A great video

[slideman]

The sound is generated from the corners buzzing. The center where air passes does not close.

^
From here. I think this is a novel concept born at this very instant.

Completely contrary to physics.

Again, I doubt any laws of physics are being broken. I've been playing this way for 30 years.

[Burgerbob]

Again, I doubt any laws of physics are being broken. I've been playing this way for 30 years.

I have no doubt you think you play like that, but...

[slideman]

I have no doubt you think you play like that, but...

Ha! It's not as complicated as everyone is making it. I'm not going to continue on this subject. It just struck me earlier in the thread that someone would think that the center of the lips needed to touch in order to play. It's contrary to how I've been playing for years.

[Doug Elliott]

But ... we don't know what you sound like.

[Basbasun]

We can take pictures on how the embouchure look before the blow. Before the actually playing start the lips can be open or closed. During the playing the lips are both closed and open depending on what part of the cycle we are looking at.
It is of course possible to start with closed lips or open lips, that should not be a problem for anybody to figure out.

Without kowing for sure, I think it is possible to play without the lips not closing completely. It is somtimes done in singing with a kind of whispering voice.
I think that playing like slideman say he is doing is quite possible. I am not sure that is what he is doing, I would like to listen to his playing though. Also a mrs video would be nice.

Years ago I was asked to play with a whispering sound on a recording for just a few bars. I think that I was doing just that, I think that the lips did not close in the middle of my chops.

Dave and I had a discoussion on this subject years ago on the old trombone forum. I did send him a copy of paper done at the Institute of Technology by profoessor Sundberg about singing. Sing can done without complitely closing the vocalfolds.

[Wilktone]

None of that is what is making the sound you hear from the trombone. Not the buzzing, not the aperture, and not the corners.

Strictly speaking, the sound we hear is the vibrating column of air inside the instrument. But I do believe that it is the lips buzzing that excites the column of air. When the lips buzzing matches the resonance of the vibrating column of air we get the pitch we want to play in its most focused tone. So while it's true that the buzzing isn't the sound (the horn really isn't a megaphone), it's necessary. The aperture (meaning the opening AND closing hole in the lips) is necessary. The corners, at least among most professional players, appears to bear much of the brunt of the work at keeping the lips held into their proper position to play.

Nor is the OP video claiming that the aperture stays open the entire time he's playing.

I suspect that you are right, but Tucker doesn't explicitly state that in the video in question. It's very easy to interpret what he's advising as "try to keep your aperture open while playing." While some players might find success making it "feel" like that's what they're doing, analogies and playing sensations are unreliable ways to teach unless you are there in person to fix a problem if they don't have the desired effect. I'm not opposed to instructing this way, per se. I'm personally much more likely to use analogies and describing playing sensations while teaching in person than I do online.

He was just trying to get people to visualize that the embouchure needs to be less spread horizontally, and more open vertically.

In this case, I'm not as sure about your conclusion. Giving Tucker the most charitable interpretation in this instance, I would say that in one sentence you've done a better job of Tucker in his entire video describing his advice. That said. . .

Common sense idea? If you form your chops (lips together) and there is no blow, there’s consequently no aperture. There’s only a potential aperture at that point. Once the blow starts, the shape of aperture will be determined by the supporting muscles.

Yes, and also determined by the inherent texture and shape of your particular lips - everybody's lips are different.

. . . some folks want more of a horizontal spread and some want more of a vertical spread. And it will change according to range and volume and probably according to the individual player's point of development. And how it *feels* to be spread is going to be different from person to person. How a student reacts to being told to spread their embouchure more vertically is also going to depend on what they're already doing and where they need to be going.

ChopShop isn't advocating that you actually play with your aperture spaced the size of your pinky.

But again, that isn't explicitly stated in his video. Even giving Tucker the most charitable interpretation of what that demonstration/exercise is supposed to be doing, I don't consider it to be a useful method of going about helping people in an instructional video without knowing in the first place that moving into the direction of a more open aperture while playing is what is really needed.

So to summarize my gripe on the above, it's not that I find this advice bad, I just don't feel that it's going to be helpful for most players. I think that there are better ways to go after this that require getting to see and hear what the student is doing first.

Ha! It's not as complicated as everyone is making it. I'm not going to continue on this subject. It just struck me earlier in the thread that someone would think that the center of the lips needed to touch in order to play. It's contrary to how I've been playing for years.

In light of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I doubt that what you are describing is what you're actually doing. Again, it may *feel* to you like the center of your lips never touch when you play, but if you want to believably claim that it is the burden of proof is on you to either demonstrate it conclusively or otherwise show evidence of this happening on another player.

ave and I had a discoussion on this subject years ago on the old trombone forum. I did send him a copy of paper done at the Institute of Technology by profoessor Sundberg about singing. Sing can done without complitely closing the vocalfolds.

Was it "Vocal tract and register changes analysed by real-time MRI in male professional singers — a pilot study?" I can't find the full paper on my hard drive, just other papers with reference to it. The abstract doesn't state anything about singing without the vocal folds closing.

