Shipping a trombone

[BuffaloBones]

I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this but here goes.
Well it is with great excitement that I have purchased a Yamaha 691 that is near Dallas, TX. I hope that it's everything that everyone says it is.

However, the seller is apprehensive about shipping it. They don't want to be responsible for any damage (who would?). It has a hard case. I was thinking, bubble wrap the hard case, put that inside a lamp box and that ought to do it?
Would UPS do that service? He really doesn't want to do any of the packing. Unfortunately I cannot do it myself.

Or, alternatively, anyone know horn players in the Dallas area (he's in Grapevine) want to make a few bucks to pack and ship it?

[Burgerbob]

Horn in the case, then in a good size box with packing peanuts for filling. Enough that the case won't move inside the box.

[although]

Yep, several inches of peanuts all around the case, packed in tight. I've received two horns and a case like that. It worked just fine.

[CalgaryTbone]

I had some stuff packed at a Mail Boxes, etc. store (is that still the name, or have they merged with UPS?). Anyway, send the seller some instructions to pass along to the shipper. I like to add some bubblewrap in the bell - make a cone shape that inserts into the bell so it can't move forward if the box is dropped.

Yamaha cases are pretty well made, so that should help a lot.

Jim Scott

[brassmedic]

Every horn I've ever seen that was smashed was shipped inside a hard case. I think it's actually more dangerous than shipping it with no case. The reason is, when they drop the package (notice I said when, not if), the case will stop suddenly when it hits the ground, but the horn will continue moving, and slam against the end of the case, crumpling the bell. If you are going to do this, I would strongly recommend getting as much bubble wrap around the horn inside the case as you can, and making sure there's a styrofoam cone or rolled up bubble wrap inside the bell to stop it from slamming against the end of the case. And, as already mentioned, as many packing peanuts in the box around the outside of the case as you can get in there, so it can't shift around AT ALL. I would not trust a UPS store to do that kind of wrapping. They don't know what they're doing.

[Burgerbob]

Every horn I've ever seen that was smashed was shipped inside a hard case. I think it's actually more dangerous than shipping it with no case.

I do prefer to ship a horn without a case. Cheaper and safer if packed correctly.

[spoink47]

I read somewhere that FRAGILE stickers actually asking for targeting - but there are others, something like GLASS - that will help. In addition, the more padding the better. I'd get another box the entire case could fit in and fill that with packing peanuts or popcorn or something.
Good luck!

[Posaunus]

... shipped inside a hard case. I think it's actually more dangerous than shipping it with no case. The reason is, when they drop the package (notice I said when, not if), the case will stop suddenly when it hits the ground, but the horn will continue moving, and slam against the end of the case, crumpling the bell.

Happened to me. Thanks, USPS. Thought I'd packed it carefully, but Postal Service managed to massively crumple the bell. Fully insured, but that was useless. USPS made it extremely difficult to file a claim, then their best offer was to take the trombone away and reimburse me for the insurance amount, rather than repairing the trombone. In my case the recipient wanted the trombone, so I had him ship the bell back to me (UPS), had the bell uncrumpled (thanks to John Sandhagen ), and returned it to the buyer (UPS). Fortunately, it all worked out, though not without a great deal of consternation and wasted time.

[mrdeacon]

It's amazing how poorly people pack instruments. I once received a trombone with no case loose in a box of packing peanuts and another time (from a major brass shop) without tape on one end of the box!

Brad gave some great suggestions. Really just be smart about wrapping it. As Brad said you MUST have something literally inside the bell and the horn needs bubble wrap in the case. If the horn is just loose in the case there's a huge chance the bell will arrive crunched. You want the horn packed so it doesn't move and when you shake the box you shouldn't hear any sound.

[hornbuilder]

Agree 100% with Brad. Make sure the horn can't move inside the case, and that the bell rim cannot come into contact with the end of the case.

I had a client send a trombone packed in it's case (with no additional padding inside), and then 2 layers of bubble wrap around the case. That was it. No box, just a bubble wrapped case. Yes, the bell was crunched.

