I think all of us have fantasized about a symphony job at some point and if one was up to it, it ought to be a great job. And yet, many who get there are unhappy.
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony? (Nov 5 1995)
Quote...Job descriptions in the symphony business look simple: musicians play music; managers manage; boards make sure that money is in the bank and a workable future is in sight. Yet a team of Harvard University psychologists studying satisfaction and fulfillment in the workplace ranks orchestra players just below Federal prison employees on the happiness chart...
Quote...Players dream of cooperative orchestras in which members choose the conductors and the music and exert heavy weight on planning and finances. One veteran Philharmonic musician remembers as his happiest moment a prolonged strike in the 1970's when the orchestra players took themselves on tour...
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
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ttf_robcat2075
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ttf_Eastcheap
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ttf_BillO
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
"We are dependent on music directors and managements for what we play, where we play it and how it is presented to the public."
Seriously, what do they expect? Do the factory workers at Ford get to decide what models of cars to make, what their working hours are and what colors they come in?
From my perspective, I had always assumed this was the case. It would be total anarchy if they had 100 musicians trying to decide what the orchestra was going to play, where it was to be played and especially how it's to be played. If they want the director's job, let them step up and become a director, or leave the orchestra and strike out on your own.
As for the salary, $76K - $150K does not sound like much for the kind of education and effort required to perform at that level. This does surprise me somewhat. A rookie with a community college diploma and less than 5 years experience can make better than $76K in IT. When I graduated university in the early eighties I walked into a job at $50K writing software. $76K for a chair on the NYPO in 1995 just does not sound fair.
Seriously, what do they expect? Do the factory workers at Ford get to decide what models of cars to make, what their working hours are and what colors they come in?
From my perspective, I had always assumed this was the case. It would be total anarchy if they had 100 musicians trying to decide what the orchestra was going to play, where it was to be played and especially how it's to be played. If they want the director's job, let them step up and become a director, or leave the orchestra and strike out on your own.
As for the salary, $76K - $150K does not sound like much for the kind of education and effort required to perform at that level. This does surprise me somewhat. A rookie with a community college diploma and less than 5 years experience can make better than $76K in IT. When I graduated university in the early eighties I walked into a job at $50K writing software. $76K for a chair on the NYPO in 1995 just does not sound fair.
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ttf_BGuttman
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
A big problem in this is money. Used to be there was more of it for Orchestras. Federal subsidies have shrunk. Corporate subsidies have shrunk. And you can't get much audience in if you charge what it really costs to mount a concert with the cream of orchestral musicians.
Same thing for esoteric jazz.
In Europe they have higher subsidies for orchestras which helps a lot.
You wind up having to program a lot of the old standard pieces in an orchestra because the Public's taste for novelty is pretty negative. This wasn't helped much by a lot of the output of the composers of the 1950s and 1960s where atonality and amusicality seemed to be a fairly common thread. Add to this greedy copyright owners who charge exorbitant prices for renting music and you have a recipe for what is happening today.
Same thing for esoteric jazz.
In Europe they have higher subsidies for orchestras which helps a lot.
You wind up having to program a lot of the old standard pieces in an orchestra because the Public's taste for novelty is pretty negative. This wasn't helped much by a lot of the output of the composers of the 1950s and 1960s where atonality and amusicality seemed to be a fairly common thread. Add to this greedy copyright owners who charge exorbitant prices for renting music and you have a recipe for what is happening today.
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Henry Ford always said:
" You can have a Model-T any color you want, as long as you want one black."
Same thing with orchestra gigs. You can play in any orchestra you want, as long as you want to play in one and listen to string players hate each others guts, and ***** about playing Beethoven 5, which pays the bills.
" You can have a Model-T any color you want, as long as you want one black."
Same thing with orchestra gigs. You can play in any orchestra you want, as long as you want to play in one and listen to string players hate each others guts, and ***** about playing Beethoven 5, which pays the bills.
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ttf_BillO
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
I agree with much of what you say Bruce, but has it really been any different over time?
At least today, the likes of myself can afford to go see the symphony. Move the calendar back 200++ years and only the stinking rich would ever get in to hear/see a symphony, top-tier opera or ballet. It was still supported by governments and the super rich back then.
If you want to get folks in to hear you play, you have to play what they want to hear. If left up to the musicians, this may not happen. It's only my opinion, but I think the way the NYPO is depicted as being run in that article is the right way. I don't know if it has changed in the last 20 years though.
At least today, the likes of myself can afford to go see the symphony. Move the calendar back 200++ years and only the stinking rich would ever get in to hear/see a symphony, top-tier opera or ballet. It was still supported by governments and the super rich back then.
If you want to get folks in to hear you play, you have to play what they want to hear. If left up to the musicians, this may not happen. It's only my opinion, but I think the way the NYPO is depicted as being run in that article is the right way. I don't know if it has changed in the last 20 years though.
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ttf_sf105
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: BillO on May 15, 2016, 12:54PM"We are dependent on music directors and managements for what we play, where we play it and how it is presented to the public."
Seriously, what do they expect? Do the factory workers at Ford get to decide what models of cars to make, what their working hours are and what colors they come in?
From my perspective, I had always assumed this was the case. It would be total anarchy if they had 100 musicians trying to decide what the orchestra was going to play, where it was to be played and especially how it's to be played. If they want the director's job, let them step up and become a director, or leave the orchestra and strike out on your own.
That's exactly how several world-class orchestras are run, as cooperatives. in London, this includes several of the famous bands. I believe also Berlin (which votes for its own conductor) and Vienna. Usually, there's a committee of players that actually runs things, plus some management who work for the orchestra.
I'm sure there are problems, but this allows the orchestra to look after its own interests better than any collection of the financial elite who joined the board for connections. We've never suffered from the recent lockout spree that nearly wrecked major US orchestras.
Seriously, what do they expect? Do the factory workers at Ford get to decide what models of cars to make, what their working hours are and what colors they come in?
From my perspective, I had always assumed this was the case. It would be total anarchy if they had 100 musicians trying to decide what the orchestra was going to play, where it was to be played and especially how it's to be played. If they want the director's job, let them step up and become a director, or leave the orchestra and strike out on your own.
That's exactly how several world-class orchestras are run, as cooperatives. in London, this includes several of the famous bands. I believe also Berlin (which votes for its own conductor) and Vienna. Usually, there's a committee of players that actually runs things, plus some management who work for the orchestra.
I'm sure there are problems, but this allows the orchestra to look after its own interests better than any collection of the financial elite who joined the board for connections. We've never suffered from the recent lockout spree that nearly wrecked major US orchestras.
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ttf_robcat2075
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
As far as money, I don't think there has ever been a great time for symphony orchestras. If you read the histories of US orchestras it's a pretty consistent parade of chronic financial distress, strikes, lockouts, bankruptcies, closings, reorganizations...
In the best of times they are always on the edge of break-even, then when a war or financial crisis rolls in, things go to pieces as the rich donors who pay most of the bills have to cut back.
Post-war European governments subsidized quite a few orchestras but that is ending too. Some orchestras are being cut off entirely or merged with others as governments become more reluctant to spend tax money on something that isn't clearly guns, bridges or butter.
In the best of times they are always on the edge of break-even, then when a war or financial crisis rolls in, things go to pieces as the rich donors who pay most of the bills have to cut back.
Post-war European governments subsidized quite a few orchestras but that is ending too. Some orchestras are being cut off entirely or merged with others as governments become more reluctant to spend tax money on something that isn't clearly guns, bridges or butter.
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ttf_blast
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
You take a job in an orchestra, you become a musical prostitute.... you do what other people want you to do for money. Prostitutes are not happy people.
Chris Stearn
Chris Stearn
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ttf_BGuttman
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: blast on May 15, 2016, 03:13PMYou take a job in an orchestra, you become a musical prostitute.... you do what other people want you to do for money. Prostitutes are not happy people.
Chris Stearn
Score one for those of us who can afford to take only the jobs that interest us.
Hats off to those of you who can make a living at it. Not an easy road.
Chris Stearn
Score one for those of us who can afford to take only the jobs that interest us.
Hats off to those of you who can make a living at it. Not an easy road.
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ttf_BMadsen
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: blast on May 15, 2016, 03:13PMYou take a job in an orchestra, you become a musical prostitute.... you do what other people want you to do for money. Prostitutes are not happy people.
Chris Stearn
Quote from: BGuttman on May 15, 2016, 04:29PMScore one for those of us who can afford to take only the jobs that interest us.
Hats off to those of you who can make a living at it. Not an easy road.
It's about perspective.
I'll admit, when I graduated, I was a bit disillusioned - I felt like my college had sold me a false bill of goods. After getting a teaching degree (1 year program because of my undergrad), I taught for 5 years in the NYC Public Schools. Quit that because I was miserable and felt playing any gig would be better then doing that. 5 years later, I'm doing well as a freelancer, but playing very little of what I thought I would be doing at this point when I graduated from college, and frankly, when I quit teaching. Am I happy? Definitely. But, I have a different perspective - I know what I could be doing, and anytime I am playing a gig that's less than ideal, I compare it to teaching. I've only had one gig that made me want to go back to teaching, so I turn that call down (several calls a year, actually - but it's so easy to say no to). Otherwise, my perspective of having done another job for several years makes it easier when playing a concerto contest concert with an orchestra behind a bunch of high schoolers doing rep I've played more times than I can remember - I can always remember standing in front of the classroom and how horrible that was.
Chris Stearn
Quote from: BGuttman on May 15, 2016, 04:29PMScore one for those of us who can afford to take only the jobs that interest us.
Hats off to those of you who can make a living at it. Not an easy road.
It's about perspective.