Here's a video using strobe lighting to "slow down" the vocal folds while singing.



When he switches to falsetto the very top aperture of the vocal folds appears to stay open, but I'm not sure that that isn't just an artifact of the strobe light not catching the folds at their completely closed position.

My wife is a speech therapist. She confirms that it is possible to vocalize in a manner where the vocal folds don't actually fully come together like the above video, but it's an abnormal sound. She says it's common with stroke or Parkinson's patients.

So while it's possible that one could play trombone without the lips closing completely, I doubt that it's going to sound good or that it would be a good long term way to play.

Dave

[Kbiggs]

Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/

[Bach5G]

Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/

No buzz but, rather, smooth air, says Vizzutti. I don’t know what to make of that.

[Wilktone]

Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/

Thanks for posting that link.

Tthe author, Steve Oare (correction, the original author is Shannon Roberts), states, "As air is forced through the lips, the lips never touch each other. Instead, they oscillate because of the shifts in air pressure, turbulent eddies in the mouthpiece and elasticity of the skin." The bold emphasis is mine.











Other than that, most of what I read in there seems accurate, although I didn't try to fact check all the discussion on physics.

[harrisonreed]

It sure looks like those lips are touching every oscillation

[Doug Elliott]

Exactly.
Video proof, not somebody's opinion of what they think they do.

[Posaunus]

Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/

The author, Steve Oare, states, "As air is forced through the lips, the lips never touch each other. Instead, they oscillate because of the shifts in air pressure, turbulent eddies in the mouthpiece and elasticity of the skin."

The original author of this paper was apparently Dr. Shannon Roberts, director of a high school band in Ogden, Utah.

Sorry, Dr. Roberts, but it's pretty clear from all the videos (and personal experience) that the lips DO touch each other when producing a note on a brass instrument.

[Basbasun]

Well, most of us know very well that in most pro trombone playing the lips close fully. The Paper from Johan Sundberg is about male singers singin in falsetto, you can hear in Daves video clip that there is pretty much air in the sound when the singer goes into the falsetto. This has been known for at least 20 years now. I don´t know where my papers are, I could probably find them if I did have the time. I don´t. There is not much use to publishing more videos with classical profesional trombonists, it would be more intresting to se video with modern avantgarde players who play with other sounds. If we can find videos with trombonists with airy sound it would probably be videos with lips touching, but not fully. Like touching in the corneres bu not in middle maybe. Those of you who teach, did you ever have a student with airy sound sound? Did you wonder what reason for that could be? My wife do also sing (she is a saxophone player) she can sing whit a kind of whispering sound, not the way she usually sing. There are many singers who do that sometimes.

[Basbasun]

Here is a slightly different approach to the topic. I am still thinking about and digesting this information, and I have yet to try anything suggested. More food for thought.

https://kansasmusicreview.com/2018/06/2 ... d-playing/

Thanks for posting that link.

Tthe author, Steve Oare, states, "As air is forced through the lips, the lips never touch each other. Instead, they oscillate because of the shifts in air pressure, turbulent eddies in the mouthpiece and elasticity of the skin." The bold emphasis is mine.











Other than that, most of what I read in there seems accurate, although I didn't try to fact check all the discussion on physics.

Well thankyou for those nicce videos, I have seen them a couple times before. They all show how the lips move when pro trombonist play in most cases. I am sure that mosts of them could play with an airy sound if getting payed for it. It is not that hard, I have done it. If we shall have more videos it would be fun to look at the lips when a husky whispering sound is produced. I am not saying that it is not possible to play with a useful sound with the lips only partial closed, like closing in the corners but not in the middle, but I say that all those videos showing fully closed lips does not prove that playing another way is not possible. Remeber tha most of those trombone players on the videos is shosen for a "good trombone sound".

[Wilktone]

The original author of this paper was apparently Dr. Shannon Roberts, director of a high school band in Ogden, Utah.

Whoops, thanks for catching that. I've corrected my original post.

As an aside, there's an image in the article that I created in Photoshop about 10 years ago for a blog post. I had scanned a drawing from Reinhardt's Encyclopedia, colorized it and added the tongue touching the lower lip for a post where I was talking about avoiding keeping the tongue on the lower lip to play. I'm not sure why that image was pulled and what they hoped to demonstrate with it, since it just sits there without explanation. Frankly, it's a pretty crappy job with Photoshop, so I'm surprised they couldn't find a better image.

The Paper from Johan Sundberg is about male singers singin in falsetto, you can hear in Daves video clip that there is pretty much air in the sound when the singer goes into the falsetto

I poked around and you're right, when singing in falsetto the vocal folds do not completely close, so that portion of the vocalist video I posted isn't an artifact of the strobe light not quite flashing at the same frequency. I don't really think there is an analogue to trombone embouchure, however.

I am not saying that it is not possible to play with a useful sound with the lips only partial closed, like closing in the corners but not in the middle, but I say that all those videos showing fully closed lips does not prove that playing another way is not possible.