[SwissTbone]

Every horn I've ever seen that was smashed was shipped inside a hard case. I think it's actually more dangerous than shipping it with no case. The reason is, when they drop the package (notice I said when, not if), the case will stop suddenly when it hits the ground, but the horn will continue moving, and slam against the end of the case, crumpling the bell. If you are going to do this, I would strongly recommend getting as much bubble wrap around the horn inside the case as you can, and making sure there's a styrofoam cone or rolled up bubble wrap inside the bell to stop it from slamming against the end of the case. And, as already mentioned, as many packing peanuts in the box around the outside of the case as you can get in there, so it can't shift around AT ALL. I would not trust a UPS store to do that kind of wrapping. They don't know what they're doing.

Agree! If you have to use a case for shipping, make sure the trombone cannot touch the case when moving around. Bubble wrap. A lot... But also make sure there's still some wiggle. If you pack it up too tight, it isn't good either.

Than same procedure for the case inside the cardboard box.

But shipping without case is safer in my opinion. Then you can put as much Bubble wrap around the horn as you want and really make sure it doesn't make contact with anything hard.

[soseggnchips]

I can see how shipping a trombone without its case would protect it against being dropped or thrown, but would it not leave it much more vulnerable to being crushed or bent? (put in the van first and then heavy things piled on top of it, for example.)

I did a brief stint working for the postal service many years ago, so I'm under no illusions about the abuse packages get subjected to - to be honest, I consider it a minor miracle anything ever arrives in one piece!

[SwissTbone]

I can see how shipping a trombone without its case would protect it against being dropped or thrown, but would it not leave it much more vulnerable to being crushed or bent? (put in the van first and then heavy things piled on top of it, for example.)

I did a brief stint working for the postal service many years ago, so I'm under no illusions about the abuse packages get subjected to - to be honest, I consider it a minor miracle anything ever arrives in one piece!

Hm. Maybe. I never saw a good condition cardboard box being crushed. They can support some weight. Then of course... if somebody uses a box that's already made it through 3 shipping, some rain etc... then all bets are off.

I use new boxes nearly exclusively. If I re-use a box than because it's still I perfect condition.

[CalgaryTbone]

Check out Ilan Morgenstern's "Trombone shipping" video on YouTube. I used his method to ship a horn without a case for some repairs.

It involves putting a round cardboard tube within the box - I went to Home Depot and bought a cardboard tube for making cement footings. It was a bit longer than the box I was using, so I had to cut it down to size with a utility knife. Very rigid cardboard, without too much added weight. If you size it right, it's a snug fit within the box, and you bubble-wrap the instrument and use lots of styrofoam peanuts. I also put piece of cardboard between the bell and slide (that were bubble-wrapped separately, to make sure that they couldn't shift within the box and make contact with each other. He suggested "bell up" and that worked well this application. I made a cone of bubble wrap to place in the bell to protect it, along with a few pieces of it between the lid of the box and the instrument. It made a round trip, Calgary - Toronto without a scratch

Unlike the box, the cardboard tube should be able to make multiple trips if you can find a spot in your basement until the next time you need it.

Jim Scott

[Bach5G]

I’ve only ever had one problem. A kid put the case (trombone inside) in a shipping crate with just a thin wrap of bubble wrap around it. Otherwise, the case was free to rattle around inside the shipping crate. Naturally the bell got crunched. The kid accused me of dropping the horn.

Fortunately, the bell was repaired inexpensively without any visible damage.

I recently shipped a bass trombone across the country (Vancouver - Toronto) in a gig bag surrounded by lots of styrofoam chips in a generous sized box. It survived without damage.

[Posaunus]

Unlike the box, the cardboard tube should be able to make multiple trips if you can find a spot in your basement until the next time you need it.
Jim Scott

Basement? What's a basement?

Most homes here in the southwestern U.S. are built on ground-level concrete slabs! I had to build a loft in my garage to provide space for what was once stored in my previous (non-California) basement.

