Adding length to a horn

[Elow]

I have a bach 50 with an edwards slide. It’s so incredibly sharp. I have my tuning slide out to where it is almost falling out and i’m still slightly sharp, and my tuning slide falls out sometimes, its very annoying. I was thinking of longer tuning slide legs, and swapping them out, but i’m not really sure where to get those. I was thinking shires might be able to fabricate some for me but probably pricey. Any ideas?

[Burgerbob]

Those receivers were cut- might be worth buying stock length Bach tuning slide receivers, that would be a pretty easy fix.

[Elow]

That’s good to know, thanks

[harrisonreed]

That sounds like you might just need a new horn

[Burgerbob]

That sounds like you might just need a new horn

That would be a bit drastic!

[Elow]

That sounds like you might just need a new horn

Send me one!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Those receivers were cut- might be worth buying stock length Bach tuning slide receivers, that would be a pretty easy fix.

How do you know the receivers were cut? Did you sell Elow the horn?

[Burgerbob]

Those receivers were cut- might be worth buying stock length Bach tuning slide receivers, that would be a pretty easy fix.

How do you know the receivers were cut? Did you sell Elow the horn?

Yup, project of mine from a couple years ago. 50B3OG with Shires rotors. Really cool horn, I miss it.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

OK....makes sense. I figured it was either a horn that you formerly owned or you had the unique ability of Trombone Sensory Perception. If you had TSP, I want to enroll in the same TSP weekend training course that you attended!

[harrisonreed]

That sounds like you might just need a new horn

That would be a bit drastic!

I know Elow likes projects. What was the reason behind cutting it so short? Or is this another instance of "throw the springs back in and it's fixed" syndrome?

[Burgerbob]

That would be a bit drastic!

I know Elow likes projects. What was the reason behind cutting it so short? Or is this another instance of "throw the springs back in and it's fixed" syndrome?

Bachs are long, so many Bach basses are cut at the tuning slide to compensate. Elow doesn't need that on his current setup, so may as well just add that length back again with stock parts. Ez pz.

[Elow]

I naturally play sharp i think, on my stock edwards i still pull out a good 2 inches

[timothy42b]

So dumb question, but you cut the receiver?

Why not cut the slide? Then "snapback" is as simple as putting your spare slide on.

[BGuttman]

On the Bach 50 both legs of the tuning slide go into the rest of the horn (i.e. not reversed). Shortening the legs of the slide won't sharpen the horn. If you shorten the receiver part you can sharpen the horn easily, and may need to trim the legs if they become too long to allow the slide to go all the way in.

The actual crook has a curve that is too close to the brace to allow it to be shortened.

[harrisonreed]

I naturally play sharp i think, on my stock edwards i still pull out a good 2 inches

That's textbook "put the bumper springs back in and the sharpness is magically solved" syndrome. You probably don't naturally play sharp at all.

[Matt K]

In addition to that, if the horn did have a shortened tuning slide *and* you have an Edwards slide it's quite a bit shorter overall than a stock Bach 50. The slides on Bachs are longer than Edwards so if switching out the tuning slide receiver parts doesn't totally solve the issue, a longer slide might help but that's obviously a lot more expensive. Edwards & Shires both sell Bach length slides and, of course, a Bach 50 slide will be longer too.

[elmsandr]

So dumb question, but you cut the receiver?

Why not cut the slide? Then "snapback" is as simple as putting your spare slide on.

Depending on the age of the Bach, the tuning slide legs used to be longer and generally needed to be shorter for *most* players on modern, larger mouthpieces. I wouldn't say the length of the tuning slide is "designed" into the horn as much is it "drafted", unless the optimal length for horns to play at 440Hz and around there is magically exactly on 1/2" marks... I think they only adjusted when complaints got so loud they couldn't ignore them anymore.

I have cut the tuning slide legs on most of my Bachs, but they are mostly vintage horns with an extra 1/2" on each there. I cut them to the current spec part lengths, but some other folks have gone more extreme, I'll let them speak to their own choices as that wouldn't work for me. I have some parts now in my toolbox that came off some former pros horns that are REALLY short. I know some orchestras play quite sharp, but these seem crazy to me; but you can buy recordings that had that valve section on it and it is nicely in tune, so I guess it worked.

Cheers,
Andy

[Elow]

]

That's textbook "put the bumper springs back in and the sharpness is magically solved" syndrome. You probably don't naturally play sharp at all.

