's no problem. Even reversing a 90/90 port rotor wouldn't be that bad, but on a Hagmann you would only need a new lever, with the linkage re-attached on the opposite half of the spindle cap... very easy.

Many thanks for that tip, Ithinknot - I'll file it away for future reference.

With best regards - and thanks for the .gif ,
Jack

[timothy42b]

Left-handed trombonists: Slide Hampton, Murray MacEachern. Both played jazz from the opposite side. Neither played an F-attachment (nor did they need to).

That's interesting, Bruce - as I'd always had the impression that having an F attachment was pretty much essential if you wanted to play more advanced stuff. I'll have a look on Youtube and see if I can find anything played by Hampton or MacEachern.

Until COVID I did the group warmups at ETW/ATW every year.

The room would be full of trombonists of all ages. But quite often I'd have the only straight tenor. If I brought the alto I was always the only alto (and those warmups focus on exercises in one position using the partial series - always a mental challenge for me.)

[BaritoneJack]

@BGuttman, @timothy42b - re. F attachments; I turned up a video on Youtube of Slide Hampton playing with his jazz combo, and playing some very complex stuff, with very fast changes. Four trombones including Hampton, all of them playing straight trombones.



Now there's food for thought.
With best regards,
Jack

[BGuttman]

A typical Jazz Band of the 1940s had 4 trombones, all playing straight horns. Bass trombones didn't really take over the 4th part until the 1950s and Bart Varsalona.

Another leftie trombonis: J.C. Higginbotham:

[BaritoneJack]

A typical Jazz Band of the 1940s had 4 trombones, all playing straight horns. Bass trombones didn't really take over the 4th part until the 1950s and Bart Varsalona.

Considering the complexity of the jazz being played in that era, that really surprises me, Bruce - it just shows what can be achieved with a straight trombone (if you have the required talent! )

With best regards,
Jack

[ithinknot]

Another leftie trombonis: J.C. Higginbotham:

Not sure where you're getting that - from that photo, or anywhere else...

[BGuttman]

If you look at parts for Jazz Bands of the 1930s and 1940s, you will see that none of the trombones go below E below the bass staff (your F#, 3 lines down). The exception to this was pedal Bb and A (your C and B natural, 5 lines below).

Paul Tanner (of the Glenn Miller Band) talked about using falset tones, and I'd bet a lot of the players of the era could put forth a solid falset below the bass staff to fill out a chord.

[BGuttman]

Another leftie trombonis: J.C. Higginbotham:

Not sure where you're getting that - from that photo, or anywhere else...

Whoops, I guess you are right. Sorry.

[GabrielRice]

Left-handed trombonists: Slide Hampton,

Fun fact: Slide Hampton is not actually left-handed. The first time a trombone was handed to him it was put together that way and he just ran with it.

Another fun fact: He was a guest artist with the New England Conservatory Big Band when I was in school there. A "very smart person" in the NEC publications office saw the press photo his manager supplied, assumed it was a negative developed backwards, and reversed it for publication in the promotional materials for the concert.

[BaritoneJack]

Left-handed trombonists: Slide Hampton,

: Slide Hampton was a guest artist with the New England Conservatory Big Band when I was in school there. A "very smart person" in the NEC publications office saw the press photo his manager supplied, assumed it was a negative developed backwards, and reversed it for publication in the promotional materials for the concert.

Another victim of this picture reversal was Billy the Kid; contrary to many photos published at the time, he was not a southpaw - as you can see by looking at the buttons on his coat and vest.
https://www.americancowboy.com/.image/c ... e-kid.webp

With best regards,
Jack

[Basbasun]

even a non-musician can hear the difference between Bb being played in the same octave on a trombone, a euph, and a flugel horn -
Jack

There is a difference, but it is less than we think. There are some studies that say if you remove the articulation at the start and stop of a note, it becomes very hard to tell.