[CalgaryTbone]

The basement is where I store all those horns I say I'm going to find more opportunities to play, and all of that music that I intend to practice someday.

Jim Scott

[spoink47]

Yes, a garage is something which is more often used to store equipment. Never heard of keeping instruments in a basement. Isn't it too dry/wet for safe storage?

[whitbey]

I recently shipped a horn. Towels in case. Case in box. Box in 2nd box.
The oddity was the UPS store wanted to repack the horn if I bought the insurance. My home owners covers it. They did not repack.

[CalgaryTbone]

Yes, a garage is something which is more often used to store equipment. Never heard of keeping instruments in a basement. Isn't it too dry/wet for safe storage?

Very dry climate here - not too much worry of moisture problems. I've never heard of issues with spaces that are dry for brass instruments, but woodwinds and strings do need to add some humidity to keep their instruments from developing cracks.

Back to the topic, I really liked the cardboard tube insert for the shipping box. It felt very solid, but the weight for shipping was probably a bit less than using a case.

Jim Scott

[Bach5G]

Someone once suggested using several of those foam noodles (swimming) to surround the case and then fill the voids with styrofoam. Might be seasonal (spring/summer).

[WGWTR180]

Noah Gladstone shipped me a bass trombone in a hard case. Packed properly WITHIN the case and around the case inside the shipping box the horn showed up in perfect condition. I have sent many instruments without cases. So far 100% success rate arriving with zero damage.

[ithinknot]

Back to the topic, I really liked the cardboard tube insert for the shipping box. It felt very solid, but the weight for shipping was probably a bit less than using a case.

Agree with all the above re case dangers, but bear in mind that some services price on the basis of 'dimensional weight', in which the dimensions of the box generate a theoretical weight based on some standard density, and you only pay more if you exceed that threshold. In practice, even a bass trombone in an old woodshell coffin isn't as heavy as the theoretical package of the same dimensions, so reducing weight doesn't save any money.

But sometimes it does - so you have to read the fine print or play with the price calculator tool to establish what's going on.

[brassmedic]

I can see how shipping a trombone without its case would protect it against being dropped or thrown, but would it not leave it much more vulnerable to being crushed or bent? (put in the van first and then heavy things piled on top of it, for example.)

If it's packed correctly I don't think that's much of an issue. You need A LOT of bubble wrap. The good kind with 1" bubbles, not the useless kind with tiny bubbles (isn't that a song?). If you get enough bubble wrap around the instrument, it simply deflects when pushed. Then the box must be bigger than the instrument so that there is space all around it, and that space must be tightly filled with foam peanuts, not a couple pieces of wadded up newspaper tossed in loosely (yes, I've seen that). I pour some peanuts in, push them down with my hands, then add more and repeat. When you're done, you would be able to throw the box across the room and that instrument won't move an inch inside the box. You would easily be able to sit on the box and do no damage.

Or a lot of people build internal partitions of heavy cardboard or even wood. That's also good if done correctly.

I'm not saying it isn't possible for the horn to get damaged, I just think it's MORE risky if it's in a hard case. Most of the damage I've witnessed is from some sort of a blow, not from crushing.

[Mamaposaune]

There are some excellent ideas here, and I just wanted to add a few more. Years ago I shipped a nice vintage 6H in it's original Stratoliner case, I thought I did an exceptional packing job. There was a cone in the bell; bubble wrap filled the case so the horn couldn't shift.
I also surrounded the case with tightly packed peanuts so it couldn't shift around within the (sturdy) box.
However, the beautiful Conn arrived damaged. The buyer took me to task for not using peanuts in the box, I assured him I had. However, the USPS had managed to damage the box so badly that all the peanuts spilled out, and the bell end of the tank-of-a-case was also damaged, as was the bell of the horn.
Fortunately I had before-pictures, and after a lot of persistent but soft-spoken pestering, the P.S. did make good on paying for repairs and a "replacement" case.
Now, I pack cereal boxes full of peanuts to fill in the space between the case and the box, so they can't spill out.
I have also found those pool noodles that are available at Dollar stores to work great - they can be cut to just the right length to stuff in the bell, and fill in the spaces in the case.