I'll admit, when I graduated, I was a bit disillusioned - I felt like my college had sold me a false bill of goods. After getting a teaching degree (1 year program because of my undergrad), I taught for 5 years in the NYC Public Schools. Quit that because I was miserable and felt playing any gig would be better then doing that. 5 years later, I'm doing well as a freelancer, but playing very little of what I thought I would be doing at this point when I graduated from college, and frankly, when I quit teaching. Am I happy? Definitely. But, I have a different perspective - I know what I could be doing, and anytime I am playing a gig that's less than ideal, I compare it to teaching. I've only had one gig that made me want to go back to teaching, so I turn that call down (several calls a year, actually - but it's so easy to say no to). Otherwise, my perspective of having done another job for several years makes it easier when playing a concerto contest concert with an orchestra behind a bunch of high schoolers doing rep I've played more times than I can remember - I can always remember standing in front of the classroom and how horrible that was.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
What are the actual hours required on the job at the NYP? When all is said and done, probably not very close to the hours required for a top level programmer or a lawyer or a physician. Many of the members of that orchestra are professors, so they are not sitting in the orchestra all day.
Of course, there is a lot of work that needs to be put in to play at that level. But these are musicians -- practicing is sort of what musicians do for fun. And I'd wager that 99% of people who put in 6 hours a day hoping for a shot at the NYP will never be as good as Alessi, and of the 1% that does get there (all 7 of them) only one will get the slot when it opens up. So the Alessis out there probably aren't working quite as hard as the young cats trying to get these jobs. Not in the sense of "I need to do nothing but practice just so I can get a job". Suddenly 75K to 150K doesn't really sound that unfair. Hours worked, the fact that the musicians are mostly maintaining (at least not desparately trying to improve) their skills ... seems like a fair salary to me. A lot of wannabes might not think it's fair because of school costs and how hard they think they are working. But you don't get paid for how hard to have to work to maintain a skillset. Just for how good your skillset is.
As for complaining about music and directors ... have you met musicians before? That's what we do. It's not surprising that a group of people who need to have a lot of confidence to perform at a top level will all think they know more than everyone else. I think this article is mostly describing the phenomenon that talented musicians get paid really well compared to how much work they actually have to do but wish they got paid more, and it also observes that musical groups complain a lot. How many bands break up due to infighting?
Of course, there is a lot of work that needs to be put in to play at that level. But these are musicians -- practicing is sort of what musicians do for fun. And I'd wager that 99% of people who put in 6 hours a day hoping for a shot at the NYP will never be as good as Alessi, and of the 1% that does get there (all 7 of them) only one will get the slot when it opens up. So the Alessis out there probably aren't working quite as hard as the young cats trying to get these jobs. Not in the sense of "I need to do nothing but practice just so I can get a job". Suddenly 75K to 150K doesn't really sound that unfair. Hours worked, the fact that the musicians are mostly maintaining (at least not desparately trying to improve) their skills ... seems like a fair salary to me. A lot of wannabes might not think it's fair because of school costs and how hard they think they are working. But you don't get paid for how hard to have to work to maintain a skillset. Just for how good your skillset is.
As for complaining about music and directors ... have you met musicians before? That's what we do. It's not surprising that a group of people who need to have a lot of confidence to perform at a top level will all think they know more than everyone else. I think this article is mostly describing the phenomenon that talented musicians get paid really well compared to how much work they actually have to do but wish they got paid more, and it also observes that musical groups complain a lot. How many bands break up due to infighting?
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ttf_robcat2075
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: BillO on May 15, 2016, 12:54PMAs for the salary, $76K - $150K does not sound like much for the kind of education and effort required to perform at that level. This does surprise me somewhat. A rookie with a community college diploma and less than 5 years experience can make better than $76K in IT. When I graduated university in the early eighties I walked into a job at $50K writing software. $76K for a chair on the NYPO in 1995 just does not sound fair.
Multiply by about 1.5 for today's dollars.
$114,000 would not be a hopelessly sad number today.
And market forces at work. There probably aren't 200 capable applicants for that coding job. There could very well be that many for a section string player job.
Multiply by about 1.5 for today's dollars.
$114,000 would not be a hopelessly sad number today.
And market forces at work. There probably aren't 200 capable applicants for that coding job. There could very well be that many for a section string player job.
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ttf_BillO
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: blast on May 15, 2016, 03:13PMYou take a job in an orchestra, you become a musical prostitute.... you do what other people want you to do for money. Prostitutes are not happy people.
Chris Stearn
This is true of any career type job though. You do what people are willing to pay money for. Even if you are the 'boss', you are still working doing what your customers ask you to do for money. If you have an earned income, you are a prostitute (so to speak).
Chris Stearn
This is true of any career type job though. You do what people are willing to pay money for. Even if you are the 'boss', you are still working doing what your customers ask you to do for money. If you have an earned income, you are a prostitute (so to speak).
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ttf_Dombat
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Damn... I must be doing something wrong. I like my job. (Although it is an opera, not symphony orchestra so maybe therein lies the difference)
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: robcat2075 on May 15, 2016, 07:35PMMultiply by about 1.5 for today's dollars.
$114,000 would not be a hopelessly sad number today.
And market forces at work. There probably aren't 200 capable applicants for that coding job. There could very well be that many for a section string player job.
In the Seattle Symphony, $114,000 is not the average salary. I think it is more like $78,000. In this city, there are some public school teachers making close to that. The Microsoft, Amazon, Boeing workers with similar time in school are into the six figure range. A one bedroom in Seattle costs about $2,500 a month to rent.
$114,000 would not be a hopelessly sad number today.
And market forces at work. There probably aren't 200 capable applicants for that coding job. There could very well be that many for a section string player job.
In the Seattle Symphony, $114,000 is not the average salary. I think it is more like $78,000. In this city, there are some public school teachers making close to that. The Microsoft, Amazon, Boeing workers with similar time in school are into the six figure range. A one bedroom in Seattle costs about $2,500 a month to rent.
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ttf_SethMatrix
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
I think that professional orchestral playing is probably one of the most competitive job markets. Probably right up there with being in the NBA or NFL. Musicians will work for less money than they deserve because they love the work, but they are being taken advantage of IMHO.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
But you're forgetting that working as a musician on a salary is not really work. How many actual hours are put in at the symphony for those $78,000. And for that matter what is the average salary for a 40 hr work week? I'm not having a go. I just know that if you already practice whether you get paid or not to do so, and 95% of all the music you'll ever play comes on the Cherry orchestra part disc, and you already know all of the challenging licks ... how is that realllly work? $78,000 seems fair for not really having heavy hours and basically just maintaining a skillset based around a finite number of challenging pieces.
I seriously would like to know the weekly hours for that position.
As for pro athletes vs orchestra musicians, talking about money is moot. The NFL alone brings in so much money. And winning brings in more. Orchestras aren't competing against each other, so there is no such thing as a superstar musician that you need to pay $12M to keep winning games -- a single musician is not going to win any games. Personally I think there are actually less sports superstars (ie the guys who are so good that their team almost always wins, like Tom Brady) than there are elite musicians when you think about the pool of candidates. Every major orchestra has three monster trombonists with equally qualified guys waiting to audition. Only a few NFL teams have Tom Bradys and Peyton Mannings, and that shows that there are no equally talented guys waiting to get slots on the teams that have not so stellar QBs. That's part of the reason why their pay is so high. "Wow, you threw a 95 yard touchdown pass, and I've never seen anything like that before" is not the same as "Wow you played Bolero perfectly and I've never heard anyone do that before" (because the last 10 auditioners played Bolero perfectly as well)
I seriously would like to know the weekly hours for that position.
As for pro athletes vs orchestra musicians, talking about money is moot. The NFL alone brings in so much money. And winning brings in more. Orchestras aren't competing against each other, so there is no such thing as a superstar musician that you need to pay $12M to keep winning games -- a single musician is not going to win any games. Personally I think there are actually less sports superstars (ie the guys who are so good that their team almost always wins, like Tom Brady) than there are elite musicians when you think about the pool of candidates. Every major orchestra has three monster trombonists with equally qualified guys waiting to audition. Only a few NFL teams have Tom Bradys and Peyton Mannings, and that shows that there are no equally talented guys waiting to get slots on the teams that have not so stellar QBs. That's part of the reason why their pay is so high. "Wow, you threw a 95 yard touchdown pass, and I've never seen anything like that before" is not the same as "Wow you played Bolero perfectly and I've never heard anyone do that before" (because the last 10 auditioners played Bolero perfectly as well)
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ttf_SethMatrix
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:29AMBut you're forgetting that working as a musician on a salary is not really work. How many actual hours are put in at the symphony for those $78,000. And for that matter what is the average salary for a 40 hr work week? I'm not having a go. I just know that if you already practice whether you get paid or not to do so, and 95% of all the music you'll ever play comes on the Cherry orchestra part disc, and you already know all of the challenging licks ... how is that realllly work? $78,000 seems fair for not really having heavy hours and basically just maintaining a skillset based around a finite number of challenging pieces.
I seriously would like to know the weekly hours for that position.
Good points.
What about the practice it took to get there? We all know it takes years and years of practice at the highest level to even have a shot at those positions. That is where the real work goes in.
I seriously would like to know the weekly hours for that position.
Good points.
What about the practice it took to get there? We all know it takes years and years of practice at the highest level to even have a shot at those positions. That is where the real work goes in.
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ttf_sabutin
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:29AMBut you're forgetting that working as a musician on a salary is not really work. How many actual hours are put in at the symphony for those $78,000. And for that matter what is the average salary for a 40 hr work week? I'm not having a go. I just know that if you already practice whether you get paid or not to do so, and 95% of all the music you'll ever play comes on the Cherry orchestra part disc, and you already know all of the challenging licks ... how is that realllly work? $78,000 seems fair for not really having heavy hours and basically just maintaining a skillset based around a finite number of challenging pieces.