On trombone a D in 1st and a D in 4th can sound dramatically different - if the positions aren't equally well dialed in, as you often hear. With both notes in tune, playing in the center of the slot, they are pretty close. The harmonics will be identical in frequency, theoretically different in relative strength, but as the upper ones don't reinforce strongly anyway, this difference can be more theoretical than real. (No two of my Ds in any position sound the same!)

If a pro play a lets say Bb major scale covering the said D played on forth possition, you would not hear the difference in sound from the other tones in the scale.
The overtones from both D:s are the same as Tim says. But a less experienced player may not put the slide exactly right on the 4th position D.

[lupusargentus]

Shouldn't "alternate" positions sound exactly the same as the "standard" ones? F above the staff can be played in 1st, long third/short 4th, and 6th. Very useful for playing a C minor scale and only move between 3rd and 4th.
Obviously, you have to tune to correct for the partial.
I play first all the way in and pull the tuning. I don't have any problems lipping the D up 4 cents.
Partial tuning is dependent on the horn. The Bach 16 I had in college did not have a usable 1st position D unless I tuned Bb about halfway between 1st and 2nd.

[harrisonreed]

If a pro play a lets say Bb major scale covering the said D played on forth possition, you would not hear the difference in sound from the other tones in the scale.
The overtones from both D:s are the same as Tim says. But a less experienced player may not put the slide exactly right on the 4th position D.

The strength of the overtones and all of the components of a D in 4th are not the same. One is a D played in the
Bb harmonic series on a shorter tube, and the other is a D played in the G harmonic series on a longer tube. The bigger difference is getting into and out of D in 4th -- unless the pro is playing staccato it will be different.

They don't sound the same, and that's a good thing.

[BGuttman]

Here's a left-handed bass trombone (and player)

[timothy42b]

The strength of the overtones and all of the components of a D in 4th are not the same. One is a D played in the
Bb harmonic series on a shorter tube, and the other is a D played in the G harmonic series on a longer tube.

Just for clarity, because that could be understood two ways.

The D is played in two different harmonic series, which means different frequencies above it may get different levels of reinforcement.

But the upper harmonics of that D are exactly the same frequency.

The partial series is not the same as the harmonic series. The partial series reflects a real trombone, with a leadpipe, crooks, spit valve, sharp bends, and all the other real world stuff that makes a partial series have sharp and flat notes. The harmonic series follows a mathematical sequence instead.

[GabrielRice]

Here's a left-handed bass trombone (and player)

Umm...I can do that with the reverse camera function on my phone. And the singer behind him is turning pages backwards.

[ithinknot]

Here's a left-handed bass trombone (and player)

Umm...I can do that with the reverse camera function on my phone. And the singer behind him is turning pages backwards.

So cynical; it's a Hebrew score

[Basbasun]

The strength of the overtones and all of the components of a D in 4th are not the same. One is a D played in the
Bb harmonic series on a shorter tube, and the other is a D played in the G harmonic series on a longer tube.

Just for clarity, because that could be understood two ways.

The D is played in two different harmonic series, which means different frequencies above it may get different levels of reinforcement.

But the upper harmonics of that D are exactly the same frequency.

The partial series is not the same as the harmonic series. The partial series reflects a real trombone, with a leadpipe, crooks, spit valve, sharp bends, and all the other real world stuff that makes a partial series have sharp and flat notes. The harmonic series follows a mathematical sequence instead.

Very good explaned Tim!

Actually all tones on the trombone (and other horns) have the same type of overtoneseries, from the played ton 2,3,4,5,6 osv times the frequency of the played tone.
But there is much more to that what colors the sound how, fast or slow the expansion of the tube is, if the horn is badly built, dirty inside or bass or small tenor. Still, every tone has the same kind of ovetonseris. Mark the that the trombone is much longer than the lenght needed for the "pedal tone". The contra Bb need about as long tune length as the lenght of the slide it self plus maybe an inch.