Possible? Sure, I'll grant you that. Advisable? Probably not. Maybe as a special effect, but it's not a very useful one.

There is not much use to publishing more videos with classical profesional trombonists, it would be more intresting to se video with modern avantgarde players who play with other sounds.

If you go to about 17:00 minutes into the Lloyd Leno film above (the first video in the string of brass videos I posted yesterday) you'll see some video footage of Stewart Dempster demonstrating two different kinds of multiphonics, including playing with two apertures.

[Basbasun]

Yes I know about Stuart Dempster, I meet him in the 60th and 80th in Stockholm, well he is not what you call a "classically" trombone player even though he was at one time. He was showing lots of "sounds" I am sure he could do a whisper sound.
"Possible? Sure, I'll grant you that. Advisable? Probably not. Maybe as a special effect, but it's not a very useful one."
Well if you want a whisper sound may be adviseble, that could probably be a useful one in that case.
To be honest I can´t prove anything about that, I have heard many trombone and trumpet players player (on purpose) playing with an airy sound, and doing it good making an intersting sound. We can not so far know for sure how the embouchure works for them, I don´t and you don´t. We can guess no more.

[afugate]

About 25 seconds into this clip, the player starts ascending into the upper register. It seems they have trouble playing up there. To my untrained eyes, it appears they are pulling the aperture sideways at that point. I wonder if that's an indication of a smile embouchure approach?

--Andy in OKC

[Doug Elliott]

I don't think so, but that shows the problem with trying to diagnose or explain what's happening while only looking at one thing.
There are undoubtedly several different reasons why the player is having trouble, including the tongue creating the low C (Bb) aperture to start.

[Kbiggs]

Thanks for posting that link.

he author, Steve Oare (correction, the original author is Shannon Roberts), states, "As air is forced through the lips, the lips never touch each other. Instead, they oscillate because of the shifts in air pressure, turbulent eddies in the mouthpiece and elasticity of the skin." The bold emphasis is mine.


Other than that, most of what I read in there seems accurate, although I didn't try to fact check all the discussion on physics.

Yes, I agree. The lips touch. I don’t know enough about the underlying physics to really understand what Dr. Roberts is referring to, and it’s possible he may not either. The useful concepts to me are a constant flow of air past the lips, the lips vibrating and exciting the closed resonating tube, and the instrument as a projecting resonator.

It is odd that Dr. Roberts used your photoshopped pic without attribution when there are many others available. [Anyone remember the Beatles tune Dr. Roberts???]

I think where the original video’s author Deion Tucker confuses the issue is when he talks about forming the embouchure vs. what actually happens. There are times when we use a thought or a figure of speech (like an analogy, a metaphor, a simile) to understand something, and it eventually “breaks down.” It doesn’t fit the situation exactly, or on further examination it’s not a good example. Enter critical thinking here (thanks Dave Wilken).

Example: some people, especially students, may find it useful to think of an open aperture with a pucker in order to de-emphasize or counter their tendency to stretch the lips too thin. Just a thought…

[Savio]

The video shows the fact but the approach or idea might work for some? Some pinch the lip together to much, some are very loose. I suggest to take a lesson with Doug Elliott or some other teacher who knows about mechanisms in brass playing if there is specific problems. If not, play, practice, performe and enjoy.

Leif

[Bach5G]

Interesting but not something that one would incorporate into one’s daily routine beyond what K Biggs said, ie:


“Example: some people, especially students, may find it useful to think of an open aperture with a pucker in order to de-emphasize or counter their tendency to stretch the lips too thin”

[afugate]

I don't think so, but that shows the problem with trying to diagnose or explain what's happening while only looking at one thing.
There are undoubtedly several different reasons why the player is having trouble, including the tongue creating the low C (Bb) aperture to start.

So much to learn... so little time!

--Andy in OKC

[Basbasun]

I did an experiment with a visulizer and a tothpick. I puched my corners forward much more than I usually do, the same way I did years ago when asked to make an "airy" trombone sound in a record with B-A Wallin in the 70th. Looking at my lips in the visulizer my apperture look really round whem I plowed a tone. I slowly put the tothpich in the the round opening still buzzing, took the tothpick out still buzzing. Yes the lips was closing. But only at the corners. I played some tones on one trombone, the sound was ok. Still with the corners puchued forward. The sound was not bad at all. All the videos only prove how those very few trombonists lips behave, the millions of other trombonists.

Yes the lips close and open, but there is a chans that they dont hav close completily, like vocal chords sometimes dont close completely. ( Yes the lips and vocal chords do behave very much alike). I can´t prove anything, It would be very nice to make a video about the issue. But some ynger person than me has to do it. I think it is possible that slideman is right.

[imsevimse]

I did an experiment with a visulizer and a tothpick. I puched my corners forward much more than I usually do, the same way I did years ago when asked to make an "airy" trombone sound in a record with B-A Wallin in the 70th. Looking at my lips in the visulizer my apperture look really round whem I plowed a tone. I slowly put the tothpich in the the round opening still buzzing, took the tothpick out still buzzing. Yes the lips was closing. But only at the corners. I played some tones on one trombone, the sound was ok. Still with the corners puchued forward. The sound was not bad at all. All the videos only prove how those very few trombonists lips behave, the millions of other trombonists.