I seriously would like to know the weekly hours for that position.
---snip---
The problem is..."hours" need to be multiplied by "stress level" to come up with an adequate salary, and the emphasis on nearly perfect playing that exists in even regional orchestras creates emotional stress...for brass players particularly...that is nearly unquantifiable.
S.
I seriously would like to know the weekly hours for that position.
---snip---
The problem is..."hours" need to be multiplied by "stress level" to come up with an adequate salary, and the emphasis on nearly perfect playing that exists in even regional orchestras creates emotional stress...for brass players particularly...that is nearly unquantifiable.
S.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: sabutin on May 16, 2016, 08:54AMThe problem is..."hours" need to be multiplied by "stress level" to come up with an adequate salary, and the emphasis on nearly perfect playing that exists in even regional orchestras creates emotional stress...for brass players particularly...that is nearly unquantifiable.
S.
Yes, of course! Stress management is part of the skillset you need to maintain. How stressed do you get as a working musician? How stressed do the people already in those jobs get? They probably were stressed at their audition, but professional musicians don't stay pro very long biting their nails over tuba mirum. I'd wager that you don't get very stressed out over your gigs, Sam, because you're a pro. I don't sweat any of my gigs. Norman Bolter from the BSO isn't sweating any gigs, from when I was at UMass.
Now what's really funny was the call I got last week to play alto on Mozart's Requiem for a project put together by a touring choir. The choir was a cohesive group but the director was trying to piecemeal the orchestra together from local musicians and leaned heavily on the Army brass musicians. Mozart Requiem, reconstructed alto part doubling the voices, 15 hours of rehearsals and a two hour concert. The pay was 100,000 KRW or about $70. I had to say no. I felt bad, because any concert is good for the community and it was probably a very cheap price for tickets. If orchestras were paying $70 for nearly twenty hours of work, then you could complain about conditions for working musicians.
S.
Yes, of course! Stress management is part of the skillset you need to maintain. How stressed do you get as a working musician? How stressed do the people already in those jobs get? They probably were stressed at their audition, but professional musicians don't stay pro very long biting their nails over tuba mirum. I'd wager that you don't get very stressed out over your gigs, Sam, because you're a pro. I don't sweat any of my gigs. Norman Bolter from the BSO isn't sweating any gigs, from when I was at UMass.
Now what's really funny was the call I got last week to play alto on Mozart's Requiem for a project put together by a touring choir. The choir was a cohesive group but the director was trying to piecemeal the orchestra together from local musicians and leaned heavily on the Army brass musicians. Mozart Requiem, reconstructed alto part doubling the voices, 15 hours of rehearsals and a two hour concert. The pay was 100,000 KRW or about $70. I had to say no. I felt bad, because any concert is good for the community and it was probably a very cheap price for tickets. If orchestras were paying $70 for nearly twenty hours of work, then you could complain about conditions for working musicians.
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ttf_Dombat
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:29AMBut you're forgetting that working as a musician on a salary is not really work. How many actual hours are put in at the symphony for those $78,000. And for that matter what is the average salary for a 40 hr work week? I'm not having a go. I just know that if you already practice whether you get paid or not to do so, and 95% of all the music you'll ever play comes on the Cherry orchestra part disc, and you already know all of the challenging licks ... how is that realllly work? $78,000 seems fair for not really having heavy hours and basically just maintaining a skillset based around a finite number of challenging pieces.
I seriously would like to know the weekly hours for that position.
German orchestras are limited to a maximum of 10 calls in one week. This means up to 30 hours per week (this is a maximum of course, it could be less). Warm up, practice and section rehearsals are not included in this.
Yes... it is easier to play the 'hard stuff' the more you do it however you are also constantly in a performance environment. This week alone I have spent 18 hours performing (4 operas, 1 ballet and 1 chamber performance). Small stuff is allowed to happen however out of pride, teamwork, musicality, pressure from the conductor... whatever, you are expected to work to the best of your ability. Stress in the same sense of audition nerves does lower itself however performance is physically, emotionally and mentally draining.
I seriously would like to know the weekly hours for that position.
German orchestras are limited to a maximum of 10 calls in one week. This means up to 30 hours per week (this is a maximum of course, it could be less). Warm up, practice and section rehearsals are not included in this.
Yes... it is easier to play the 'hard stuff' the more you do it however you are also constantly in a performance environment. This week alone I have spent 18 hours performing (4 operas, 1 ballet and 1 chamber performance). Small stuff is allowed to happen however out of pride, teamwork, musicality, pressure from the conductor... whatever, you are expected to work to the best of your ability. Stress in the same sense of audition nerves does lower itself however performance is physically, emotionally and mentally draining.
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ttf_BGuttman
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
I'm sure American orchestras would like to pay more to the players. Problem is there is the constant balance over money. If you raise the minimum wage for the section players (and comparable raises for the Principals) you have to find that money from somewhere. Even if the Chairman of the Orchestra Board took a salary of $0 you wouldn't have that much money to distribute among the players. So you either have to increase the seat price (chancy -- there is a point of diminishing returns) or find more external funding.
It's almost standard operating procedure that orchestra musicians find additional ways to earn money. Most commonly by giving music lessons. But some run stores, or publishing companies, or moonlight in other ways.
It's almost standard operating procedure that orchestra musicians find additional ways to earn money. Most commonly by giving music lessons. But some run stores, or publishing companies, or moonlight in other ways.
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ttf_Ellrod
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Don't worry, be happy.
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ttf_Dombat
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
I forgot to add that in addition to the hours being unpredictable, they are split throughout the day, morning, afternoon and evening calls. This can be extremely difficult for musicians with families, especially when both play in the same orchestra
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ttf_blast
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 09:04AMYes, of course! Stress management is part of the skillset you need to maintain. How stressed do you get as a working musician? How stressed do the people already in those jobs get? They probably were stressed at their audition, but professional musicians don't stay pro very long biting their nails over tuba mirum. I'd wager that you don't get very stressed out over your gigs, Sam, because you're a pro. I don't sweat any of my gigs. Norman Bolter from the BSO isn't sweating any gigs, from when I was at UMass.
Now what's really funny was the call I got last week to play alto on Mozart's Requiem for a project put together by a touring choir. The choir was a cohesive group but the director was trying to piecemeal the orchestra together from local musicians and leaned heavily on the Army brass musicians. Mozart Requiem, reconstructed alto part doubling the voices, 15 hours of rehearsals and a two hour concert. The pay was 100,000 KRW or about $70. I had to say no. I felt bad, because any concert is good for the community and it was probably a very cheap price for tickets. If orchestras were paying $70 for nearly twenty hours of work, then you could complain about conditions for working musicians.
Perhaps if you have not actually worked with a world class orchestra, you would be unaware of the pressures involved. It can indeed be a joy, but there are times when it can be very stressful indeed.... for ANYONE.
Chris Stearn
Now what's really funny was the call I got last week to play alto on Mozart's Requiem for a project put together by a touring choir. The choir was a cohesive group but the director was trying to piecemeal the orchestra together from local musicians and leaned heavily on the Army brass musicians. Mozart Requiem, reconstructed alto part doubling the voices, 15 hours of rehearsals and a two hour concert. The pay was 100,000 KRW or about $70. I had to say no. I felt bad, because any concert is good for the community and it was probably a very cheap price for tickets. If orchestras were paying $70 for nearly twenty hours of work, then you could complain about conditions for working musicians.
Perhaps if you have not actually worked with a world class orchestra, you would be unaware of the pressures involved. It can indeed be a joy, but there are times when it can be very stressful indeed.... for ANYONE.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_patrickosmith
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Doug Yeo wrote up a fairly comprehensive "pros & cons" of being a symphony musician entitled "Pros and Cons to a Career in Orchestral Music." It's a good read if you haven't already read it. It's a bit dated. The monetary figures are not in today's figures, but the general ideas are as true today as they were back then.
http://www.yeodoug.com/articles/text/procon.html
http://www.yeodoug.com/articles/text/procon.html
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ttf_sabutin
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 09:04AM---snip---
I'd wager that you don't get very stressed out over your gigs, Sam, because you're a pro.
---snip---
I'll tell you what, Harrison. You would lose that bet. I get "stressed out"...at least to some degree...because I am a pro. As Joe Shepley...recently passed away but one of the busiest NYC studio lead trumpet players through the '60s, '70s and beyond...once said to me, "You're only as good as your last note." Truer words were never spoken. Now...some gigs (the ones I most enjoy and the ones on which I have based a great deal of my career) are less stressful in the "perfection" sense, but they require success in other ways.
Jazz gigs? Can't make the changes? Don't understand that particular style? Can't make the tempos? Don't know the repertoire? (A repertoire potentially so vast that no one knows it all.) Not enough endurance to play 2 or 3 good sets of quartet or quintet music? Yer outta here!!!
Big band work? Can't blend? Don't sightread fairly well? Not enough endurance for lead playing? Not enough volume and control in general? Too much volume? Can't play at least a decent solo? Eventually? Fuggedaboutit!!!
Latin work? Can't make it through 3 sets at fff volume playing long mambos and moñas mostly in the
-> 
range? Don't understand clavé or the rhythmic language in general? Vamos, amigo!!!
Doubling? You mess up on one of your doubles and the above "You're only as good as your last note" concept spreads right on out into your main axe.
Let alone dealing with the many vagaries of NYC travel. Late? No excuse.
If I have any stress-reduction tactic, it's this:
I practice my butt off.