[Kingfan]

I shipped a King 3B in a coffin case inside a padded box (golf club boxes from U-Haul work well, BTW). It got dropped at some point and the bell crumpled. The UPS insurance was useless - they said I needed to prove I had 3 inches of peanuts, bubble wrap, or other padding, which was hard to prove once the box was opened, even though the recipient was a professional trombonist and said it was properly packed. I'll mention at this point a case like this has a compartment for the bell section but nothing securing it from shifting around in the compartment. I think they said if the store had packed the horn the insurance would have been honored.

I bought a King 7B bass and the seller did nothing except wrap the case in brown paper. No padding inside or out. The bell section is held from shifting by a slot holding one of the valve tubing braces. It got from Texas to Ohio in perfect condition. Go figure.

[Doubler]

I wonder if insuring the package affects the care/abuse with which it will be treated. I often photograph and always insure shipments and no claim has been made so far. Luck?

[Posaunus]

I wonder if insuring the package affects the care/abuse with which it will be treated. I often photograph and always insure shipments and no claim has been made so far. Luck?

Yes, Luck.

I got shafted by USPS who damaged an insured trombone shipment and made it impossible to collect insurance claim.

[Doug Elliott]

Yes, if you can't produce a receipt showing how much you paid for the item, in effect there's no insurance. I've had that problem too.

[WGWTR180]

For FWIW my recent shipper of choice has been Fed Ex using their home delivery option. I'm done with the USPS.

[Jhereg]

I'm shipping a horn on Sunday and shouldn't have read this thread

I'm putting a cone in the bell, and using a nice fitted hard case, and using bubble wrap and/or some sort of cushioning inside the case, and it's going in a box with peanuts tightly packed. And will take pics before and insure it and etc. But reading this thread makes me feel like NOTHING arrives without damage, which can't be true. Hell, I've gotten horns from manufacturers that were just instrument + case + box that arrived without damage.

[CalgaryTbone]

I would suggest taking pictures during the packing process to show the various steps you have taken to secure the instrument. Have some proof to show that you took every possible reasonable measure to protect what you were shipping. If something happens, you will have a better case for being compensated.

I received a new bell section earlier this year from an upscale trombone manufacturer, without a case. The horn arrived in perfect shape, but UPS trashed the box! I was amazed that the horn wasn't damaged - a testament to how they packed it. Still, the styrofoam peanuts were falling out of the box, which looked like it had been dropped, perhaps more than once. I made sure to notify the shipper so they could complain to UPS. UPS was also a pain with the delivery - they kept putting it back on the truck for delivery again after they came once at a different time than what was on the online delivery notice. I called and emailed to have it sent to the depot for me to pick up when I was able to do so. I actually missed the first delivery because they said they would deliver between 3 - 7PM, and I took the dog out at 1PM to make sure that I'd be home for the entire afternoon. I actually saw the truck pulling away from my house at about 1:15/ 1:30PM - well over an hour before the delivery window. Then, the process for setting up a delivery or pickup showed that they don't pay any attention to the customer's requests using the communication options that they provide.

My other suggestion, obviously, is to use a service other than UPS.

Jim Scott

[Doug Elliott]

Packing peanuts are not secure. They can crush and they don't rebound back to their original volume - and they can fall out of a hole in the box as mentioned.. Bubble wrap is the way to go, fill the space and especially make thick pads for both ends of the box.

[Jhereg]

I would suggest taking pictures during the packing process to show the various steps you have taken to secure the instrument. Have some proof to show that you took every possible reasonable measure to protect what you were shipping. If something happens, you will have a better case for being compensated.

Yes, I'm packaging it up tonight after work and am going to send pics to the buyer (who also has vastly more experience packing/shipping horns than I do.) That way if he'd like me to add packaging, do anything differently, etc, I can do that for him. I can't control what the shipper does but at minimum I can make sure we've both done all we can before I send it.