Yes the lips close and open, but there is a chans that they dont hav close completily, like vocal chords sometimes dont close completely. ( Yes the lips and vocal chords do behave very much alike). I can´t prove anything, It would be very nice to make a video about the issue. But some ynger person than me has to do it. I think it is possible that slideman is right.

I'm not surprised YOU could do that experiment and manage to buzz with a toothpick in your mouth. I wonder how many at this forum can do that? I know I can't but I do suspect I would be a much better trombone player if I could. I admire your skills

/Tom

[Wilktone]

I wonder if anyone can "freebuzz" with an open aperture. That would show that the lips needn't close.

But it's probably impossible.

Turns out that it isn't impossible.



But I doubt that this is how he's playing, even if he thinks it.

Even though some folks can free buzz without the lips coming completely closed, I still doubt that this is what happens inside the mouthpiece while playing the horn. First, the vocal folds are not responding to a standing wave and vibrating in resonance the way our lips do. My rudimentary understanding of the physics involved leads me to believe that without the lips coming completely closed we're not going to get the little puffs of air that set the column of air inside the instrument to vibrating and we're not going to get the standing wave and lips vibrating in tandem. No standing wave is no sound.

Almost every credible discussion I've seen of the physics of brass instruments that discusses the embouchure aperture states that the lips open and close. Every actual video footage of the lips vibrating inside a transparent mouthpiece or with a camera inside the mouthpiece show the lips open and close. Is it possible that somewhere someone can make something resembling a sound on a brass instrument without that happening? Maybe, but I doubt it. If you can show it to me I'll change my thoughts, but until then I call shenanigans.

[BGuttman]

All sound requires a vibration somewhere in a compressible medium. That's why playing a trombone in a vacuum won't make a sound that can be heard (of course, that has to be a thought experiment -- no way you can test it).

Brass instruments are also called lip-reed for a reason. Instead of a vibrating string or reed you need a vibrating lip.

I feel that if you can do a razzberry you can do a free buzz.

[Basbasun]

I wonder if anyone can "freebuzz" with an open aperture. That would show that the lips needn't close.

But it's probably impossible.

Turns out that it isn't impossible.



But I doubt that this is how he's playing, even if he thinks it.

Even though some folks can free buzz without the lips coming completely closed, I still doubt that this is what happens inside the mouthpiece while playing the horn. First, the vocal folds are not responding to a standing wave and vibrating in resonance the way our lips do. My rudimentary understanding of the physics involved leads me to believe that without the lips coming completely closed we're not going to get the little puffs of air that set the column of air inside the instrument to vibrating and we're not going to get the standing wave and lips vibrating in tandem. No standing wave is no sound.

Almost every credible discussion I've seen of the physics of brass instruments that discusses the embouchure aperture states that the lips open and close. Every actual video footage of the lips vibrating inside a transparent mouthpiece or with a camera inside the mouthpiece show the lips open and close. Is it possible that somewhere someone can make something resembling a sound on a brass instrument without that happening? Maybe, but I doubt it. If you can show it to me I'll change my thoughts, but until then I call shenanigans.

I am sure that his lips are fully touching when he plays the horn. Because the sound is telling my that I think. Like all the videos in this thread are played with a sound that I think is the sound of fully closed/open, even though there might be short moments of lips not closing fully. I have heard live trombonists sound a bit leaky, I can do that my self on purpose. I don´t think you can get that sound with the lips fully closed. What we have seen in the videos is the result of standing waves and lips closing/opening, in that we all agree. We have not seen any videos showing how the lips looks when airy, husky leaky sonds is produced. So we are just guessing and believing. As I said above, I can not prove anything, I can just guess that it is possible to play an airy sound with the lips closed only partially. I know the Dave will not change his mind (he never does) so we just have to agree about not agree.Dave is sure, I am not.

[Basbasun]

All sound requires a vibration somewhere in a compressible medium. That's why playing a trombone in a vacuum won't make a sound that can be heard (of course, that has to be a thought experiment -- no way you can test it).

Brass instruments are also called lip-reed for a reason. Instead of a vibrating string or reed you need a vibrating lip.

I feel that if you can do a razzberry you can do a free buzz.

I guess you are right, if you can do a razzbery you can probably do a sort of freebuzzing.
I can free buzz. I can buzz in the mouthpiece. I can play some trombone.

But. I can not play the trombone exactly the same way I buzz the mpc, close, but there is an important difference.

There is also a difference in my mpc buzzing and feebuzzing. The difference is bigger than mpc buzzing and trombone playing.

If you can do a razzbery, does not mean you can play trombone.

[Wilktone]

I know the Dave will not change his mind (he never does). . .
Dave is sure, I am not.

Not fair. I change my mind often, but I want to see evidence. Please go back read all the qualifications I am very careful to put into my writing. I "believe," I "think," I "prefer to approach things this way," etc.