Got a free rehearsal tomorrow on bass trombone? (And I do a lot of free rehearsals, usually of the best music in NYC as far as I am concerned. If you are really serious about what you are doing musically...which means playing stuff that isn't a complete retread...there is little or no real money in it. Not now; not in this YouTubed-out culture as it stands.) I will guarantee that I have been practicing that damned bass trombone off and on for at least a week. Why? Because nothing is "free." Every time you play well you get in line for other work. Every time you don't? What Shepley said.
Later...
Gotta go practice now.
For Wednesday.
Bet on it.
AG
I'd wager that you don't get very stressed out over your gigs, Sam, because you're a pro.
---snip---
I'll tell you what, Harrison. You would lose that bet. I get "stressed out"...at least to some degree...because I am a pro. As Joe Shepley...recently passed away but one of the busiest NYC studio lead trumpet players through the '60s, '70s and beyond...once said to me, "You're only as good as your last note." Truer words were never spoken. Now...some gigs (the ones I most enjoy and the ones on which I have based a great deal of my career) are less stressful in the "perfection" sense, but they require success in other ways.
Jazz gigs? Can't make the changes? Don't understand that particular style? Can't make the tempos? Don't know the repertoire? (A repertoire potentially so vast that no one knows it all.) Not enough endurance to play 2 or 3 good sets of quartet or quintet music? Yer outta here!!!
Big band work? Can't blend? Don't sightread fairly well? Not enough endurance for lead playing? Not enough volume and control in general? Too much volume? Can't play at least a decent solo? Eventually? Fuggedaboutit!!!
Latin work? Can't make it through 3 sets at fff volume playing long mambos and moñas mostly in the
-> range? Don't understand clavé or the rhythmic language in general? Vamos, amigo!!!Doubling? You mess up on one of your doubles and the above "You're only as good as your last note" concept spreads right on out into your main axe.
Let alone dealing with the many vagaries of NYC travel. Late? No excuse.
If I have any stress-reduction tactic, it's this:
I practice my butt off.
Got a free rehearsal tomorrow on bass trombone? (And I do a lot of free rehearsals, usually of the best music in NYC as far as I am concerned. If you are really serious about what you are doing musically...which means playing stuff that isn't a complete retread...there is little or no real money in it. Not now; not in this YouTubed-out culture as it stands.) I will guarantee that I have been practicing that damned bass trombone off and on for at least a week. Why? Because nothing is "free." Every time you play well you get in line for other work. Every time you don't? What Shepley said.
Later...
Gotta go practice now.
For Wednesday.
Bet on it.
AG
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ttf_itisunknown
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: sabutin on May 16, 2016, 08:54AMand the emphasis on nearly perfect playing that exists in even regional orchestras creates emotional stress...for brass players particularly...that is nearly unquantifiable.
S.
Yes...and as some would compare to athletes, there really is no comparison. Quarterbacks have a TD to interception ratio and a completion ratio...both "far" from perfect. NBA stars have free throw percentages well under 100%. Pitchers give up hits and walk batters regularly. Batters are at the top of their game by hitting over .300 (30%)
I imagine the stress for an orchestral brass player is more aligned with that of a surgeon. Perfection is the standard. Mistakes just can not happen. I'm in awe.
S.
Yes...and as some would compare to athletes, there really is no comparison. Quarterbacks have a TD to interception ratio and a completion ratio...both "far" from perfect. NBA stars have free throw percentages well under 100%. Pitchers give up hits and walk batters regularly. Batters are at the top of their game by hitting over .300 (30%)
I imagine the stress for an orchestral brass player is more aligned with that of a surgeon. Perfection is the standard. Mistakes just can not happen. I'm in awe.
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ttf_Ellrod
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: itisunknown on May 16, 2016, 05:10PM
Yes...and as some would compare to athletes, there really is no comparison. Quarterbacks have a TD to interception ratio and a completion ratio...both "far" from perfect. NBA stars have free throw percentages well under 100%. Pitchers give up hits and walk batters regularly. Batters are at the top of their game by hitting over .300 (30%)
I imagine the stress for an orchestral brass player is more aligned with that of a surgeon. Perfection is the standard. Mistakes just can not happen. I'm in awe.
I don't know if cacking Bolero has quite the same consequences as screwing up someone's open heart surgery.
The acccounts of stress and depression in the lower levels of a bureaucracy or a symphony reminds me of the cliche analogy of the sled dog team: Only the lead dog gets to enjoy the view.
Yes...and as some would compare to athletes, there really is no comparison. Quarterbacks have a TD to interception ratio and a completion ratio...both "far" from perfect. NBA stars have free throw percentages well under 100%. Pitchers give up hits and walk batters regularly. Batters are at the top of their game by hitting over .300 (30%)
I imagine the stress for an orchestral brass player is more aligned with that of a surgeon. Perfection is the standard. Mistakes just can not happen. I'm in awe.
I don't know if cacking Bolero has quite the same consequences as screwing up someone's open heart surgery.
The acccounts of stress and depression in the lower levels of a bureaucracy or a symphony reminds me of the cliche analogy of the sled dog team: Only the lead dog gets to enjoy the view.
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ttf_patrickosmith
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Except for the lack of ongoing competition --i.e., once you've earned your tenure in the orchestra, you no longer have to win competitions-- I think *golf* has many similarities to playing an instrument professionally. Always seeking perfection on every shot, lot's of discipline in many different types of golf shirts, years of practicing under expert guidance, mind games, very high stress (miss this putt and you lose $10M), finesse, etc.
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ttf_robcat2075
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: itisunknown on May 16, 2016, 05:10PMI imagine the stress for an orchestral brass player is more aligned with that of a surgeon. Perfection is the standard. Mistakes just can not happen. I'm in awe.
As a person who's had an unnecessary surgery because of a mistaken diagnosis, I'm not quite so in awe... of the surgeons.
I don't think surgeons talk in terms of perfection at all. They talk in terms of acceptable rates of failure vs. success. And when they make serious mistakes it's mostly hushed up in out-of-court settlements.
Thousands of Mistakes Made in Surgery Every Year
QuoteMore than 4,000 preventable mistakes occur in surgery every year at a cost of more than $1.3 billion in medical malpractice payouts, according a new study.
How preventable? Well, researchers call them "never events" because they are the kind of surgical mistakes that should never happen, like performing the wrong procedure or leaving a sponge inside a patient's body after surgery.
Something is out-of-whack in the universe when a surgeon's mistakes have greater consequences than a soloist's but also have a system in place to quickly cover them up.
As a person who's had an unnecessary surgery because of a mistaken diagnosis, I'm not quite so in awe... of the surgeons.
I don't think surgeons talk in terms of perfection at all. They talk in terms of acceptable rates of failure vs. success. And when they make serious mistakes it's mostly hushed up in out-of-court settlements.
Thousands of Mistakes Made in Surgery Every Year
QuoteMore than 4,000 preventable mistakes occur in surgery every year at a cost of more than $1.3 billion in medical malpractice payouts, according a new study.
How preventable? Well, researchers call them "never events" because they are the kind of surgical mistakes that should never happen, like performing the wrong procedure or leaving a sponge inside a patient's body after surgery.
Something is out-of-whack in the universe when a surgeon's mistakes have greater consequences than a soloist's but also have a system in place to quickly cover them up.
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
I don't think that sports analogies hold any water here.
In the "classical" musical world there are three very very limiting factors:
1. You are allowed to do ONLY one thing. ONLY that which is printed on a page.
2. The page might have been printed 200 years ago. So, you've had your entire life to do ONLY that one thing, which has been set in stone for 200 years. ( Brahms or Berlioz etc. etc.)
3. You may have already done that ONE THING hundreds of times.( Beethoven 5)
In sport you've got an infinite amount of choice, all the while trying to avoid trained killers who are looking to injure you seriously-- or at the very least make you look like a complete idiot.
In the "classical" musical world there are three very very limiting factors:
1. You are allowed to do ONLY one thing. ONLY that which is printed on a page.
2. The page might have been printed 200 years ago. So, you've had your entire life to do ONLY that one thing, which has been set in stone for 200 years. ( Brahms or Berlioz etc. etc.)
3. You may have already done that ONE THING hundreds of times.( Beethoven 5)
In sport you've got an infinite amount of choice, all the while trying to avoid trained killers who are looking to injure you seriously-- or at the very least make you look like a complete idiot.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Sam. You are exactly right about practice reducing stress. The stuff you said about endurance issued getting you fired from a BQ or salsa band also means you wouldn't have been hired in the first place so that's moot. You can't be stressed over a hypothetical job you aren't good enough to get hired for. But you don't have that issue since you practice and have a reputation to uphold.
All this stuff about stress came about because someone had said that despite the generally short hours, the extreme stress over notes and playing should mean you get paid more than 78-150k. I don't think that argument holds water.
All this stuff about stress came about because someone had said that despite the generally short hours, the extreme stress over notes and playing should mean you get paid more than 78-150k. I don't think that argument holds water.
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ttf_Dombat
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 16, 2016, 08:00PMI don't think that sports analogies hold any water here.
In the "classical" musical world there are three very very limiting factors:
1. You are allowed to do ONLY one thing. ONLY that which is printed on a page.
2. The page might have been printed 200 years ago. So, you've had your entire life to do ONLY that one thing, which has been set in stone for 200 years. ( Brahms or Berlioz etc. etc.)
3. You may have already done that ONE THING hundreds of times.( Beethoven 5)
In sport you've got an infinite amount of choice, all the while trying to avoid trained killers who are looking to injure you seriously-- or at the very least make you look like a complete idiot.