I’m sharp on my euphonium as well

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I naturally play sharp i think, on my stock edwards i still pull out a good 2 inches

That's textbook "put the bumper springs back in and the sharpness is magically solved" syndrome. You probably don't naturally play sharp at all.

What bumper springs? Niether Bach or Edwards have bumper springs. Besides, most bumper springs are only about 5/8 inch long and compress down to about 1/4 inch with the lightest of pressure. See below. If Elow wants to get the tuning slide to pull out only 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch, the bumper spring only solves 1/6 or 1/5 of his problem.

Elow....if you tend to play sharp, your equipment is aggravating the problem. If you want your tuning slide to be pulled out a "normal" amount, you probably need to address BOTH of the things that are causing the problem:

1. Get Bach parts for both the inner and the outer tuning slide legs, install them and get the back end of the horn to the original specs. Warning: for some reason the Bach 50 tuning slides inners and outers never quite fit together correctly when they arrive. I always need to lap the legs a little to make them work properly.

2. Find a Bach handslide (which is longer) that you like and use that. If you don't like Bach slides, modify one. I know some players who have Bach slides that have a Conn brace on the outer slide.....they like the feel of the thinner brace. There are many players who have replaced the crook on a brass Bach slide with a nickel crook to make it feel and respond more like an Edwards or Shires.

https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... w&id=10437

[harrisonreed]

That's textbook "put the bumper springs back in and the sharpness is magically solved" syndrome. You probably don't naturally play sharp at all.

What bumper springs? Niether Bach or Edwards have bumper springs.

Sorry, I know. It's a bad figure of speech I invented. My point is that I'm convinced that people who have their tuning slides pulled out 2" don't actually play sharp, their embouchures are just fine (physiologically) and their only problem is that they play 2" short on the handslide. All the notes are there, and still would be there even if they pushed the tuning slide in 1.5-2", they just play short on the slide for whatever reason, good or bad.

That is interesting, the photo you have of the bumper spring! Thank you for that. Interestingly the few times I've played a horn that actually has them, they've had more than an inch of play, and the spring was about as long as the bumper barrels was. Maybe they had been decompressed on purpose?

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Most of the bumper springs I have seen have been 1 inch or shorter, but there are some longer ones out there. The springs are held in the cork barrel by the smallest lip. However, some springs can shift around within the cork barrel. In other words, a players outer slide could make contact with a cork barrel spring as the slide comes in and then the entire spring could shift up a good distance inside the cork barrel before it starts to compress.

I have never been a fan of bumper springs for two reasons:

1. When you have a spring, where is ground zero? Is it when the slide touches the spring, slightly in from there, all the way in with the spring completely compressed? For pros, it is not much of a problem. From a teaching perspective, it can be very confusing for young trombonists. It is tricky enough to explain where 1st position is compared to ground zero, the spring complicates things.

2. Some of the horns that I had with springs had severe buzzes or rattles on selected pitches. It was the spring having a sympathetic vibration with the horn.

------------------------------
Now back to the original topic....

Elow, your situation is like a car enthusiast doing custom work on a car. The mechanic starts with a Chevrolet, replaces the engine with a Ford, replaces the chassis and body with Dodge parts and then says: "I don't understand why it doesn't drive like a Chevrolet!" You kept incorporating shorter and shorter parts.....it had to go sharp. Either get it back to the original length or clip off more tubing and make it a bass trombone in B natural! Of course, I am being lighthearted here.

[Grah]

I have been reading this topic with a great deal of interest because I have almost exactly the same problem as described by Elow in the very first post. However, I should explain that I am in my eighties and I have been getting sharper and sharper over the last ten years. Is it likely that ageing, such as a drooping face and a change in your lip muscles, could cause this? Should I look for a trombone modification solution, and what is your recommendation? My main trombone is a Vincent Bach Stradivarius Model 16, but I have the same problem with my other horn, which is a King. Or is it possible to get your lip back to what it used to be by some kind of non-surgical treatment of your jowls? Frankly, I am desperate for a reasonable solution!

[harrisonreed]

I have been reading this topic with a great deal of interest because I have almost exactly the same problem as described by Elow in the very first post. However, I should explain that I am in my eighties and I have been getting sharper and sharper over the last ten years. Is it likely that ageing, such as a drooping face and a change in your lip muscles, could cause this? Should I look for a trombone modification solution, and what is your recommendation? My main trombone is a Vincent Bach Stradivarius Model 16, but I have the same problem with my other horn, which is a King. Or is it possible to get your lip back to what it used to be by some kind of non-surgical treatment of your jowls? Frankly, I am desperate for a reasonable solution!