But I doubt that this is how he's playing, even if he thinks it.

My rudimentary understanding of the physics involved leads me to believe...

Is it possible that somewhere someone can make something resembling a sound on a brass instrument without that happening? Maybe, but I doubt it. If you can show it to me I'll change my thoughts, but until then I call shenanigans.

I poked around and you're right, when singing in falsetto the vocal folds do not completely close, so that portion of the vocalist video I posted isn't an artifact of the strobe light not quite flashing at the same frequency.

But I do believe that it is the lips buzzing that excites the column of air.

Turns out that it isn't impossible.

I'm very happy to change my mind, and I think my words in this topic have not only shown examples of me acknowledging when I'm wrong, but also demonstrate when I'm speculating and not entirely sure of myself. If you've got something I need to correct, I really do want to hear about it, but that which is asserted without evidence can also be rejected without evidence.

Dave

[Doug Elliott]

I did an experiment with a visulizer and a tothpick. I puched my corners forward much more than I usually do, the same way I did years ago when asked to make an "airy" trombone sound in a record with B-A Wallin in the 70th. Looking at my lips in the visulizer my apperture look really round whem I plowed a tone. I slowly put the tothpich in the the round opening still buzzing, took the tothpick out still buzzing. Yes the lips was closing. But only at the corners. I played some tones on one trombone, the sound was ok. Still with the corners puchued forward. The sound was not bad at all. All the videos only prove how those very few trombonists lips behave, the millions of other trombonists.

Yes the lips close and open, but there is a chans that they dont hav close completily, like vocal chords sometimes dont close completely. ( Yes the lips and vocal chords do behave very much alike). I can´t prove anything, It would be very nice to make a video about the issue. But some ynger person than me has to do it. I think it is possible that slideman is right.

Next time you feel like experimenting with that, use a straw instead of a toothpick - so you know for sure there's a continuous opening through the middle.

If you watch the slow motion videos closely, the complete closure is a very rapid whip-like action. Easy to miss, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

[imsevimse]

I did an experiment with a visulizer and a tothpick. I puched my corners forward much more than I usually do, the same way I did years ago when asked to make an "airy" trombone sound in a record with B-A Wallin in the 70th. Looking at my lips in the visulizer my apperture look really round whem I plowed a tone. I slowly put the tothpich in the the round opening still buzzing, took the tothpick out still buzzing. Yes the lips was closing. But only at the corners. I played some tones on one trombone, the sound was ok. Still with the corners puchued forward. The sound was not bad at all. All the videos only prove how those very few trombonists lips behave, the millions of other trombonists.

Yes the lips close and open, but there is a chans that they dont hav close completily, like vocal chords sometimes dont close completely. ( Yes the lips and vocal chords do behave very much alike). I can´t prove anything, It would be very nice to make a video about the issue. But some ynger person than me has to do it. I think it is possible that slideman is right.

Next time you feel like experimenting with that, use a straw instead of a toothpick - so you know for sure there's a continuous opening through the middle.

If you watch the slow motion videos closely, the complete closure is a very rapid whip-like action. Easy to miss, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

I think that if you can put a toothpick in the open hole in the middle while buzzing, and the buzzing is not affected, then there IS a hole that is open in the middle while buzzing. To be able to put a straw in that hole would just prove it is possible to buzz and have an even larger hole in the middle.

I can't do it, but I'm sure Basbasun can, I know him and I've seen how his emboushure works. I've seen him frebuzz in the pedal register, even freebuzzing while doing circular breathing.

If he says he can produce freebuzzing and to keep an opening in the middle of his emboushure through that buzz I believe he can do it

/Tom

[WGWTR180]

You keep apologizing and saying negative things about the forum but this thread has been great. Who cares about what "the pros" think about this forum? They all left over a decade ago, and it was not even this forum. You want their advice, you gotta pay. And they will just tell you to sit up straight, and buzz more.

Pros left the forum because it does indeed get ugly, but also because everyone is on equal footing here. It's too easy to be called out or say something you regret.

They haven't all left.

[Doug Elliott]

I think a toothpick in the aperture doesn't prove anything.

[harrisonreed]

The commentary on this thread has for the most part completely missed the point of the referenced video, and focused on physics breaking party tricks.

Can you tie a knot into a cherry stem with your aperture while you free buzz, too? Cooooooool

Re: the toothpick in the aperture -- "I think this proves there is a hole there"

The air can't go through the toothpick, and it's tiny, so the mouth just closes around the toothpick. The joke would be to prove that there is a hole there using cake or pie, while free buzzing.

[Kbiggs]

The commentary on this thread has for the most part completely missed the point of the referenced video, and focused on physics breaking party tricks.

Isn’t that the point, though? Saying “The lips do not touch in the aperture when forming an embouchure or when playing” is physically impossible. Yes, the lips touch. They have to in order to excite the air in a closed tube, even if for a millisecond.