My other suggestion, obviously, is to use a service other than UPS.

I've seen arguments for or against every shipper, and instances pro and con for how stuff arrived. It's a gamble no matter who you choose. I'm not using FedEx at the buyer's request, the USPS store here is absolutely horrific and I don't trust them to ship a paper letter, and the UPS store here has been nothing but fantastic so far, so I'm using them.

[Jhereg]

Packing peanuts are not secure. They can crush and they don't rebound back to their original volume - and they can fall out of a hole in the box as mentioned.. Bubble wrap is the way to go, fill the space and especially make thick pads for both ends of the box.

Yessir! Buying the kind with the big fat bubbles and filling 'er up. may also use some of that crumpled brown paper stuff. But no peanuts, especially not from Florida because get this: they're BIODEGRADABLE now which is great but it means the peanuts dissolve into nothing the instant they get wet!!

[harrisonreed]

Heck yeah. Let's only use non-biodegradable forever foam to pack our stuff. Bonus points if you dump the packing foam and bubble wrap directly into the ocean after you get the horn.

I'm being facetious of course -- we all want to protect our $5000 instruments... But biodegradable packing peanuts sound like a pretty damn good idea. I bet they would hold up unless you're shipping your horn in an open bed pickup truck.

[Jhereg]

Heck yeah. Let's only use non-biodegradable forever foam to pack our stuff. Bonus points if you dump the packing foam and bubble wrap directly into the ocean after you get the horn.

I'm being facetious of course -- we all want to protect our $5000 instruments... But biodegradable packing peanuts sound like a pretty damn good idea. I bet they would hold up unless you're shipping your horn in an open bed pickup truck.

They are great. Didn’t mean to offend anyone or start a packing peanut controversy. Cheers!

[JohnL]

Didn’t mean to offend anyone or start a packing peanut controversy.

Brings back memories of my time working in retail. I hated unpacking shipments that were packed in styrofoam peanuts; the darned things get EVERYWHERE (both whole peanuts and the little scraps that come along with them) and they tend to stick to stuff because of static electricity (at least here in low-humidity SoCal).

My method for using packing peanuts is to stuff them into plastic bags (wastebasket or tall kitchen size works well for packing a cased trombone in a box), burp the bags, and then seal 'em up. You can still used them for filling oddly shaped spaces, they're far less likely to shift around, and they don't make nearly so much of a mess when the recipient unpacks them. Bonus if you're using biodegradable peanuts, the plastic bag keeps them dry in all but the worst conditions. It keeps the peanuts clean, too, so people are more likely to re-use them. If they do throw them in the trash, it keeps them from getting loose outside. If they're biodegradable, you should put a note in the box telling the recipient that they are and asking them to unbag them if they're going to toss them.

Yes, I've thought about this a lot...

[cb56]

This has been 20 years ago, I shipped a horn to the Cleveland area for a professional refurbish. The guy shipped tons of horns and knew how to pack a horn. UPS still managed to crease the bell. Fortunately he insured it so I was able to send it back and got it repaired at no cost to me.
Pack it well, insure it and keep your fingers crossed.

[Jhereg]

My method for using packing peanuts is to stuff them into plastic bags (wastebasket or tall kitchen size works well for packing a cased trombone in a box), burp the bags, and then seal 'em up. You can still used them for filling oddly shaped spaces, they're far less likely to shift around, and they don't make nearly so much of a mess when the recipient unpacks them. Bonus if you're using biodegradable peanuts, the plastic bag keeps them dry in all but the worst conditions. It keeps the peanuts clean, too, so people are more likely to re-use them. If they do throw them in the trash, it keeps them from getting loose outside. If they're biodegradable, you should put a note in the box telling the recipient that they are and asking them to unbag them if they're going to toss them.

Yes, I've thought about this a lot...

Smart!
I only usually ship stuff at Christmas, and will be glad to use peanuts then because generally it’s cooler, less rainy, and a non-issue.

