Treble vs Tenor

[hyperbolica]

For those of you who switch between treble and tenor clefs, how do you keep them straight in your head? They are only one note apart, and lately I keep crossing over. I usually read a lot of tenor, but recently I've been reading more treble. Just having difficulty flipping recently.

[Matt K]

I mostly did it by playing the same etude but transposed/flipped. So if I'm reading a rochut, I'd read it as tenor clef, alto clef, and treble clef. E.g. if you have a written F and you're hypothetically in the key of F, you'd play a C for tenor clef, an E for alto clef, and a D for treble clef. You'd play the etudes in C, E, and D respectively too. Do that for the first 30 Rochuts and you'll never be able to mistake them again. I also read lots of leadsheets so if I'm reading a treble sheet, I'll transpose it down a major 2nd, then back to C pitch. Or read trumpet lead sheets and then transpose up. Basically anything where you're consciously differentiating the clef seems to help me the most.

[Vegasbound]

Brass band treble?

[hyperbolica]

Brass band treble?

No, just straight non-transposed concert pitch treble, where the top line is F, but in tenor it's E, and alto is G. Reading treble an octave down, I should add. I'll just be reading along and suddenly in the middle of a tune, is that a c or a b? Good thing I don't read much alto, I'd really be confused.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

When you say "they are one pitch apart," it appears that you are playing treble in concert pitch. My recommendation is to learn B-flat transposed treble clef first. Then branch out and learn treble clef concert pitch. After that, I recommend that you learn the basics of reading treble in any transposed pitch.....in F, in E-flat, etc.... Still, I believe it is very important to learn B-flat transposed treble first because it is (almost) the same as tenor. You only need to navigate through the key signature differences.

Whenever I get questioned about transposition, I really appreciate the professors who trained me in my college days. We had a mini music educators band and we switched instruments frequently. I would be holding an alto sax and my professor would say "stand behind the flute players and play their part." I would be holding a French horn and was given a treble clef baritone part. It was an outstanding way to figure out any transposition. Thus, when I teach my advanced students, I give them a treble clef part and say "play it as a horn in F part" or "play it as an alto sax part" and it prepares them for any situation. We always start with the B-flat transposition, but eventually cover an assortment of transpositions.

[hyperbolica]

When you say "they are one pitch apart," it appears that you are playing treble in concert pitch. ...

I must be explaining this badly. Yes, I'm playing concert pitch treble clef an octave down which I can read well enough. I bought a pile of Real Books that only came in treble for C instruments. But my brain is just sometimes switching to tenor clef. No transposition, my brain is just switching clefs in the middle of the line. is a D, but sometimes I see it as a C. It's just a brain-can't-keep-two-things-in-it-at-once kind of problem probably associated with having lived in the 60s and 70s.

[Mamaposaune]

I struggled with reading treble back when I was playing a lot of sackbut; most of the music being in treble clef. Since I had spent years "mastering" tenor and alto clefs, it was frustrating because I kept slipping between treble, tenor and alto, since they were only a step apart. (Yeah, I know I was playing treble in the wrong octave)
I eventually got the hang of it, just through repetition, but noticed something strange - my brain automatically shifted to treble when I had a sackbut in my hand, but if I went to practice sackbut parts on my trombone, I was back to where I started.
These days most of my treble clef reading is playing duets with trumpet students who are working on transposition. I would be embarrassed to tell them I have to pretend that I am holding a sackbut

[Matt K]

I struggled with reading treble back when I was playing a lot of sackbut; most of the music being in treble clef. Since I had spent years "mastering" tenor and alto clefs, it was frustrating because I kept slipping between treble, tenor and alto, since they were only a step apart. (Yeah, I know I was playing treble in the wrong octave)
I eventually got the hang of it, just through repetition, but noticed something strange - my brain automatically shifted to treble when I had a sackbut in my hand, but if I went to practice sackbut parts on my trombone, I was back to where I started.
These days most of my treble clef reading is playing duets with trumpet students who are working on transposition. I would be embarrassed to tell them I have to pretend that I am holding a sackbut

I wouldn't be embarrassed by that in the least. There's a tremendous amount of educational research out there focusing on the subject of performing tasks. The overwhelming consensus is that differentiating tasks is far more permanent. That would mean, fo example, practicing geometric equations next to alegbra equations rather than spending time on one and then time on the other. From your perspective, that would mean practicing sacbut music on trombone and vice versa. Or for clefs, just switching the context you are using them in. That way, you're practicing the switching of tasks, not just the task itself.