I agree that it may be helpful to think of the lips not touching for certain students who are having difficulty forming a useful embouchure, especially when they are “smiling” or “puckering” too much. It CAN be a pedagogical tool. But we can’t say that they DON’T touch because it’s not possible.

[Basbasun]

Dave! I am sorry I wasn´t fair to you.

Doug! I just tried the straw. Works like a charm. The lips wibrate ( open/close) in the corners but not in middle. I know it does not prove anything.

What I do wonder though, is the closing of hte lips complete when the sound of the trombone is airy, leaky and whispered? Why is it leaky? The reason for my thoughts is that singers do sometimes use a leaky sond (on purpose) the vocalchords still close but not copletelly. There is still air going through the apperture in a opning that does not close/open.

The Bernoulli effect pull the lips together. Yes. The lips do touch. But if the don´t close completely, will there still be a sound? How does it sound.

Before I decide what to believe, I like to see a video on a leaky trombone sound. So far we have not seen a video like that in this thread.

We are not going to se that video, probably because it is not made yet.

No proof.

So lets call the whole thing of.

[baileyman]

Here's an experiment. Requires one of those high speed hand driers, ear plugs, and two wet hands.

Install ear plugs.
Wash your hands and then hold them under the jet of air.
Move them slowly close together so that the air shoots between the hands at the fleshy part of the palm below the pinky finger.
Observe.

[Wilktone]

Dave! I am sorry I wasn´t fair to you.

Thank you.

Here's an experiment.

The trouble, as I see it, with these experiments (including the free buzzing with a tooth pick or straw between the lips) is that it doesn't simulate the lips interacting with the standing wave. I'm not convinced that the lips won't be forced closed by the wave reflection, even on an airy tone.

Before I decide what to believe, I like to see a video on a leaky trombone sound. So far we have not seen a video like that in this thread.

I tried yesterday with the slow motion feature on my tablet and a transparent mouthpiece. It was too hard to get a good angle by myself and the resulting video was too blurry to be useful. If I can get some help I might try again, but I don't think that my tablet camera is really up to the task. Not to mention that trying to play with the center of my lips open just won't work for me. I can play with an airy tone, but it sure doesn't feel like my aperture is staying open (but that's the problem with *feel*).

The commentary on this thread has for the most part completely missed the point of the referenced video, and focused on physics breaking party tricks.

I think it proves the point I made a while back.

It's very easy to interpret what he's advising as "try to keep your aperture open while playing." While some players might find success making it "feel" like that's what they're doing, analogies and playing sensations are unreliable ways to teach unless you are there in person to fix a problem if they don't have the desired effect. I'm not opposed to instructing this way, per se. I'm personally much more likely to use analogies and describing playing sensations while teaching in person than I do online.

The way Tucker presents his advice is too easy to interpret any way you want. Maybe you hear it and decide he's trying to suggestion you change the general aperture shape. Maybe he means to purse your corners forward. Maybe he means to start the tone with the aperture open and allow the reflection of the standing wave to set the lips to buzzing. Maybe he actually is suggesting the lips don't close while playing. It's not at all clear in that video. And that is what I find unhelpful about it.

Dave

[Doug Elliott]

The airy, leaky sound is an effect that's possible, but does anybody want to sound like that all the time? And if there is a space that is not vibrating, it is wasting a tremendous amount of air. The reason I wanted you to try the straw is that I tried it myself. I can make the sides vibrate, but it requires a very large volume of air when there's an open hole that's not vibrating - it's a big leak of wasted air. Other than a special sound effect, why would anyone want to play that way? It's like whispering really loudly - you can do it if you want to use an entire breath on each word.

[timothy42b]

I tried two toothpicks. I can freebuzz with two, but the lips are closing on the toothpick, same as closing on each other.

So I tried buzzing and pulling the two toothpicks apart vertically to creaet a space. Kind of weird, the sides of the lips do vibrate a bit, but the air all whooshes out in the moddle.

[baileyman]

...

Here's an experiment.

The trouble, as I see it, with these experiments (including the free buzzing with a tooth pick or straw between the lips) is that it doesn't simulate the lips interacting with the standing wave. I'm not convinced that the lips won't be forced closed by the wave reflection, even on an airy tone.

...
Dave

Well, here's another one, which should be definitive on "the standing wave" issue. Observe the lips in a visualizer. Or in freebuzz using a downstream set.

[Basbasun]

This two link is airy sound in singing and trumpet.
Not very many trombone players use this effect, Olle Holmqvist was a master on it (James Last) he only used it in few bars in a song, or even one note sometimes.

I can do it, not as good as Rick, yes it does take more air, it not not useful in a section (Rick played in bigbands, he only used the effect on solos though) I did get payed for it though.

The effect is useless in most playing situations, today I would not use it at all except to show it is possible.
I the 70th I was involved i lots of modern avantgard music, where un usual sound was asked for, like splitt ones multiphonics and more strange sonds. I got payed for them.

