How to deal with pro people------

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:19 pm

When I read the last posts in the " who in the right mind play a 1 1/2g" I got mad. I can and will explain it more. Yes I think its fair to ask questions, but not to be rude....The pro people here take a chance even to show their name. Let us be thankful and glad they even choose to be here with us....

Respect is maybe a word that is on the way out in our vocubalry....

Leif

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:24 pm

Pro people who make suggestions and don't lord their status over you are worthy of respect.

Pro people who treat anybody with different ideas as dirt do not deserve respect.

Same thing goes for kids with big egos.

You know who you are

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:26 pm

What happened Leif? I didn't seem to catch it...

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:38 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 08, 2016, 06:24PMPro people who make suggestions and don't lord their status over you are worthy of respect.

Pro people who treat anybody with different ideas as dirt do not deserve respect.

Same thing goes for kids with big egos.

You know who you are

Very true Bruce.....

Quote from: HouBassTrombone on Apr 08, 2016, 06:26PMWhat happened Leif? I didn't seem to catch it...

I dont like pro people being put down by people that really dont have a clue.....thats why.

Leif

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:56 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 08, 2016, 06:24PMPro people who make suggestions and don't lord their status over you are worthy of respect.

Pro people who treat anybody with different ideas as dirt do not deserve respect.

Same thing goes for kids with big egos.

You know who you are

I have a big ego .... give out advice .... and still feel like a kid ....

I just got cut deep....

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:11 pm

I have given lot of pepper to pro people, just ask Sam or Sabutin

Leif

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Are you referring to me?

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:23 pm

I'm not sure I see the problem there. Dan Hine (?) was asking follow up questions?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:08 pm

I'm quite sure Dan did not mean any insult, it was an honest question.

I get asked the same thing, why do I choose to play on a very large rim when a smaller mouthpiece would produce "the right sound." The answer is consistently better function and comfort (for my embouchure), which are both very important to me. Cleaner attacks and articulation, easier flexibility, far better connection between high and low range, and still an appropriate sound due to choosing the cup depth that sounds right.

I'm sure Chris's choice of my very large mouthpiece is for similar reasons. That's what Dan was asking.
And Dan is a pro-level player himself, not a kid.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:26 pm

I'm sorry.

Leif

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:51 pm

Fact remains there is often no one proper choice. There are no "mouthpiece police" who will throw you in the slammer (that's jail, Leif) for not using a 12C as a lead bone. If a large rim works, then a large rim is good. If a large rim is chosen because "bigger is better" that's not a good choice. We do have rules of thumb, but nobody came down from the mountain with these rules engraved in stone.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:26 am

Quote from: savio on Apr 08, 2016, 09:26PMI'm sorry.

Leif

Leif,

Looked to me like you started this thread after Dan made use of the word "QUALITY."

English is hard enough, but words like this make it harder.

If Dan had been using the rather undisciplined definition of "quality" his post WOULD have been disrespectful. This would have suggested that the pro was sacrificing the goodness of his sound for something else.

But Dan did go to the effort of saying he meant the more disciplined word "quality". This meant that the pro was compromising one set of characteristics in favor of another. As the ensuing discussion showed, this is something all good players, especially pros, must do. We can NOT "have it all."

I for one am still glad you started the thread, even if what pushed you to it might not have been a good example. There HAVE been instances of rudeness or dismissiveness to pros. Anyone who can stick in this business deserves respect, and those of us who are not making a living playing can learn quite a bit from these folks.

Thanks for starting the thread.

ttf_patrickosmith · Post by **ttf_patrickosmith** » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:07 am

Quote from: savio on Apr 08, 2016, 06:19PMRespect is maybe a word that is on the way out in our vocubalry....
Leif
I can totally empathize with you. As I get older I begin to understand the perspective of those with experience and knowledge. Sometimes they are dismissed by the less knowledgeable and less experienced people for no good reason. Everybody deserves respect except the disrespectful.

The following Ancient Chinese Proverb pretty much says it all for me.

"He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; avoid him.

He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student; teach him.

He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him.

He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man; follow him."

I choose to listen and follow the wise men. I choose to inquire and ask for advice.

My post is a general observation. It is not in response to any particular specific kerfuffle.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:46 am

The pro's I respect and emulate in my professional career all have one thing in common.