[baileyman]

When you say "they are one pitch apart," it appears that you are playing treble in concert pitch. ...

I must be explaining this badly. Yes, I'm playing concert pitch treble clef an octave down which I can read well enough. I bought a pile of Real Books that only came in treble for C instruments. But my brain is just sometimes switching to tenor clef. No transposition, my brain is just switching clefs in the middle of the line. is a D, but sometimes I see it as a C. It's just a brain-can't-keep-two-things-in-it-at-once kind of problem probably associated with having lived in the 60s and 70s.

I have exactly the same trouble. Most heads are see are in treble down an octave. But with so many people having gotten educated, more and more first parts in bands are in tenor, and then my brain flips out.

[hyperbolica]

I have exactly the same trouble. Most heads are see are in treble down an octave. But with so many people having gotten educated, more and more first parts in bands are in tenor, and then my brain flips out.

I struggled with reading treble back when I was playing a lot of sackbut; most of the music being in treble clef. Since I had spent years "mastering" tenor and alto clefs, it was frustrating because I kept slipping between treble, tenor and alto, since they were only a step apart. (Yeah, I know I was playing treble in the wrong octave)
I eventually got the hang of it, just through repetition, but noticed something strange - my brain automatically shifted to treble when I had a sackbut in my hand, but if I went to practice sackbut parts on my trombone, I was back to where I started.
These days most of my treble clef reading is playing duets with trumpet students who are working on transposition. I would be embarrassed to tell them I have to pretend that I am holding a sackbut

Yeah, you guys get it. At least I'm not alone. Maybe I could color treble music yellow or something like that for a constant visual cue.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Try this method......practice speaking the treble clef pitch letter names in rhythm (sharps and flats will obviously get tricky to say on the faster rhythms). If the rhythms get too fast, I have them leave out the words “flat” and “sharp.” I use this for students, young and old, to build pitch fluency. If you cannot speak the pitch names in time, you probably cannot recognize the pitches fast enough to play them in time.


This is a kinder/gentle method of pitch fluency. I hear that Bill Vachiano required his trumpet students to sing entire pieces in solfege before he would allowed them to play it.

[harrisonreed]

The only way for me to do it is to think of everything as part of the grand staff, based around middle C, or whatever note the clef is based on. Special exception for brass band treble, which is weird tenor clef. Most trombone music is written in tenor clef for me, so that is my easiest clef.

Sight reading, forget about it. But if I'm working on a piece, it's easy to get my mind into that clef by having a few road signs, like the F5 or E4 you mentioned above, or middle C and F in alto.

Now if you're playing treble clef, but transposing down an octave (you say they are only one note/step apart, but that isn't really true) ... That is way too confusing for me. I have trouble transposing down or up an octave even in bass or tenor clef, unless the part says 8vb and I practiced it once it twice or it's a melody I know.

I have never been a good reader. It takes me a quick look, and maybe hitting some tough looking spots before I'm ready to go on a chart, regardless of the clef. Some guys can sit down and read anything, and that makes me jealous. But I have never had a paid gig where I'm sitting down and have never seen the music before. I get into friendly arguments at work about it, because I get pretty peeved when we do "sight reading, new material rehearsals". In my mind, it's wasting everyone's time because we could actually be rehearsing the music from the get go instead of having hiccups here and there because everyone is sight reading -- "give me the music and it'll be perfect". The other camp is of the opinion that going through the music before a rehearsal is equally a waste of time, and everyone should just be able to sit down and read anything. Some of these charts, where they are really playing with the pulse and time, and crazy syncopated rhythms, come on man, don't make me sight read that. I can't imagine if it was suddenly in treble clef on top of that.

[lupusargentus]

You're screwed.
But seriously, harrisonreed's grand staff solution is a good one. I'm dyslexic and that's about the only way I can sometimes get through working on the funny clef stuff.
If I haven't worked in the clef for a while or god forbid sight reading, forget it.

[hyperbolica]

The grand staff is how I learn clefs, but once I learned treble enough I think I'm using other notes as reference that are up on the staff like F, and that's what's throwing me, I think.

When I switch to treble without the octave shift, then Im back to Grand staff and using middle C as reference. Maybe it's the octave shift that's getting me. Otherwise it would be easy to read but tiring to play.