If you still want do do the "toothpick trick"
Stand in front of a mirror buzz in a vizualiser with the corners moved forward so much that you see the apperture as a round whole. Slowly put the thoothpick in that whould, try not to touch the lips, take it out still not touching the lips. Done. The buzz shoud be going through the experiment.
It does not prove anything about what happens in the horn, it proves that buzzing with open lips is possible.

[Wilktone]

This two link is airy sound in singing and trumpet.

For what it's worth, when I do the "airy tone" as an effect I still *feel* like my lips are coming completely closed (keeping in mind that how things *feel* isn't a good indication of what is happening). For me, getting this sound requires allowing the lower lip to blow out more than I would normally play. This is tricky, because if my lower lip gets blown out too far my tone can split in certain ranges. If I allow this to happen on a low Bb I get a double buzz with the pedal Bb. This used to happen to me all the time without wanting to on a Gb in the staff. I don't want to mess around with this too much because I don't want to encourage those double buzzes to return.

Since I play with much more lower lip inside the mouthpiece than most players, your milage on trying it out this way may vary.

Well, here's another one, which should be definitive on "the standing wave" issue. Observe the lips in a visualizer. Or in freebuzz using a downstream set.

Am I missing something? Free buzzing or buzzing into a visualizer won't allow the lips to interact with the standing way. You need to be playing the horn for that.

It does not prove anything about what happens in the horn, it proves that buzzing with open lips is possible.

I thought we had already established that.



I'm skeptical that this is what happens inside the mouthpiece while playing the horn, though, even for the "airy" tone. I suspect that the standing wave reflecting back against the lips will, in part, cause the lips to come together so that the aperture will close completely. I'm fairly confident that for anything resembling a normal trombone tone that this happens, in spite of what Davur Juul Magnussen thinks he's doing when he's playing the horn. And I really don't know what Dion Tucker thinks he's doing in the initial video that started this thread, but I don't think the way he describes it is very accurate or personally find it very helpful. But if thinking about things in that way clicks for you, knock yourself out. Just be aware that it's more of an analogy and that it might not work the same way for all players.

Dave

[Doug Elliott]

Magnusson's demonstration of bringing the lips together until they buzz is nearly identical to how I demonstrate finding a good buzz. But his explanation of "there must always be a gap" vs "squeezing our lips together" is taking two extremes and saying that one is right. They're both wrong.

[baileyman]

...

Well, here's another one, which should be definitive on "the standing wave" issue. Observe the lips in a visualizer. Or in freebuzz using a downstream set.

Am I missing something? Free buzzing or buzzing into a visualizer won't allow the lips to interact with the standing way. You need to be playing the horn for that.

...
Dave

Well, no, and yes.

The response is correct that there is no standing wave involved. The missed implication is that the standing wave is thus irrelevant here. The idea can be confidently dropped. And then get on with the matter of the fellow who beautifully demonstrates, says what makes sense to him, but cannot seem to convey sense to someone else.

[Basbasun]

This two link is airy sound in singing and trumpet.

For what it's worth, when I do the "airy tone" as an effect I still *feel* like my lips are coming completely closed (keeping in mind that how things *feel* isn't a good indication of what is happening). For me, getting this sound requires allowing the lower lip to blow out more than I would normally play. This is tricky, because if my lower lip gets blown out too far my tone can split in certain ranges. If I allow this to happen on a low Bb I get a double buzz with the pedal Bb. This used to happen to me all the time without wanting to on a Gb in the staff. I don't want to mess around with this too much because I don't want to encourage those double buzzes to return.

Since I play with much more lower lip inside the mouthpiece than most players, your milage on trying it out this way may vary.

Well, here's another one, which should be definitive on "the standing wave" issue. Observe the lips in a visualizer. Or in freebuzz using a downstream set.

Am I missing something? Free buzzing or buzzing into a visualizer won't allow the lips to interact with the standing way. You need to be playing the horn for that.

It does not prove anything about what happens in the horn, it proves that buzzing with open lips is possible.

I thought we had already established that.



I'm skeptical that this is what happens inside the mouthpiece while playing the horn, though, even for the "airy" tone. I suspect that the standing wave reflecting back against the lips will, in part, cause the lips to come together so that the aperture will close completely. I'm fairly confident that for anything resembling a normal trombone tone that this happens, in spite of what Davur Juul Magnussen thinks he's doing when he's playing the horn. And I really don't know what Dion Tucker thinks he's doing in the initial video that started this thread, but I don't think the way he describes it is very accurate or personally find it very helpful. But if thinking about things in that way clicks for you, knock yourself out. Just be aware that it's more of an analogy and that it might not work the same way for all players.

Dave

Well, to me it really looks like Magnussens lips do touch.
I think his lip muscles is holding the lips appart, but the air flow is pulling them together.
The same thing happen when he is blowing the horn, no airy sound whatsoever.
I heard Rick play without the airy sound, he is using the airy sound as an expresion in his solon (as gimmic?) not in a section.
I am, like all of you, sure that both lips vibrate when playing trombone, the lips close completely, at least when a "normal sound" is produced. But the airy sound?
I do wonder how is it possible to produce the airy tone? I do think some air is escaping through the closed, the lips is not closing completely, there is still a opening, prolly very small. So far there is no prof.