Grah, my 2¢ is only worth 1¥, but if you're going sharp in your 80s the first thing I'd think would be a factor is your air, similar to younger kids when they are starting. Kids don't have a lot of air to put through the horn at a young age, and for it to make a sound the resistance has to come from somewhere, so the kids create it at their face by pinching. That makes them go wicked sharp.

Someone in their 80s might be losing some of their air power, and compensating at their face in the exact same way. The difference is that you know exactly what you want for sound, and you can still get that sound at the expense of going a little sharp. You might be fooling yourself about the cause of the problem, because you have a lot of knowledge about your playing over your whole life. Hindsight is often 20/20, but it's really hard for any of us to know what is going on with ourselves at the present.

The muscles in the face might go a little loose at 80, but I'd be willing to bet you are still tightening them up more than you realize you are doing. I've noticed that the looser my chops are while playing, and the freer the air is, the flatter my pitch goes. This might only be me, but that's the opposite effect of what you are suspecting.

So, adding length in Elow's case is one thing, since his horn is already hosed. In your case it might not help the underlying problem. I could be totally wrong. Some ideas I would try, however:

1. See if your air is compromised. Can you try and use a lot more air on a short phrase, and keep your face more malleable than you ordinarily would? I'm thinking corners hugging but not tense just around your canines, bringing your upper and lower lips together and malleable in a vertical way.
2. Can you use the same amount of air as normal, keep your chops less tense than normal, as above, and use the arch of your tongue to change the speed and flow of the air? How does that affect things?
3. Can you try mouthpieces with both tighter backbores and throats, and wider backbores and throats? You might be surprised!

Again, just trying to offer ideas!

[timothy42b]

3. Can you try mouthpieces with both tighter backbores and throats, and wider backbores and throats? You might be surprised!

Again, just trying to offer ideas!

I'm thinking this is worth trying.

As we age there are some physical changes - nose gets longer, ears start showing - these are real changes.

What happens inside our oral cavity, as teeth shift, the palate adjusts, the throat cartilage ages? I have no idea, but if the oral cavity has an effect on pitch, then maybe the best place to affect it is as close as possible, in the mouthpiece.

[robcat2075]

Has anyone ever tried adding length to a trombone by adding a span between the slide and the bell section?

[Burgerbob]

Has anyone ever tried adding length to a trombone by adding a span between the slide and the bell section?

That would be possible, but seems like it would be past last resort territory.

[afugate]

Has anyone ever tried adding length to a trombone by adding a span between the slide and the bell section?

Wouldn't that shift the brace back? That would affect many things, including how one holds the horn and F attachment valve actuation. Or am I misunderstanding what you're suggesting?

--Andy in OKC

[robcat2075]

Has anyone ever tried adding length to a trombone by adding a span between the slide and the bell section?

Wouldn't that shift the brace back? That would affect many things, including how one holds the horn and F attachment valve actuation.

Yup, I presume that is all true and less than ideal.

[Wade]

How about adding length to your instrument by asking someone like MK Drawing to make you a slide crook with longer legs. Pictured are two of my stock slides. You can see the manufacture of the nickel silver slide makes a slide crook with longer legs. My apologies if someone already posted this suggestion.

[Elow]

How about adding length to your instrument by asking someone like MK Drawing to make you a slide crook with longer legs. Pictured are two of my stock slides. You can see the manufacture of the nickel silver slide makes a slide crook with longer legs. My apologies if someone already posted this suggestion.

I’ve actually thought about wanting to change the crook out on my current slide so this might be a really good idea, thanks

[hornbuilder]

Elow,
Are you up for swapping out a crook?

My (M&W) crooks are made with an extra inch of length on each side, and would suit this type of job. Shoot me an email if interested.
[email protected]

[Elow]

Elow,
Are you up for swapping out a crook?

My (M&W) crooks are made with an extra inch of length on each side, and would suit this type of job. Shoot me an email if interested.
[email protected]

And i get cool ferrules

[hornbuilder]

"And I get cool ferrules"

No, the crook alone would be replaced. The ferrules, waterkey and gaurd bumper would be reused.

[Elow]

oh