While I do avoid (many) sport analogies myself in teaching and playing there are also limitations in sport, their goal is to kick, hit, throw, run, slide the ball/egg into a defined region whilst following a set of defined rules. In an orchestra we can interpret these dots, balance, dynamic, tempo, articulation, tone colour, orchestration (in terms of weighting of strings), rubato, emphasis... the list could go on. The printed music is just a guide and there is no 100% correct interpretation (though there is wrong).
Why do we talk about hreat orchestras and conductors when the music has been set in stone for 200 years? Because the music is still living and being intepreted and PERFORMED.
On top of this the intensity and chamber skills of a great orchestra in a live setting make the music not just different every time but exciting.
This is what makes it worthwhile.
In the "classical" musical world there are three very very limiting factors:
1. You are allowed to do ONLY one thing. ONLY that which is printed on a page.
2. The page might have been printed 200 years ago. So, you've had your entire life to do ONLY that one thing, which has been set in stone for 200 years. ( Brahms or Berlioz etc. etc.)
3. You may have already done that ONE THING hundreds of times.( Beethoven 5)
In sport you've got an infinite amount of choice, all the while trying to avoid trained killers who are looking to injure you seriously-- or at the very least make you look like a complete idiot.
While I do avoid (many) sport analogies myself in teaching and playing there are also limitations in sport, their goal is to kick, hit, throw, run, slide the ball/egg into a defined region whilst following a set of defined rules. In an orchestra we can interpret these dots, balance, dynamic, tempo, articulation, tone colour, orchestration (in terms of weighting of strings), rubato, emphasis... the list could go on. The printed music is just a guide and there is no 100% correct interpretation (though there is wrong).
Why do we talk about hreat orchestras and conductors when the music has been set in stone for 200 years? Because the music is still living and being intepreted and PERFORMED.
On top of this the intensity and chamber skills of a great orchestra in a live setting make the music not just different every time but exciting.
This is what makes it worthwhile.
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ttf_patrickosmith
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 16, 2016, 08:00PMI don't think that sports analogies hold any water here.
In the "classical" musical world there are three very very limiting factors:
1. You are allowed to do ONLY one thing. ONLY that which is printed on a page.
2. The page might have been printed 200 years ago. So, you've had your entire life to do ONLY that one thing, which has been set in stone for 200 years. ( Brahms or Berlioz etc. etc.)
3. You may have already done that ONE THING hundreds of times.( Beethoven 5)
In sport you've got an infinite amount of choice, all the while trying to avoid trained killers who are looking to injure you seriously-- or at the very least make you look like a complete idiot.
I agree with you for most sports. But for every item you've listed, and probably any additional items you might add, I could point out the similarity between playing a brass instrument and playing golf.
In the "classical" musical world there are three very very limiting factors:
1. You are allowed to do ONLY one thing. ONLY that which is printed on a page.
2. The page might have been printed 200 years ago. So, you've had your entire life to do ONLY that one thing, which has been set in stone for 200 years. ( Brahms or Berlioz etc. etc.)
3. You may have already done that ONE THING hundreds of times.( Beethoven 5)
In sport you've got an infinite amount of choice, all the while trying to avoid trained killers who are looking to injure you seriously-- or at the very least make you look like a complete idiot.
I agree with you for most sports. But for every item you've listed, and probably any additional items you might add, I could point out the similarity between playing a brass instrument and playing golf.
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Yes. Now we are discussing " The Inner Game of Tennis."
But even if you compare golf to trombone in the orchestral world:
1. The ball can be placed in literally an infinite number of positions before it is in the hole.
2. You have to allow for climate conditions in golf.
3. You do not have access to "recordings" of hundreds of golfers hitting the ball from exactly where yours lies.
(Sorry, I have brothers who golf. I don't have to waste my own time doing it. hah ah ha hahah)
*****
To continue the golf analogy-
If you want to replicate the sound of Friedman playing Brahms you buy a Friedman trombone. Anyone attempting to play golf with a professional's clubs will get nothing like the pro's results.
Sorry, but it is true.
As for the classical trombone world allowing anything less than a 100% replication of the tried and true, and currently flavor of the month sound and approach?
Show up in an orchestra to play Mahler with a King 3B, or smaller, horn.
Suggest here on TTF that you are looking to play a Conn 88H with a Bach 6 1/2AL and you'll get flamed.
(The music director won't care. The audience won't know-- but the 17,000 peanuts in the TTF peanut gallery will eat you alive...before you've played one note!)
But even if you compare golf to trombone in the orchestral world:
1. The ball can be placed in literally an infinite number of positions before it is in the hole.
2. You have to allow for climate conditions in golf.
3. You do not have access to "recordings" of hundreds of golfers hitting the ball from exactly where yours lies.
(Sorry, I have brothers who golf. I don't have to waste my own time doing it. hah ah ha hahah)
*****
To continue the golf analogy-
If you want to replicate the sound of Friedman playing Brahms you buy a Friedman trombone. Anyone attempting to play golf with a professional's clubs will get nothing like the pro's results.
Sorry, but it is true.
As for the classical trombone world allowing anything less than a 100% replication of the tried and true, and currently flavor of the month sound and approach?
Show up in an orchestra to play Mahler with a King 3B, or smaller, horn.
Suggest here on TTF that you are looking to play a Conn 88H with a Bach 6 1/2AL and you'll get flamed.
(The music director won't care. The audience won't know-- but the 17,000 peanuts in the TTF peanut gallery will eat you alive...before you've played one note!)
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ttf_patrickosmith
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMYes. Now we are discussing " The Inner Game of Tennis."
Sorry to go off topic ... but just one more response!
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMBut even if you compare golf to trombone in the orchestral world:
1. The ball can be placed in literally an infinite number of positions before it is in the hole.
2. You have to allow for climate conditions in golf.
3. You do not have access to "recordings" of hundreds of golfers hitting the ball from exactly where yours lies.
(Sorry, I have brothers who golf. I don't have to waste my own time doing it. hah ah ha hahah)
1. Just like you place your embouchure on your lips exactly where/how you want (in relation to your body) before you play any note, you will position the ball exactly where/how (in relation to your body) before you shoot any shot. The "literally infinite" positions of the ball relative to any target is analogous to the literally infinite ways a musician can shape any note or phrase.
2. The people around you might play a bit out of tune or out of time with respect to you.
3. Every good golfer will visualize his shot before taking it, just like every great brass player will hear what he intends to play before he plays it.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMIf you want to replicate the sound of Friedman playing Brahms you buy a Friedman trombone.
Disagree with this completely. Herseth sounded like Herseth on any trumpet he played.
You don't imitate another player's sound by matching their equipment. You do it by matching their air and articulation.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMAnyone attempting to play golf with a professional's clubs will get nothing like the pro's results.
Every great brass player will select the instrument best suited to them. Just like every great golfer will select the best clubs suited to them.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMAs for the classical trombone world allowing anything less than a 100% replication of the tried and true, and currently flavor of the month sound and approach?
Show up in an orchestra to play Mahler with a King 3B, or smaller, horn.
You won't win the master's golf tournament playing on ill-suited golf clubs, just like you won't win an orchestral audition playing on a King 3B. Nevertheless, you could be a great enough player to win on crappy equipment. If Ben Hogan were alive today playing his old clubs, he might indeed win some competitions against today's pros on their modern equipment. If Crisafulli were alive today playing his old 0.547 bore Holton on his smallish Schilke mouthpiece, he would still blow away most present day professional tenor trombonists.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMSuggest here on TTF that you are looking to play a Conn 88H with a Bach 6 1/2AL and you'll get flamed.
I actually like that pairing (Bach 6 1/2AL paired with a Conn 88H) for a principal trombonist. I don't like the sound of present day tenor trombonists playing large equipment. They sound too much like a bass trombonist ("Not that there's anything wrong with that" -- Jerry Seinfeld).
Sorry to go off topic ... but just one more response!
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMBut even if you compare golf to trombone in the orchestral world:
1. The ball can be placed in literally an infinite number of positions before it is in the hole.
2. You have to allow for climate conditions in golf.
3. You do not have access to "recordings" of hundreds of golfers hitting the ball from exactly where yours lies.
(Sorry, I have brothers who golf. I don't have to waste my own time doing it. hah ah ha hahah)
1. Just like you place your embouchure on your lips exactly where/how you want (in relation to your body) before you play any note, you will position the ball exactly where/how (in relation to your body) before you shoot any shot. The "literally infinite" positions of the ball relative to any target is analogous to the literally infinite ways a musician can shape any note or phrase.
2. The people around you might play a bit out of tune or out of time with respect to you.
3. Every good golfer will visualize his shot before taking it, just like every great brass player will hear what he intends to play before he plays it.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMIf you want to replicate the sound of Friedman playing Brahms you buy a Friedman trombone.
Disagree with this completely. Herseth sounded like Herseth on any trumpet he played.
You don't imitate another player's sound by matching their equipment. You do it by matching their air and articulation.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMAnyone attempting to play golf with a professional's clubs will get nothing like the pro's results.
Every great brass player will select the instrument best suited to them. Just like every great golfer will select the best clubs suited to them.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMAs for the classical trombone world allowing anything less than a 100% replication of the tried and true, and currently flavor of the month sound and approach?
Show up in an orchestra to play Mahler with a King 3B, or smaller, horn.
You won't win the master's golf tournament playing on ill-suited golf clubs, just like you won't win an orchestral audition playing on a King 3B. Nevertheless, you could be a great enough player to win on crappy equipment. If Ben Hogan were alive today playing his old clubs, he might indeed win some competitions against today's pros on their modern equipment. If Crisafulli were alive today playing his old 0.547 bore Holton on his smallish Schilke mouthpiece, he would still blow away most present day professional tenor trombonists.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMSuggest here on TTF that you are looking to play a Conn 88H with a Bach 6 1/2AL and you'll get flamed.