They are willing to share knowledge, with the understanding that they don't know everything, and that everyone is different and needs unique advice (meaning, offer knowledge and advice, and then let the person decide what they want to do).

I stopped coming for awhile because I saw the forum being taken over by high school students (and younger) who would contradict the pro's and even put them down for giving "poor" advice when it really contradicted what little they knew and were unwilling to learn. It happened enough that I didn't come back for over a year (may have been a year and a half), and then I stopped by one day to see if things had improved. They were significantly better, so I've been visiting and posting again as I feel appropriate.

As a working pro, I know I have certain experiences and advice that can help younger players. As a young working pro, I know that older pros will have experiences that are useful for me to take under consideration. As a pro who is coming of age in a significantly changed musical landscape over anyone even 10 years older than me, I know I also need to take advice from older musicians within the context of their experience, as the path to a career that can allow me to continue to pay my bills and support my family looks very different now than it did to musicians 10 years ago. And, even in the case of advice that may not be as applicable to today's gigging environment as it was 10 years ago (or more), there is usually something of value to take away from it.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:39 am

I don't mind answering good questions... and Dan's question was a good one... I had presented him with a mis-match... I like the sound of the 1 1/2G (or even the 2G) but play something vastly different because, as Doug has said, of my physical make-up. How much of a compromise was it ?
We none of us stand still with our playing and I am constantly thinking about how I sound, both in myself and with other players... and if things need change, I change them.
In posting on a forum you must accept certain things.... that everything you say can be challenged by anyone... that insights that have taken years to arrive at may be dismissed at a stroke. Fine with me. I have posted things in the past that will have been read and rejected by many... and I know that some of them will remember those very words years in the future and say to themselves 'Oh, THAT'S what he meant !'.... I know that because I have done it myself many times.... trombone playing time bombs.... It's fun to think I may have planted a few of those.

Chris Stearn

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:47 am

Dan, please can you forgive me?

It was me that didnt treat people well....

How to deal with any people should be the title of this tread and it was me that did wrong.....

I agree Chris, when anyone put up their words on a forum, they also have to take questions from all.
About size I think we all understand its our face structur that make the choice.

Dan..Im very sorry.

Leif

ttf_BMadsen · Post by **ttf_BMadsen** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:07 am

Quote from: blast on Apr 15, 2016, 01:39AMIn posting on a forum you must accept certain things.... that everything you say can be challenged by anyone... that insights that have taken years to arrive at may be dismissed at a stroke. Fine with me. I have posted things in the past that will have been read and rejected by many... and I know that some of them will remember those very words years in the future and say to themselves 'Oh, THAT'S what he meant !'.... I know that because I have done it myself many times.... trombone playing time bombs.... It's fun to think I may have planted a few of those.

Chris Stearn

I understand that. But, (and maybe because of my background, way I was raised, whatever), I was taught not to outright dismiss someone's experiences and advice - even as a high school student. You can say it might not work for you, but that's a different statement than outright dismissing someone (ie. "that's wrong" vs "I don't know if that would work for me."). What I had started experiencing was a lot of negativity, especially presented at pro players or those with decades of experience (even if they are not full-time gigging musicians), and that disgusted me. It was starting to look like the high school trombone forum, instead of the trombone forum, and I don't have much interest in going back to high school.

The reality is, we are all here for fun, advice, fellowship, opportunities to purchase and sell instruments, to hear about interesting performances/videos, etc. If I don't feel it's a fun, welcoming place for that, I won't stick around. Disagreement is fine (and expected), but it needs to be respectful. That time period I mentioned got very negative, and I decided to stop contributing or visiting because it was no longer fun or rewarding.

