Playing a horn part on trombone

[lupusargentus]

I have a new music friend who would like to play some duets. He's a horn player and suggested we give the Otto Nicolai duets a try.
So here's my questions:
Does anyone known if there is a bass clef version? (please say yes)
Is there or what is, the process to transpose a horn part to tenor trombone?
Same question for alto trombone. I have one so why not.

Please consider answers suitable for someone with dyslexia who understands the funny clefs but would really rather only think in bass. So, playing tenor, read it in alto clef, up one step, and add three accidentals won't help.
It's an information processing thing and the more pieces to keep track of, the greater the chance of splat. Or for computer guys; it's a fast processor with a single core versus a slower multi core processor. Now open up several programs for simultaneous use Which cpu crashes first?

[BGuttman]

Horn in F is read as mezzo-soprano clef, where the C symbol is on the second line up from the bottom (what would be B in bass clef). It's like alto clef shifted down one line (to make alto clef from mezzo-soprano clef, erase the top line and add one line to the bottom). Add one flat to the key signature.

Horn in Eb is read as bass clef but with 3 additional flats.

If you practice mezzo-soprano clef slowly you can get used to it. I played a lot of horn parts in symphony orchestra on trombone (because they were short horn players in this particular orchestra). I also played the 3rd part in Brass Quintet this way.

You managed to learn alto and tenor clefs. This is just one more arrow in the quivver.

[robcat2075]

How about copying the part into MuseScore or whatever your preferred notation program is and doing the transposition and clef change there?

It's only hard if you are using the program wrong.

[BGuttman]

How about copying the part into MuseScore or whatever your preferred notation program is and doing the transposition and clef change there?

It's only hard if you are using the program wrong.

True, but time consuming.

[robcat2075]

How about copying the part into MuseScore or whatever your preferred notation program is and doing the transposition and clef change there?

It's only hard if you are using the program wrong.

True, but time consuming.

It's only time consuming if you''re doing it wrong.

[brassmedic]

If you have a pdf of the part, you can convert it directly into Musescore. Then you can change the clef and use the transpose tool. Doesn't always work, though. Depends on the quality of the original pdf.

[brassmedic]

Oh, forgot the link. https://musescore.com/import

[LeTromboniste]

True, but time consuming.

It's only time consuming if you''re doing it wrong.

As someone who prepares editions professionally, and probably has a faster-that-average workflow, I would say the opposite. Generally, in making a good transcription, you're doing it wrong if it's *not* time consuming.

In the big scale of things of course transcribing a single horn part isn't very long. Still takes some time, where sight transposing takes none. But they're both useful skills to have and practice so this is a good opportunity to work on either.

[StephenK]

If you intend to play the part in the correct octave, it's probably best to use an e flat alto and take up a tone. It's what I do in a quintet. This assumes you can play brass band type treble clef, which is how I learnt in any case. When you have lots of pieces, and new ones appearing any time, rewriting isn't really an option, worth spending time practising the transposition, whichever way you do it.

[BGuttman]

Note that Stephen refers to playing an Eb horn in treble clef, not alto clef like an alto trombone. If you can play an alto trombone in transposed treble clef, his method should work fine.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

While learning to transpose music using music writing software is a nice skill to learn, it simplifies the demand on the musician. Another problem I have with any software is that it becomes obsolete in a matter of months or years.

For this reason, I recommend learning the art and skill of transposing at sight. It forces the musician to depend on their musical skills instead of their data entry skills. The skill of transposing well NEVER become obsolete! There are different techniques for the mental process and eventually every musician settles in on a technique that really works best for them (possibly that should be a discussion in itself). I must admit that I have an advantage because I have been a band/orchestra director for 35 years, so I look at scores and do instant transpositions constantly. However, the skill is VERY useful as a performing musician as well.

I have been in situations that have required me to use almost every transposition....covered horn parts in bands, covered alto sax parts in a pit orchestra, covered horn parts is about 6 different transpositions in orchestra rehearsals. This leads me to another bit of advice......don't just learn to transpose "Horn in F" parts. Learn all of the transpositions.

[BGuttman]

Good point, Brian. Orchestral horn parts are in a variety of keys (Horn in F, Horn in C, Horn in Eb, Horn in G, etc.). I ran into this trying to play the Siegfried Rhine Journey on my (then) brand new Alto Trombone. I did fine until I hit Horn in E and lost it. Throw in bass clef horn (transposed!) and it really gets weird.

But if I read his post properly, the OP is planning to play duets, which are generally all in F.

[LeTromboniste]

While learning to transpose music using music writing software is a nice skill to learn, it simplifies the demand on the musician. Another problem I have with any software is that it becomes obsolete in a matter of months or years.

For this reason, I recommend learning the art and skill of transposing at sight. It forces the musician to depend on their musical skills instead of their data entry skills. The skill of transposing well NEVER become obsolete! There are different techniques for the mental process and eventually every musician settles in on a technique that really works best for them (possibly that should be a discussion in itself). I must admit that I have an advantage because I have been a band/orchestra director for 35 years, so I look at scores and do instant transpositions constantly. However, the skill is VERY useful as a performing musician as well.

I have been in situations that have required me to use almost every transposition....covered horn parts in bands, covered alto sax parts in a pit orchestra, covered horn parts is about 6 different transpositions in orchestra rehearsals. This leads me to another bit of advice......don't just learn to transpose "Horn in F" parts. Learn all of the transpositions.