I actually like that pairing (Bach 6 1/2AL paired with a Conn 88H) for a principal trombonist. I don't like the sound of present day tenor trombonists playing large equipment. They sound too much like a bass trombonist ("Not that there's anything wrong with that" -- Jerry Seinfeld).
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ttf_Dombat
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A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 17, 2016, 04:31AMYes. Now we are discussing " The Inner Game of Tennis."
But even if you compare golf to trombone in the orchestral world:
1. The ball can be placed in literally an infinite number of positions before it is in the hole.
2. You have to allow for climate conditions in golf.
3. You do not have access to "recordings" of hundreds of golfers hitting the ball from exactly where yours lies.
(Sorry, I have brothers who golf. I don't have to waste my own time doing it. hah ah ha hahah)
*****
To continue the golf analogy-
If you want to replicate the sound of Friedman playing Brahms you buy a Friedman trombone. Anyone attempting to play golf with a professional's clubs will get nothing like the pro's results.
Sorry, but it is true.
As for the classical trombone world allowing anything less than a 100% replication of the tried and true, and currently flavor of the month sound and approach?
Show up in an orchestra to play Mahler with a King 3B, or smaller, horn.
Suggest here on TTF that you are looking to play a Conn 88H with a Bach 6 1/2AL and you'll get flamed.
(The music director won't care. The audience won't know-- but the 17,000 peanuts in the TTF peanut gallery will eat you alive...before you've played one note!)
Exactly. Every performance is the same.
The principal trumpet never gets sick on the day of the performance and the casual who steps in can't play as softly, changing the whole balance of the section.
The air conditioning never plays up meaning every entry has a different pitch centre.
A conductor never decides to change their beat pattern in the heat of the moment.
A guest conductor never wants the orchestra to play earlier or later than the stick.
A conductor never decides to knock 5 minutes off a piece through tempo alone so they don't miss their train.
An audience member never has a medical emergency 2 bars before your biggest entry.
You never have your instrument damaged whilst playing a concert out of house and are forced to play on whatever the management can find within 30 minutes.
A conductor's vest never comes undone midway through an overture forcing the second violinist to get up and redress him.
A second concertmaster never decides to take the solos just a little faster than the first concertmaster prepared them.
A trumpet section never trips over a stand returning to the pit after a tacet.
A conductor never finds it exciting to
give a downbeat before the orchestra have sat back down.
A bug never goes through the orchestra, leaving the management to have to hire 20 casuals and hour before a show.
Sure... theoretically we are just playing the dots but all of the above have happened to me within the last two weeks alone. If you aren't on the ball you look like a fool.
But even if you compare golf to trombone in the orchestral world:
1. The ball can be placed in literally an infinite number of positions before it is in the hole.
2. You have to allow for climate conditions in golf.
3. You do not have access to "recordings" of hundreds of golfers hitting the ball from exactly where yours lies.
(Sorry, I have brothers who golf. I don't have to waste my own time doing it. hah ah ha hahah)
*****
To continue the golf analogy-
If you want to replicate the sound of Friedman playing Brahms you buy a Friedman trombone. Anyone attempting to play golf with a professional's clubs will get nothing like the pro's results.
Sorry, but it is true.
As for the classical trombone world allowing anything less than a 100% replication of the tried and true, and currently flavor of the month sound and approach?
Show up in an orchestra to play Mahler with a King 3B, or smaller, horn.
Suggest here on TTF that you are looking to play a Conn 88H with a Bach 6 1/2AL and you'll get flamed.
(The music director won't care. The audience won't know-- but the 17,000 peanuts in the TTF peanut gallery will eat you alive...before you've played one note!)
Exactly. Every performance is the same.
The principal trumpet never gets sick on the day of the performance and the casual who steps in can't play as softly, changing the whole balance of the section.
The air conditioning never plays up meaning every entry has a different pitch centre.
A conductor never decides to change their beat pattern in the heat of the moment.
A guest conductor never wants the orchestra to play earlier or later than the stick.
A conductor never decides to knock 5 minutes off a piece through tempo alone so they don't miss their train.
An audience member never has a medical emergency 2 bars before your biggest entry.
You never have your instrument damaged whilst playing a concert out of house and are forced to play on whatever the management can find within 30 minutes.
A conductor's vest never comes undone midway through an overture forcing the second violinist to get up and redress him.
A second concertmaster never decides to take the solos just a little faster than the first concertmaster prepared them.
A trumpet section never trips over a stand returning to the pit after a tacet.
A conductor never finds it exciting to
give a downbeat before the orchestra have sat back down.
A bug never goes through the orchestra, leaving the management to have to hire 20 casuals and hour before a show.
Sure... theoretically we are just playing the dots but all of the above have happened to me within the last two weeks alone. If you aren't on the ball you look like a fool.
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ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:11PM---snip---The stuff you said about endurance issued getting you fired from a BQ or salsa band also means you wouldn't have been hired in the first place so that's moot.
No, it is not moot. I have.,..over the course of a long career...been hired for many jobs for which I was not really qualified. Sometimes I was almost qualified and the people who hired me:
A-Knew I was serious about the music
and
B-Thought maybe I'd be able to learn how to be qualified fairly quickly.
Others? Not so much. Bet on it. I almost never turn down a gig because i don't know whether I'm good enough to play it because I haved fooled myself so often, but when I am fairly sure I'm not qualified? Like say a bass trombone, principal trombone or tuba gig in a fine orchestra or recreating a bunch of Rosolino solos? (A style that I am quite certain I will never master w/out changing everything about the way I play the horn.) I just say no and recommend someone.
QuoteYou can't be stressed over a hypothetical job you aren't good enough to get hired for. But you don't have that issue since you practice and have a reputation to uphold.
Of course you can!!! people call me all the time to do roots salsa gigs where I know they expect me to sound like Willie Colon. I don't want to sound like Willie Colon...it messes up my chops and I don't do it very well anyway...so I turn them down. If they offered me a great deal of money and I had a month to learn how to blast in that matter i might give it a try, but it would have to be a lot of money and that's not going to happen anyway. There are many people who play that way and play it very well. Why would they call me?
QuoteAll this stuff about stress came about because someone had said that despite the generally short hours, the extreme stress over notes and playing should mean you get paid more than 78-150k. I don't think that argument holds water.
I dunno about that, either. A brass player who is the equivalent of say a great surgeon or lawyer has I am sure spent equivalent numbers of hours learning how to play like hat. Why not be paid equivalent amounts?
S.
No, it is not moot. I have.,..over the course of a long career...been hired for many jobs for which I was not really qualified. Sometimes I was almost qualified and the people who hired me:
A-Knew I was serious about the music
and
B-Thought maybe I'd be able to learn how to be qualified fairly quickly.
Others? Not so much. Bet on it. I almost never turn down a gig because i don't know whether I'm good enough to play it because I haved fooled myself so often, but when I am fairly sure I'm not qualified? Like say a bass trombone, principal trombone or tuba gig in a fine orchestra or recreating a bunch of Rosolino solos? (A style that I am quite certain I will never master w/out changing everything about the way I play the horn.) I just say no and recommend someone.
QuoteYou can't be stressed over a hypothetical job you aren't good enough to get hired for. But you don't have that issue since you practice and have a reputation to uphold.
Of course you can!!! people call me all the time to do roots salsa gigs where I know they expect me to sound like Willie Colon. I don't want to sound like Willie Colon...it messes up my chops and I don't do it very well anyway...so I turn them down. If they offered me a great deal of money and I had a month to learn how to blast in that matter i might give it a try, but it would have to be a lot of money and that's not going to happen anyway. There are many people who play that way and play it very well. Why would they call me?
QuoteAll this stuff about stress came about because someone had said that despite the generally short hours, the extreme stress over notes and playing should mean you get paid more than 78-150k. I don't think that argument holds water.
I dunno about that, either. A brass player who is the equivalent of say a great surgeon or lawyer has I am sure spent equivalent numbers of hours learning how to play like hat. Why not be paid equivalent amounts?
S.
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ttf_BMadsen
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Harrison, maybe your experience is different than ours, but I'm with Sam
more about it below
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:11PMThe stuff you said about endurance issued getting you fired from a BQ or salsa band also means you wouldn't have been hired in the first place so that's moot.
Quote from: sabutin on May 17, 2016, 09:37AMNo, it is not moot. I have.,..over the course of a long career...been hired for many jobs for which I was not really qualified. Sometimes I was almost qualified and the people who hired me:
A-Knew I was serious about the music
and
B-Thought maybe I'd be able to learn how to be qualified fairly quickly.
Others? Not so much. Bet on it. I almost never turn down a gig because i don't know whether I'm good enough to play it because I haved fooled myself so often, but when I am fairly sure I'm not qualified? Like say a bass trombone, principal trombone or tuba gig in a fine orchestra or recreating a bunch of Rosolino solos? (A style that I am quite certain I will never master w/out changing everything about the way I play the horn.) I just say no and recommend someone.
I'm with Sam here. Part of "making it" here (and, anywhere when you aren't in a full time position) is building an extremely wide network of people willing to call you for work. That means your name gets passed on to people. If one of those players you've networked with recommends you because they can't do a gig, you could easily be offered something that you aren't qualified for. And, the vast majority of the work I'm involved in has no rehearsals - just show up and read the music. Meaning, you get found out on the gig if you up to snuff. If you are, it means future work. If not, you are out with that band, and all of those musicians are now aware you're not up to snuff, at least in that setting, harming your rep and limiting future work.
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:11PMYou can't be stressed over a hypothetical job you aren't good enough to get hired for. But you don't have that issue since you practice and have a reputation to uphold.