[Doubler]

Grand Staff perspective works for me, too. Since I added trombone to my many years of trumpet playing, preceded by a short time playing French horn, I was familiar with Treble clef. Learning to read Bass clef was challenging until I figured out that they're just notes on a staff. It got much easier after that. I take this approach to Tenor and Alto clef, and it works for me. I even can play pedal tones on trumpet without counting ledger lines.

As for transposing, it's more a bit of "Just do it and use your ears." after calculating the correct interval. Habit and a rudimentary knowledge of scales gets me through the accidentals.

Do I do any of this with ease? No, not always, but I'm working on it.

[harrisonreed]

The grand staff is how I learn clefs, but once I learned treble enough I think I'm using other notes as reference that are up on the staff like F, and that's what's throwing me, I think.

When I switch to treble without the octave shift, then Im back to Grand staff and using middle C as reference. Maybe it's the octave shift that's getting me. Otherwise it would be easy to read but tiring to play.

I think it's the octave switch. That's what gets me. It is a transposition, and if you don't practice it it's not easy to do on the fly.

[LeTromboniste]

Yes! Generally, thinking everything as part of one big system rather than each clef as a single independent system is the way to go IMO.

Treble clef down the octave doesn't really fit nicely in that approach though. I don't really see it as a transposition. It's a very standard clef for voice in modern editions for instance, and it's not music written in the soprano range transposed down an octave, it's proper tenor parts. I think that particular clef is the one that I did learn just as its own thing rather than seeing it as part of the bigger picture and using octave transposition.

[PaulTdot]

But I have never had a paid gig where I'm sitting down and have never seen the music before.

This is cool to hear. How different our worlds can be!

When I think of the work I've done over the last decade, about 90-95% is sight-reading (mostly) or (less often) some variety of "make it up on the spot". Being able to actually look at the music before a gig... what a luxury! Whether fortunately or unfortunately, as a strong but newer player on the scene, I suspect I've now developed a reputation as 'the guy you can call last minute who'll nail it anyway', which is a double-edged sword. I've received quite a few calls 2-3 hours before a gig, for instance, with high-level bands (e.g. coming in to sight-read lead parts with the best band in the city, and my former teachers playing 2nd and 3rd). No time to even get to the venue early to look at the music in a situation like that.

And it's often in the wrong key, a weird transposition, or has mistakes.

I remember an absolute nightmare of a high-profile show where I was subbing in. There were supposed to be two rehearsals, and I wasn't available for the second. During the first, they had hired a new arranger to rewrite the book, and he had done a terrible job, so they fired him. As a result, we didn't play any of the music we rehearsed on the gig - they went back to their original book, and rehearsed without me.

Not only had I never seen the music, but it was full of errors (the rest of the band was playing from memory, and had changed a lot of the parts, but never marked it). I figured I'd survive as best I could... but, then, on top of that, when I went on stage, there was a saxophone player in front of me who was using a clip-on microphone, so he kept walking in front of me. I had to constantly keep an eye on him, since whenever he walked in front, if I went to fifth position or further out, I'd hit him (so I'd have to find alternate positions or some other 'cheat'). Wasn't exactly helpful!

On top of that, though, once the curtain went up and the show started, it turned out there was a lot of "club lighting" - strobe lights, moments of complete darkness, and spotlights sweeping across the stage. I couldn't actually see the music a good third of the time.

Finally, the rest of the horn section was yelling at me to try to match their (well-rehearsed) choreography. It was madness!

Apparently I survived, somehow - they were thrilled, and no one noticed there was a sub in the band.

No one had told me working as a professional musician was going to be like that...

[BGuttman]

Most of the MPTF gigs I used to do were sight-reading. I also belonged to two "summer in the park" bands that also were sight reading. After a while I got used to it. Plus, a lot of the arrangements were pretty similar from gig to gig.

I think the worst use of treble clef writing I ever saw was the 1st trombone part in the Brahms Academic Festival Overture. There are actually two parts, one in alto clef and one in bass clef. The part has a high A and a high C#. Both of these notes were written in (non-transposing) treble clef. I felt for any of the (mostly) younger players who would be playing the bass clef part because they didn't know Alto and suddenly there's this. And playing a C and then an Eb didn't fit at all.

[Matt K]

Hah, I actually had one situation where the music wasn't finished being arranged until 5 minutes before the recording session! Fortunately, it was quite easy. But I agree, I much, much, much prefer to get it ahead of time because I'll run through it several times if I have the bandwidth for it.