I received a box from family once, in a thunderstorm, and it was FOAMING out of one corner where it hadn’t been quite fully taped. That was the peanuts vaporizing when they came in contact with water.

That, and half the posts here mention how the peanuts shift, compress, and leak out of box punctures. So I think choosing whatever works best in the moment is fine for anyone. Peanuts at Christmas for cookies and toys for my sisters’ kids, great. Peanuts in July in Florida during monsoon season for a rare trombone, not for me whether they’re garbage bagged or not. BUT that’s an excellent strategy!!

[harrisonreed]

Yeah ... I retract my theory. Florida has some crazy weather. But the bag idea might help

[brassmedic]

The key to using foam peanuts is you have to push them in. If you just dump a few in there loose, it won't protect the instrument at all. The biodegradable ones will dissolve in water, but I'm not in the habit of pouring water into my packages. If it's sitting out in the rain for a long time with a hole in the box, that's after you already received it, and whatever damage there is already happened before it sat in the rain. I have a 100% success rate shipping instruments. I think UPS is the worst as far as abusing packages, but it could happen with any shipper. You just have to pack it with the assumption that it's going to get beaten up.

[ghmerrill]

Packing peanuts are not secure. ... Bubble wrap is the way to go, fill the space and especially make thick pads for both ends of the box.

This is a somewhat embarrassing story, but ...

Many years ago I bought a Cerveny 4/4 BBb tuba from Woodwind and Brasswind. It was shipped by truck express and arrived at a depot about 20 miles from my house. I took the pickup to get it.

When they brought it out it was still in the wooden crate in which it had been shipped (by ship) from Czechoslovakia. It was pretty big. I hadn't brought tie-downs. It said "THIS SIDE UP". Naturally, this resulted in it standing up on the small end. I dithered about laying it down. But the instructions were emphatic, and I didn't know how it was packed. I thought, "Okay, it's pretty heavy. If I take it easy, there shouldn't be any problem and it won't fall over in the bed."

(You may think where this is going, but you probably can't really imagine ...)

Off I go towards home at a relatively sedate speed: about 50 mph. Everything went well, I could see it sliding around a bit on the bed liner, but not much. I was a couple of miles from home, going up a long straight shallow grade, and ...

A semi in the other lane goes past me doing about 70 (mph). In the rearview mirror I see the tuba being sucked up out of the bed by the draft from the semi, doing a full rotation in the air, and landing on one end behind me in the middle of the lane. If it were an Olympic event, it would have been a 10 for performance. It really stuck the landing.

Luckily there was no other traffic. I come to a quick stop, back up, get out, and ... everything looks okay. But I think to myself "This thing has to be destroyed inside." I just destroyed a "$2,500" Czech tuba (when $2,500 meant something!). But I manage to get it back in the bed and another 2 miles to home up the road. This time I lay it down on the long side.

I get it into the house and reluctantly open up the crate to examine my totally destroyed tuba, except ...

All I see is an impenetrable block of excelsior -- which may tell you roughly how long ago this was. I start taking the block of excelsior apart, and see that somewhere in there is a full size red brass tuba -- in a plastic bag -- firmly packed in the compressed excelsior. I finally managed to extract it and THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE. At that point I know there's a Tuba God and he/she/it has protected me.

I think today, if I had to ship an instrument, I might use that old technique. I've seen the stress test. I should point out that this tuba, while beautiful, was quite soft because of the red brass allow. Over the 15 years I had it, I put a couple of small dents in it even though I was paranoid and excessively careful about that. But the full flip dive it took onto road asphalt out of the back of truck hadn't left a mark on it.

[timbone]

Years ago Larry Minnick gave me a good tip. Go to the local Michaels craft store and get one of those green cones they stick fake plants in, stick it in the bell and cut it to size in your case so it extends to the end of the case, so if it takes a hit, it transfers the impact to the throat and not twist the bell. You can use bubble wrap accordingly too.

[Lhbone]

I hadn't brought tie-downs.

Wow. You could have killed someone...yikes. Death by tuba.