Quote from: sabutin on May 17, 2016, 09:37AMOf course you can!!! people call me all the time to do roots salsa gigs where I know they expect me to sound like Willie Colon. I don't want to sound like Willie Colon...it messes up my chops and I don't do it very well anyway...so I turn them down. If they offered me a great deal of money and I had a month to learn how to blast in that matter i might give it a try, but it would have to be a lot of money and that's not going to happen anyway. There are many people who play that way and play it very well. Why would they call me?
I've found you have to balance the need to make enough to pay the bills, with the need to protect your rep. And, with your ability to feel enough up to snuff to make it possible to take the gig. Depending on how last minute it is, I'll take or not take a gig. If I am not sure I can handle it, I'll even mention to people calling me that I'm not sure it's in my wheelhouse and offer some names. Occasionally, they've still asked me to play in spite of that, and then been given future work because of my honesty, and willingness to learn. It's a tight wire act that can really threaten the blood pressure from time to time!
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:11PMAll this stuff about stress came about because someone had said that despite the generally short hours, the extreme stress over notes and playing should mean you get paid more than 78-150k. I don't think that argument holds water.
Quote from: sabutin on May 17, 2016, 09:37AMI dunno about that, either. A brass player who is the equivalent of say a great surgeon or lawyer has I am sure spent equivalent numbers of hours learning how to play like hat. Why not be paid equivalent amounts?
S.
I don't disagree with Sam here, but one thing that we all tend to forget is, while we are in an art form, we are also entertainment. So, while I agree that the top of the top should get paid more (lots more), it's also a matter of economics. If the art form/form of entertainment we work in is not as in demand, there is going to be less money available to pay. Pay follows value. When our culture is convinced of the value of these orchestras, more money will flow into them, and there will be more money to pay the players.
A lot of orchestras aren't doing much to connect with the community at large, which then means that the community they want support from feels disconnected from the orchestra, and unwilling to support it. The NY Phil sees attendance at their free concerts in the park at around 60-70k at the Central Park concerts - which sounds like a lot until you realize that's only 0.8% of the population of New York. They do multiple performances all over the 5 boros, but I went to the brass section concert in the Bronx one year. There were about 500 people there - 1/2 of the auditorium was empty. When talking to some of the concert goers, they had attended all of the other concerts. So, you have repeat goers that drops the number. Even if they reach 300k unique people over the entire summer series (a number I doubt they hit), that's only 3.6% of the population - a tiny percentage.
Maybe I'm wrong, but 3.6% seems like a really low number to reach in a community for a free resource. Which would then explain why orchestras are hurting, and pay isn't as high as maybe it should be ..
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:11PMThe stuff you said about endurance issued getting you fired from a BQ or salsa band also means you wouldn't have been hired in the first place so that's moot.
Quote from: sabutin on May 17, 2016, 09:37AMNo, it is not moot. I have.,..over the course of a long career...been hired for many jobs for which I was not really qualified. Sometimes I was almost qualified and the people who hired me:
A-Knew I was serious about the music
and
B-Thought maybe I'd be able to learn how to be qualified fairly quickly.
Others? Not so much. Bet on it. I almost never turn down a gig because i don't know whether I'm good enough to play it because I haved fooled myself so often, but when I am fairly sure I'm not qualified? Like say a bass trombone, principal trombone or tuba gig in a fine orchestra or recreating a bunch of Rosolino solos? (A style that I am quite certain I will never master w/out changing everything about the way I play the horn.) I just say no and recommend someone.
I'm with Sam here. Part of "making it" here (and, anywhere when you aren't in a full time position) is building an extremely wide network of people willing to call you for work. That means your name gets passed on to people. If one of those players you've networked with recommends you because they can't do a gig, you could easily be offered something that you aren't qualified for. And, the vast majority of the work I'm involved in has no rehearsals - just show up and read the music. Meaning, you get found out on the gig if you up to snuff. If you are, it means future work. If not, you are out with that band, and all of those musicians are now aware you're not up to snuff, at least in that setting, harming your rep and limiting future work.
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:11PMYou can't be stressed over a hypothetical job you aren't good enough to get hired for. But you don't have that issue since you practice and have a reputation to uphold.
Quote from: sabutin on May 17, 2016, 09:37AMOf course you can!!! people call me all the time to do roots salsa gigs where I know they expect me to sound like Willie Colon. I don't want to sound like Willie Colon...it messes up my chops and I don't do it very well anyway...so I turn them down. If they offered me a great deal of money and I had a month to learn how to blast in that matter i might give it a try, but it would have to be a lot of money and that's not going to happen anyway. There are many people who play that way and play it very well. Why would they call me?
I've found you have to balance the need to make enough to pay the bills, with the need to protect your rep. And, with your ability to feel enough up to snuff to make it possible to take the gig. Depending on how last minute it is, I'll take or not take a gig. If I am not sure I can handle it, I'll even mention to people calling me that I'm not sure it's in my wheelhouse and offer some names. Occasionally, they've still asked me to play in spite of that, and then been given future work because of my honesty, and willingness to learn. It's a tight wire act that can really threaten the blood pressure from time to time!
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:11PMAll this stuff about stress came about because someone had said that despite the generally short hours, the extreme stress over notes and playing should mean you get paid more than 78-150k. I don't think that argument holds water.
Quote from: sabutin on May 17, 2016, 09:37AMI dunno about that, either. A brass player who is the equivalent of say a great surgeon or lawyer has I am sure spent equivalent numbers of hours learning how to play like hat. Why not be paid equivalent amounts?
S.
I don't disagree with Sam here, but one thing that we all tend to forget is, while we are in an art form, we are also entertainment. So, while I agree that the top of the top should get paid more (lots more), it's also a matter of economics. If the art form/form of entertainment we work in is not as in demand, there is going to be less money available to pay. Pay follows value. When our culture is convinced of the value of these orchestras, more money will flow into them, and there will be more money to pay the players.
A lot of orchestras aren't doing much to connect with the community at large, which then means that the community they want support from feels disconnected from the orchestra, and unwilling to support it. The NY Phil sees attendance at their free concerts in the park at around 60-70k at the Central Park concerts - which sounds like a lot until you realize that's only 0.8% of the population of New York. They do multiple performances all over the 5 boros, but I went to the brass section concert in the Bronx one year. There were about 500 people there - 1/2 of the auditorium was empty. When talking to some of the concert goers, they had attended all of the other concerts. So, you have repeat goers that drops the number. Even if they reach 300k unique people over the entire summer series (a number I doubt they hit), that's only 3.6% of the population - a tiny percentage.
Maybe I'm wrong, but 3.6% seems like a really low number to reach in a community for a free resource. Which would then explain why orchestras are hurting, and pay isn't as high as maybe it should be ..
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ttf_robcat2075
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: BMadsen on May 17, 2016, 10:53AMEven if they reach 300k unique people over the entire summer series (a number I doubt they hit), that's only 3.6% of the population - a tiny percentage.
Maybe I'm wrong, but 3.6% seems like a really low number to reach in a community for a free resource.
I'm gonna say that for one organization, not the whole classical musical genre but one specific ensemble, 3% amongst all the other possibilities of things to attend would not be bad.
If there were only two things to do in the city then getting 3% share would be poor but there are thousands of things to attend in addition to staying home and watching the internet for free.
Maybe I'm wrong, but 3.6% seems like a really low number to reach in a community for a free resource.
I'm gonna say that for one organization, not the whole classical musical genre but one specific ensemble, 3% amongst all the other possibilities of things to attend would not be bad.
If there were only two things to do in the city then getting 3% share would be poor but there are thousands of things to attend in addition to staying home and watching the internet for free.
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ttf_BillO
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
On stress, that is definitely a part of any high paying and/or performance related career. For sure. I know I made the best progress in my career when I was willing and able to sustain a lot of stress. In the last few years of my working life, I cannot remember a single week where I put in less than 60 hours, while flying all over the damn globe. Why do you think I called it quits a 54?
I used to get leery of anyone working for me that did not put in the effort to stress themselves. I didn't expect them to push themselves like me, but the last thing I needed was people on my staff heading home at 5pm with an air of contentment while leaving work on the table that was supposed to be completed by EOD to keep some multi-$Million project on time. They sure stressed a bit more when they did not make the cut come the semi-annual review. The ones that did push themselves like I did usually did a lot better and were the ones that got the promotions and the big paychecks.
You want little stress? Go work in an assembly plant under a union. Come in a 7:30am, Put bolt 'A' in hole 'B' attach nut 'C' and tighten to 10ft-lbs, repeat until 4pm while listening to tunes on your iPod, go home.
The players on the NYP, or any other top echelon musician, are not supposed to flub during a performance - ever. If you feel that keeping that level of skill ready and delivering it at every performance with musicality, feeling and sensitivity is too stressful, well, it's supposed to be. Get over it. You can always make a decent wage at the nearest Ford plant and be completely stress free, at least work wise.
I used to get leery of anyone working for me that did not put in the effort to stress themselves. I didn't expect them to push themselves like me, but the last thing I needed was people on my staff heading home at 5pm with an air of contentment while leaving work on the table that was supposed to be completed by EOD to keep some multi-$Million project on time. They sure stressed a bit more when they did not make the cut come the semi-annual review. The ones that did push themselves like I did usually did a lot better and were the ones that got the promotions and the big paychecks.
You want little stress? Go work in an assembly plant under a union. Come in a 7:30am, Put bolt 'A' in hole 'B' attach nut 'C' and tighten to 10ft-lbs, repeat until 4pm while listening to tunes on your iPod, go home.
The players on the NYP, or any other top echelon musician, are not supposed to flub during a performance - ever. If you feel that keeping that level of skill ready and delivering it at every performance with musicality, feeling and sensitivity is too stressful, well, it's supposed to be. Get over it. You can always make a decent wage at the nearest Ford plant and be completely stress free, at least work wise.