Absolutely agree. It's a bit of a special case because of the field I'm in, but I routinely have to play in 8 different clefs on trombones, let alone transpositions. Granted most trombone players don't have to do that, but sight reading all clefs and being fluent at transposing is an extremely useful skill, and one I think should receive more attention. You never know when you'll need it; when you suddenly find yourself needing it, it's to late; even if you end up never needing it, it improves your overall reading skills and makes you a better musician.

That being said, transcribing music is not going anywhere. And as for software becoming obsolete, well...I use a software that's still not completely obsolete and is 12 years old! For what it's worth, my first use of notation software was transcribing pieces from tenor clef to bass before I learned to read it, and transposing parts for others, and now 15 years later a substantial portion of my income comes from a few very well-paid gigs preparing editions. So there again, you never know where the skills you pick up and build along the way will take you.

[robcat2075]

It's only time consuming if you''re doing it wrong.

As someone who prepares editions professionally...

As someone who doesn't sit around manufacturing false equivalencies, I'll note that a previous time this forum complained that using a notation editor was TOO HARD and TOO SLOW I made a video showing me doing the thing that was imagined to be TOO HARD and TOO SLOW and showed it wasn't too hard and wasn't too slow.

And then the complaint was that it only looked easy because I knew how to use the program!.

No kiddin', huh?

My suggestion is a valid one. It will be the right one for many people. It certainly isn't a dangerous one that needs to be shouted down with made-up concern trolling.

The OP is entirely capable of deciding if he wants to use it or not.

I offered my solution without feeling the need to ridicule anyone else's solution even though multiple objections could be voiced about it.

The OP is entirely capable of deciding if he wants to use it or not.

[LeTromboniste]

As someone who prepares editions professionally...

As someone who doesn't sit around manufacturing false equivalencies, I'll note that a previous time this forum complained that using a notation editor was TOO HARD and TOO SLOW I made a video showing me doing the thing that was imagined to be TOO HARD and TOO SLOW and showed it wasn't too hard and wasn't too slow.

And then the complaint was that it only looked easy because I knew how to use the program!.

No kiddin', huh?

My suggestion is a valid one. It will be the right one for many people. It certainly isn't a dangerous one that needs to be shouted down with made-up concern trolling.

The OP is entirely capable of deciding if he wants to use it or not.

I offered my solution without feeling the need to ridicule anyone else's solution even though multiple objections could be voiced about it.

The OP is entirely capable of deciding if he wants to use it or not.

If you read back the thread, you'll notice that I'm in fact making the same point as you, that transcribing it is a valid option and actually an opportunity to practice that skill. Not objecting to or ridiculing your solution, not in the least.

I was merely objecting to the notion that it's only time consuming if you don't know how to do it. Engraving music well is a craft that requires more care and time than most people realise is all I'm saying.

[lupusargentus]

Thank you for the suggestions. I have a copy of Musescore and have figured out the change instruments feature, so as long as I have an existing score/part to work with, it's a quick process. I haven't used the pdf import yet but will give it a try. I am old enough to have done the transcribe off an album thing so I appreciate the new tools.

Something for a few of you to think about. I'm 54 years old, I have three degrees (not in music) from a top ranked state flagship university, I have been director of a public library for over eight years. I am a well educated professional. I am also not neuro-typical. I have moderate to severe learning difficulties, ADD, and the above mentioned dyslexia. I posted my question here hoping for a relatively easy answer.
The reason I'm putting this out there is for those of you who teach, please pay attention to what you are saying to your students and how you are saying it. You can do a lot of damage to a young musician and not realize it. Some of the responses bordered on condemning. I'm an adult and can filter it out. When I was a 20 year old performance major similar comments from a couple faculty members and particularly my private teacher broke me. As in, drop out of school and essentially walk away from the horn for over 30 years. I'm not calling anyone out, just asking for a bit of thought before you answer.

[robcat2075]

I was merely objecting to the notion that it's only time consuming if you don't know how to do it. Engraving music well is a craft that requires more care and time than most people realise is all I'm saying.

The OP doesn't need to prepare it for "engraving". He just wants to transcribe it so he can play it.

The objection is about an imaginary problem that the OP doesn't have.

I had a teacher once who prepared scores "for engraving" the old-fashioned way... with ink and pens and rulers and special vellum paper. it looked very impressive but his throughput was glacial.

No matter how bad someone is at Musescore, no matter how much they don't realise, it's still going to be faster than any other way it's going to get done.

[btone]

In the interest of giving a relatively simple solution, maybe for some at least, I used to read horn parts along with horn players on the trombone when I was a band director. My little shortcut was to read it in bass clef and up a nineth (up an octave and one step) and change the key signature. I think the key signature thing you do is remove one sharp from, or add one flat to the horn key signature to get your BC key signature. With accidentals I think two notes are affected uniquely: horn F natural is bass clef Bb, so a sharp on that pitch would be read as a natural. Horn C natural is Eb so do the same with it. It worked easily for me because I was used to reading fake books written in C treble clef and transposing those up one step from my B-flat treble clef reading. Works just fine for me anyway. My section mate in Symphony reads horn music using the movable clef system I think.