I always try to present my advice as coming from my experiences as a working pro - you'll notice most of my posts start with "In my experience," or "I've found that this works for me, but your results may vary," or something similar. If I disagree with someone, I try to make it clear that it's my experience that it isn't true, but my experiences may not necessarily be representative of the majority viewpoint on a subject. Sometimes, I have others express surprise at my experiences, other times it's a rousing chorus of agreement. But, the negativity has disappeared - when someone disagrees it comes down to something along the lines of "my experience has been very different than yours, BMadsen." That is a very respectful way to express disagreement without dismissing the fact that my experience is real and valid and worth considering. I've noticed pretty much all the players with years of experience do the same - present their ideas as coming from deep experience within their geographic region, style of music, or any other criterion they feel necessary to mention, but allow for other experiences to be equally valid. Hopefully, this idea of respecting experiences is coming back - it seems to be, from what I'm observing.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:38 am

Hi Leif -

Just forget above it, man! From my point of view, you perceived a disrespectful comment towards a valued member and friend, due to a bit of subtlety Dan used in wording his post and the fact that english isn't your mother tongue, and because of that misunderstanding you over reacted a bit. It's no big deal. Had Dan said what you thought he said, you would have been right to say something. As we say in English, "it's water under the bridge," buddy. Carry on with your fine contributions, please.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:26 pm

Quote from: sfboner on Apr 15, 2016, 10:38AMHi Leif -

Just forget above it, man! From my point of view, you perceived a disrespectful comment towards a valued member and friend, due to a bit of subtlety Dan used in wording his post and the fact that english isn't your mother tongue, and because of that misunderstanding you over reacted a bit. It's no big deal. Had Dan said what you thought he said, you would have been right to say something. As we say in English, "it's water under the bridge," buddy. Carry on with your fine contributions, please.

Thanks so much, I hope Dan forgive me. And I shouldn't excuse my self because of my English all the time.

The words about respect I stand by.

Madsen explain it much better than I ever can do, read his post.

Quote from: BMadsen on Apr 15, 2016, 06:07AMI understand that. But, (and maybe because of my background, way I was raised, whatever), I was taught not to outright dismiss someone's experiences and advice - even as a high school student. You can say it might not work for you, but that's a different statement than outright dismissing someone (ie. "that's wrong" vs "I don't know if that would work for me."). What I had started experiencing was a lot of negativity, especially presented at pro players or those with decades of experience (even if they are not full-time gigging musicians), and that disgusted me. It was starting to look like the high school trombone forum, instead of the trombone forum, and I don't have much interest in going back to high school.

The reality is, we are all here for fun, advice, fellowship, opportunities to purchase and sell instruments, to hear about interesting performances/videos, etc. If I don't feel it's a fun, welcoming place for that, I won't stick around. Disagreement is fine (and expected), but it needs to be respectful. That time period I mentioned got very negative, and I decided to stop contributing or visiting because it was no longer fun or rewarding.

I always try to present my advice as coming from my experiences as a working pro - you'll notice most of my posts start with "In my experience," or "I've found that this works for me, but your results may vary," or something similar. If I disagree with someone, I try to make it clear that it's my experience that it isn't true, but my experiences may not necessarily be representative of the majority viewpoint on a subject. Sometimes, I have others express surprise at my experiences, other times it's a rousing chorus of agreement. But, the negativity has disappeared - when someone disagrees it comes down to something along the lines of "my experience has been very different than yours, BMadsen." That is a very respectful way to express disagreement without dismissing the fact that my experience is real and valid and worth considering. I've noticed pretty much all the players with years of experience do the same - present their ideas as coming from deep experience within their geographic region, style of music, or any other criterion they feel necessary to mention, but allow for other experiences to be equally valid. Hopefully, this idea of respecting experiences is coming back - it seems to be, from what I'm observing.

Leif

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:30 pm

Just remember, Leif. If this Forum was in Norwegian, we'd all have the disadvantage of not understanding you perfectly

Your English is much better than my Norwegian.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:25 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 15, 2016, 03:30PMJust remember, Leif. If this Forum was in Norwegian, we'd all have the disadvantage of not understanding you perfectly

Your English is much better than my Norwegian.

Bruce, you are the one that really have steady rhythm, steady intonation, in dealing with all us strange people. My hat of for you

Leif

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:57 pm

Quote from: savio on Apr 15, 2016, 02:47AMDan, please can you forgive me?

Dan..Im very sorry.

Leif

Forgive you for what?

Misunderstandings happen all the time in the real world. On the internet? Even more so!

No harm done, as far as I'm concerned.

- Dan

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:57 pm

Quote from: savio on Apr 15, 2016, 02:47AMDan, please can you forgive me?

Dan..Im very sorry.

Leif

Forgive you for what?

Misunderstandings happen all the time in the real world. On the internet? Even more so!

No harm done, as far as I'm concerned.

- Dan