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ttf_Eastcheap
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: robcat2075 on May 16, 2016, 07:50PMThey talk in terms of acceptable rates of failure vs. success. And when they make serious mistakes it's mostly hushed up in out-of-court settlements.
Honestly, I believe the education and training regime for surgeons, plus the working conditions, heavily favors sociopaths.
Quote from: BillO on May 17, 2016, 02:16PMOn stress, that is definitely a part of any high paying and/or performance related career.
That's the obvious stuff. You don't get to that point without having some ability to cope with that.
The stressors that really drive people round the bend are usually superficially insignificant but incessant. Office Space got it right on the money: Nobody could cope with both Lumbergh and a balky printer.
I don't know what's going on in US orchestras. I think you have to be there.
One thing I would be anxious about is the future. The big orchestras survive largely on the charity of a dwindling number of donors and an increasingly hostile public sector, in a culture that's hostile to what they do. I don't discuss the kind of music I like in "mixed" company because it puts people off. Some even find it offensive.
No amount of tenure will save you if the orchestra collapses and everyone else is using canned music. I'd be working under the assumption that my savings would have to keep me going for decades.
QuoteWhy do you think I called it quits a 54?
Because you could?
QuoteYou can always make a decent wage at the nearest Ford plant and be completely stress free, at least work wise.
Yeah, good luck with that. More likely, you'll end up in a right-to-work state doing crap they'd give to robots if people weren't cheaper.
Honestly, I believe the education and training regime for surgeons, plus the working conditions, heavily favors sociopaths.
Quote from: BillO on May 17, 2016, 02:16PMOn stress, that is definitely a part of any high paying and/or performance related career.
That's the obvious stuff. You don't get to that point without having some ability to cope with that.
The stressors that really drive people round the bend are usually superficially insignificant but incessant. Office Space got it right on the money: Nobody could cope with both Lumbergh and a balky printer.
I don't know what's going on in US orchestras. I think you have to be there.
One thing I would be anxious about is the future. The big orchestras survive largely on the charity of a dwindling number of donors and an increasingly hostile public sector, in a culture that's hostile to what they do. I don't discuss the kind of music I like in "mixed" company because it puts people off. Some even find it offensive.
No amount of tenure will save you if the orchestra collapses and everyone else is using canned music. I'd be working under the assumption that my savings would have to keep me going for decades.
QuoteWhy do you think I called it quits a 54?
Because you could?
QuoteYou can always make a decent wage at the nearest Ford plant and be completely stress free, at least work wise.
Yeah, good luck with that. More likely, you'll end up in a right-to-work state doing crap they'd give to robots if people weren't cheaper.
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ttf_robcat2075
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: Eastcheap on May 17, 2016, 08:22PMQuoteYou can always make a decent wage at the nearest Ford plant and be completely stress free, at least work wise.
Yeah, good luck with that. More likely, you'll end up in a right-to-work state doing crap they'd give to robots if people weren't cheaper.
+1
Musicians tend to have rather dimly-informed notions of how the rest of the world scratches out a living.
Yeah, good luck with that. More likely, you'll end up in a right-to-work state doing crap they'd give to robots if people weren't cheaper.
+1
Musicians tend to have rather dimly-informed notions of how the rest of the world scratches out a living.
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: robcat2075 on May 17, 2016, 09:01PMYeah, good luck with that. More likely, you'll end up in a right-to-work state doing crap they'd give to robots if people weren't cheaper.
+1
Musicians tend to have rather dimly-informed notions of how the rest of the world scratches out a living.
Based on this thread, the reverse is also true. It blows my mind that people with very little knowledge of someone else's job has the nerve to say they have it easy. Of course this is the Internet.
+1
Musicians tend to have rather dimly-informed notions of how the rest of the world scratches out a living.
Based on this thread, the reverse is also true. It blows my mind that people with very little knowledge of someone else's job has the nerve to say they have it easy. Of course this is the Internet.
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ttf_BillO
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on May 17, 2016, 10:32PMBased on this thread, the reverse is also true. It blows my mind that people with very little knowledge of someone else's job has the nerve to say they have it easy. Of course this is the Internet.
My question to you would be, how do you know they have very little knowledge of someone else's job? Perhaps it's that you have very little knowledge of their experience. Maybe? Of course, this is the internet.
In any case, who said anything about other folks jobs being easy? I just mentioned about some jobs having less job related stress.
Quote from: Eastcheap on May 17, 2016, 08:22PMBecause you could?
Yes, I could. I didn't make a stupid decision. However, that was not the reason I made the decision.
Quote from: Eastcheap on May 17, 2016, 08:22PMYeah, good luck with that. More likely, you'll end up in a right-to-work state doing crap they'd give to robots if people weren't cheaper.
I'm sorry to hear that's the case in the US, but I did say under a union. Here in Canada, auto workers start at $45K and will make $75K a year with just a few years experience. That is a pretty good wage scale. I realize there is a two tiered system in the US, but those hired before 2007 can make as much as $78K - taking into account exchange and average cost of living, that works out to about $115K in Canadian funds. Not too shabby. Even at the bottom end in the US ($34K) it is equivalent to the Canadian lower end.
One would think the whole "right to work" thing would have been a good thing, but it seems it has not turned out to be the case. Where's Jimmy Hoffa when you need him?
My question to you would be, how do you know they have very little knowledge of someone else's job? Perhaps it's that you have very little knowledge of their experience. Maybe? Of course, this is the internet.
In any case, who said anything about other folks jobs being easy? I just mentioned about some jobs having less job related stress.
Quote from: Eastcheap on May 17, 2016, 08:22PMBecause you could?
Yes, I could. I didn't make a stupid decision. However, that was not the reason I made the decision.
Quote from: Eastcheap on May 17, 2016, 08:22PMYeah, good luck with that. More likely, you'll end up in a right-to-work state doing crap they'd give to robots if people weren't cheaper.
I'm sorry to hear that's the case in the US, but I did say under a union. Here in Canada, auto workers start at $45K and will make $75K a year with just a few years experience. That is a pretty good wage scale. I realize there is a two tiered system in the US, but those hired before 2007 can make as much as $78K - taking into account exchange and average cost of living, that works out to about $115K in Canadian funds. Not too shabby. Even at the bottom end in the US ($34K) it is equivalent to the Canadian lower end.
One would think the whole "right to work" thing would have been a good thing, but it seems it has not turned out to be the case. Where's Jimmy Hoffa when you need him?
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: BillO on May 18, 2016, 06:06AMMy question to you would be, how do you know they have very little knowledge of someone else's job? Perhaps it's that you have very little knowledge of their experience. Maybe? Of course, this is the internet.
In any case, who said anything about other folks jobs being easy? I just mentioned about some jobs having less job related stress.
Yes, I could. I didn't make a stupid decision. However, that was not the reason I made the decision.
I'm sorry to hear that's the case in the US, but I did say under a union. Here in Canada, auto workers start at $45K and will make $75K a year with just a few years experience. That is a pretty good wage scale. I realize there is a two tiered system in the US, but those hired before 2007 can make as much as $78K - taking into account exchange and average cost of living, that works out to about $115K in Canadian funds. Not too shabby. Even at the bottom end in the US ($34K) it is equivalent to the Canadian lower end.
One would think the whole "right to work" thing would have been a good thing, but it seems it has not turned out to be the case. Where's Jimmy Hoffa when you need him?
First clue, they take offense to a post that does not reference them by name.
In any case, who said anything about other folks jobs being easy? I just mentioned about some jobs having less job related stress.
Yes, I could. I didn't make a stupid decision. However, that was not the reason I made the decision.
I'm sorry to hear that's the case in the US, but I did say under a union. Here in Canada, auto workers start at $45K and will make $75K a year with just a few years experience. That is a pretty good wage scale. I realize there is a two tiered system in the US, but those hired before 2007 can make as much as $78K - taking into account exchange and average cost of living, that works out to about $115K in Canadian funds. Not too shabby. Even at the bottom end in the US ($34K) it is equivalent to the Canadian lower end.
One would think the whole "right to work" thing would have been a good thing, but it seems it has not turned out to be the case. Where's Jimmy Hoffa when you need him?
First clue, they take offense to a post that does not reference them by name.
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ttf_BillO
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer date=1463581431First clue, they take offense to a post that does not reference them by name.
Or maybe they were not offended at all and were just mentioning that your post was just as ridiculous an example of inappropriate assumption as you were pointing out.
And now it's being done again. My advice? One should try not to re-think for others, nor tell them how they feel, nor what they might or might not know. It makes one sound like a bit of a dork when they assume they know the content of another's mind.
Or maybe they were not offended at all and were just mentioning that your post was just as ridiculous an example of inappropriate assumption as you were pointing out.
And now it's being done again. My advice? One should try not to re-think for others, nor tell them how they feel, nor what they might or might not know. It makes one sound like a bit of a dork when they assume they know the content of another's mind.
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
Quote from: BillO on May 18, 2016, 07:54AMOr maybe they were not offended at all and were just mentioning that your post was just as ridiculous an example of inappropriate assumption as you were pointing out.
And now it's being done again. My advice? One should try not to re-think for others, nor tell them how they feel, nor what they might or might not know. It makes one sound like a bit of a dork when they assume they know the content of another's mind.
Clue number 2. Advice from some is golden, from others, not so much.
And now it's being done again. My advice? One should try not to re-think for others, nor tell them how they feel, nor what they might or might not know. It makes one sound like a bit of a dork when they assume they know the content of another's mind.
Clue number 2. Advice from some is golden, from others, not so much.