To make the airy sound one has to force an opening that does not close, I think in the middle of the apperture, the lips on the sides do vibrate and close othervise there would be any sound. That is my thought (not proven) if somebody have an other thought about the airy sound I will listen. Maybe someone can make a pof?

This a silly discousion though, the airy sound is what most trombone teachers work on students to get over.

[PaulTdot]

I've always wondered about people who talk about the "aperture".

How have they observed it in action? Or are they just describing their own sensations, while playing? (These are notoriously misleading; our nervous system, the way it functions in the oral cavity, seems to be *terrible* at giving us reasonable feedback about what is happening.)

I'd love to see an example of someone who can demonstrate playing with "different types of apertures" (some people go as far as describing the shape of the aperture - e.g. round vs. oval vs. flat), verified with a high-quality video.

I've never seen such a thing.

(Though I do agree that there are sensations which "feel" quite meaningful and make a difference in our playing. I'm just not at all convinced that they have anything to do with the "aperture". Almost every player I've ever talked to about brass playing describes something in their own playing that is nowhere near what they actually do when they pick up the horn.)

[Basbasun]

I've always wondered about people who talk about the "aperture".

How have they observed it in action? Or are they just describing their own sensations, while playing? (These are notoriously misleading; our nervous system, the way it functions in the oral cavity, seems to be *terrible* at giving us reasonable feedback about what is happening.)

I'd love to see an example of someone who can demonstrate playing with "different types of apertures" (some people go as far as describing the shape of the aperture - e.g. round vs. oval vs. flat), verified with a high-quality video.

I've never seen such a thing.

(Though I do agree that there are sensations which "feel" quite meaningful and make a difference in our playing. I'm just not at all convinced that they have anything to do with the "aperture". Almost every player I've ever talked to about brass playing describes something in their own playing that is nowhere near what they actually do when they pick up the horn.)

Good question.
Lets start with to forget all about the more or less strange playing like split tone, diffent kinds of multiphonics, airy whispering sound. Those are made with a manipulated embouchure,

We all have diffent lips, cheek, teeth and chin muscles and shape. Whe the sound what you are striving for, you are playing with the "right aperture".
I guess you have seen all the videos of moving apertures. They are moving fast, normaly there is no way to control the shape. You can control the sound.
Yes I have seen and heard plenty of teachers talking about the best shape of the aperture. I wish yey didn´t.

[Wilktone]

How have they observed it in action?

Yes I have seen and heard plenty of teachers talking about the best shape of the aperture. I wish yey didn´t.

I think the majority of teachers who talk about aperture shape haven't actually used a transparent mouthpiece to look at what the general "shape" of the aperture is. If you've used a transparent mouthpiece to view what the lips are doing inside a functioning embouchure the aperture can look different between different players.

Whe the sound what you are striving for, you are playing with the "right aperture".

I don't think that's always the case. Some players will strive for a particular sound quality by doing things that make their sound darker in the low and middle register, but end up restricting how their upper register works.

If you remember my thread from a few months ago, I had an issue that was almost opposite. I was bringing my corners too far forward too soon in my range. I got there because it worked really well for the extreme upper register, but was choking off my sound around high Bb.

Trying to do "what works" sometimes means we're getting better at playing wrong. That is why I argue that it's better to be as objective and clear as possible in our advice, rather than relying too much on analogy and playing sensations.

The missed implication is that the standing wave is thus irrelevant here. The idea can be confidently dropped.

Again, I don't completely understand your point. Isn't what is important for us in this context is how the lips function efficiently while playing the horn (when they are interacting with the standing wave)? If we eliminate the standing wave from he equation and demonstrate what the lip aperture can do in a rim visualizer or while free buzzing, that's not going to be completely accurate representation of what the aperture should be doing while playing the instrument.

And then get on with the matter of the fellow who beautifully demonstrates, says what makes sense to him, but cannot seem to convey sense to someone else.

Well, I still argue that regardless of how wonderful his presentation is and how much sense it makes to him, his demonstration is too vague to be reliable pedagogy. Nor does it really reflect what he demonstrates while playing the horn (and that's not even considering what's going on with his aperture). To repeat myself, I believe that it's better to be as objective and clear as possible in our advice, rather than relying too much on analogy and playing sensations.

Dave

[baileyman]

...

Well, I still argue that regardless of how wonderful his presentation is and how much sense it makes to him, his demonstration is too vague to be reliable pedagogy. Nor does it really reflect what he demonstrates while playing the horn (and that's not even considering what's going on with his aperture). To repeat myself, I believe that it's better to be as objective and clear as possible in our advice, rather than relying too much on analogy and playing sensations.

Dave

This is the adamant authoritative position.

The other position is to take his meaning as what he does, and then translate his words to also mean what he does in the usage of the translator.

Meanwhile, those listening to the translator must follow the same process to try to relate the translator's words to their own meaning.