I want to do it again, but I don't know

[PILI572]

Hello, I started playing the trombone when I was 20 years old, I got so involved in it, hoping to make up for the years of difference with those who started early.

I always wanted to play jazz and the disillusionment was even greater when I joined a jazz school.

Those who were at my level were teenagers, and I became increasingly frustrated with the learning method which was based on learning studies and not songs.

The method of learning improvisation was based on the learning and theoretical application of scales and modes, which if I didn’t know the song or if it was in a another key I was unable to play.

In the harmony class and at the Big Band there are 2 adult trumpeters who come only for these 2 courses and who can improvise quickly on any standard using only their ear, without knowing the chord progression or any other things.

When I asked them how they do it, they both told me that they do not know much, that they hear in their head what they want to play and that they manage to do it on their trumpet without knowing or wondering what notr it is. They both learned by playing themes and chorus with recordings.

What shocked me even more is that they can sing very well and when they sing it is exactly the same style as what they could do with their trumpet.

That’s what makes me love jazz so much and want to play it, that ability to say okay I don’t know this song, play the theme and the first chorus and I’ll be able to take a chorus.

After several years I stopped out of frustration and because it caused me a lot of anxiety problems due to the fact that I was never able to play by ear and feel ashamed at every class.

I’d like to play again, but just for myself, for my pleasure, but I’m afraid I’m going to fall back into my ways and want to do too much and be disappointed, especially since with a full-time job, a child and a house I don’t think I can play more than half an hour a day, maybe an hour on days I don’t work.

I also thought of playing the trumpet because what I like is hard bop and cool jazz, but I think it has to be more work than the trombone to only maintain the embouchure muscles.

Thank you

[ithinknot]

You might be interested in this recent thread, which covers lots of the issues you touch on - along with this one from which the other thread arose. They're both quite extensive, but there's a lot of good information in there.

[BGuttman]

Don't be too hard on yourself.

There are some great jazz trombone players. You don't have to play trumpet unless you want to.

Accept the fact that you aren't going to be [insert Jazz God here] and just do the best you can.

Get a Real Book with a lot of jazz standards so you can read the tunes you want to play.

Listen to good players and try to copy some of what they do. If it's too complex, figure out how to simplify it.

Play along with recordings. If that's too confusing, consider getting Music Minus One or Aebersolds. Aebersolds are "graded" from easy to hard so you can build up slowly.

Remember also that the early great Jazz players like Armstrong, Miff Mole, Jack Teagarden, etc. did not take classes in improv. They learned by listening. So can you. You can develop a feel for how a tune works; often based on a standard chord progression (check out Blues in [insert key here]).

And remember, this is supposed to be fun. Don't get too worked up on it.

[Bach5G]

I recently signed up for a lesson in improvisation with an experienced local pro.

His advice: learn some vocabulary (licks, patterns) and build from there.

Shawn Bell has some useful material on YouTube.

[Doug Elliott]

It would be nice to know what you DO know and CAN do, before trying to give advice on what you DON'T know and CAN'T do.

Among other things it's important to get started learning to play by ear. Start with Happy Birthday and any simple songs that you know. Pick a starting note and figure it out. I know it can be frustrating but you have to start somewhere.

[PILI572]

I know the basic articulations, swing, binary and how to articulate the triplets.

I can recognize the AABA and blues forms rather easily.

The tempo was a problem, playing a big band part at 180 with 8th notes runs was possible by working it, but improvising above 110 it was complicated, I could not think fast enough.

Tessiture wise, high Bb was correct at best...

[robcat2075]

I've never enjoyed an improv class.

There's always some hipster dude running it and he rambles on about how this isn't like that uptight classical shit, man. It's all about what YOU want to do, man. It's about FREEDOM, man!

Then when my turn comes, I get three notes out and he stops everyone and says, "No, you're doing it wrong!"

I've never enjoyed an improv class.

When I asked them how they do it, they both told me that they do not know much,

Accomplished players are often lousy teachers because they don't have explanations for the things that they didn't need to have explained to them.

(I realize the individuals you mention are not the actual teachers of the class)

After several years I stopped out of frustration and because it caused me a lot of anxiety problems due to the fact that I was never able to play by ear and feel ashamed at every class.

Now there are jazz improv methods that come with recordings you can play along to with no expert musician judging you. Try that for a while before you jump into a live class again and always fearing failure.

Some are about scales (which you say you don't like) but some are about "songs". Some are both.

Find one that looks like you'd have fun with it.

No, the recording method doesn't get you the expert feedback that a class does, but you've done the class and the expert feedback wasn't solving your problem, was it?

[lauriet]

I always wanted to be Tiger Woods.
I read all the books, went to the driving range twice a week, played 9 holes every night one summer.
Turns out I'm OK at it, probably better than average, but I "ain't no Tiger".
So the fun is in the chase, not the capture.
Try to enjoy the process.

[PILI572]

Yeah, I think the same, especially with only an half hour per day...

[Conn100HGuy]

You might get some benefit from David Reed's "Improvise For Real". His approach is based on our innate connection to music. He helps us connect with our instruments without the structural constraints that most methods depend on. Think of music as a language and consider how we learn to speak. We don't study grammar before we learn to communicate - instead, we "acquire" language and study its structure later. In the same way, we learn to hum and sing as children without a single lesson - it just starts to happen because we're exposed to music from the day we're born. It's a really intriguing approach that puts making music first.

[Doug Elliott]

IF we're exposed to music from the day we're born.

[Pre59]

Yeah, I think the same, especially with only an half hour per day...

If you're driving to work you could certainly use that time to good effect, by listening to older simpler jazz and jazz education backing tracks?

[PILI572]

Yeah always listening to jazz when driving.

[Doug Elliott]

Maybe not while driving, but you can easily double or triple your effective practice time by actively listening - mentally play along with everything you hear. It's part of ear training and playing by ear.

[PILI572]

Yeah I do this all the time.

Recently I tried to sing chorus or just phrases without thinkin' key or scale, just sing somethin' melodic that's fit into the song moment, boy I'm suck at it.

When I hear it in my head I believe it fit beautifully but when I sing it loud it's not the same...

[BGuttman]

Yeah I do this all the time.

Recently I tried to sing chorus or just phrases without thinkin' key or scale, just sing somethin' melodic that's fit into the song moment, boy I'm suck at it.

When I hear it in my head I believe it fit beautifully but when I sing it loud it's not the same...

Keep trying. It will get better.

[soseggnchips]

When I hear it in my head I believe it fit beautifully but when I sing it loud it's not the same...

If you can hear what you want to play in your head you're halfway there - the next step is being able to turn that mental impression into actual notes.

Practice playing by ear. Start simple: children's songs, well-known melodies, riffs from pop songs. The secret is to do it a lot - you want to get to the point where you can hear something and work out what the notes are almost in real-time.

You're on the right track. Turning what you hear in your head into notes on the instrument is the key to improvisation. All the theory and chord/scale stuff helps, but it's really just clues to help you create that internal melody in the first place.