My visit with Roy Lawler

ttf_RJMason · Post by **ttf_RJMason** » Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:45 pm

I'm planning on ordering a third .22 7 3/4 red brass flare that everyone keeps mentioning. I may also buy a .508 nickel silver slide.

Lastly, I bought the .525 Big Boy from DJ months ago and will be sending it to Roy soon. He's going to take the existing components (slide tubes and bell flare are killer!) and modernize it with his newer design concepts. I'd like to put a valve on it, but it remains to be seen if that is what will end up happening. I think I will keep the bell solid and not convert it, but that also is up in the air...

Stay tuned.

ttf_Rathrombones · Post by **ttf_Rathrombones** » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:31 pm

Hmmm I think I'll be ordering one of these in the next month or two, can anyone who's tried these tell me which combo I might/should choose if I want something that's close to an LA Williams 6 sound and able to "cut"/project as easily, but tonally just a bit darker. Thanks in advance...

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:05 am

You're trying to get something DARKER than a 6?

I haven't played the Lawler yet but I would imagine that the .508 would be requirement #1. Also the heaviest bell options...

Others may correct me...

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:20 am

Quote from: Rathrombones on Jun 29, 2016, 11:31PMHmmm I think I'll be ordering one of these in the next month or two, can anyone who's tried these tell me which combo I might/should choose if I want something that's close to an LA Williams 6 sound and able to "cut"/project as easily, but tonally just a bit darker. Thanks in advance...
Scroll back and read what I posted following my visit. I based my choices on my Williams 6.

ttf_Rathrombones · Post by **ttf_Rathrombones** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:38 am

Quote from: DaveAshley on Jun 30, 2016, 07:20AMScroll back and read what I posted following my visit. I based my choices on my Williams 6.

Yea I saw that

. I was just checking for the ability to project yet maintain a dark sound until pushed

... I probably can't try these out so I may go with a very similar setup. I know you talked about nickel/brass crook slide vs nickel, but how did the nickel compare to the all brass slide? Thanks!

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:34 pm

All I really noticed is that slurs were a bit easier with the nickel crook but that slide vibrato was more pronounced with the brass crook.

Not you dissuade you from going Lawler, but I like the Conn Connstellation for what you seem to be looking for. I've been a Williams player for 10 years, but I like the 48H a lot (I have two!). They're a bit darker, but light up and cut when pushed. Super solid build too, especially the earliest ones.

ttf_Rathrombones · Post by **ttf_Rathrombones** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:39 pm

Quote from: DaveAshley on Jun 30, 2016, 12:34PMAll I really noticed is that slurs were a bit easier with the nickel crook but that slide vibrato was more pronounced with the brass crook.

Not you dissuade you from going Lawler, but I like the Conn Connstellation for what you seem to be looking for. I've been a Williams player for 10 years, but I like the 48H a lot (I have two!). They're a bit darker, but light up and cut when pushed. Super solid build too, especially the earliest ones.

Yea I actually really like the older ones (I believe they used a 10h coprion bell on those)... Definitely would be worth looking into, thanks!

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:25 pm

Quote from: Rathrombones on Jun 30, 2016, 02:39PMYea I actually really like the older ones (I believe they used a 10h coprion bell on those)... Definitely would be worth looking into, thanks!

Actually the conn loyalist speculates that they were copper - covered brass bells

ttf_Rathrombones · Post by **ttf_Rathrombones** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:55 pm

Quote from: TromboneMonkey on Jun 30, 2016, 03:25PMActually the conn loyalist speculates that they were copper - covered brass bells

Hmmm... interesting

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:14 am

Quote from: Rathrombones on Jun 29, 2016, 11:31PMHmmm I think I'll be ordering one of these in the next month or two, can anyone who's tried these tell me which combo I might/should choose if I want something that's close to an LA Williams 6 sound and able to "cut"/project as easily, but tonally just a bit darker. Thanks in advance...

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LB-2 red brass 85/15 stem (.022), 85/15 flare (.022), 85/15 tuning slide bow with yellow brass tuning slide inners, yellow brass neck pipe, yellow brass hand slide w/nickel bow (.500). That's where I'd start.

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ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:05 am

Quote from: TromboneMonkey on Jun 30, 2016, 03:25PMActually the conn loyalist speculates that they were copper - covered brass bells

This makes sense because nickel plates well to copper. Woodwind keys are often made from nickel-silver. Then plated with copper followed by nickel (or just silver-plated directly).

ttf_Sid · Post by **ttf_Sid** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:29 pm

The horn I ordered from Roy Lawler arrived Thursday. The combination I purchased was a .020 yellow brass stem with yellow brass goose neck, .022 7 3/4 red brass, .025 8 inch bronze flare and .500 nickel slide with brass crook. After spending the last few days with it, I can confirm that the setup with the .022 7 3/4 red brass is everything I remembered from my visit to Roy's shop in May. The combo with the .025 8 inch bronze flare is broader and more diffuse in sound. That setup I am looking forward to using in big band gigs, brass quintet and church gigs. I've settled on a 405 venturi lead pipe for now but am expecting a few nickel two-piece lead pipes from Roy here soon to try. Very excited to take the horn to a few upcoming rehearsals here in the next week or two plus giving some friends time to play the horn as well.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:46 am

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all this is really great !!!!!! the first time i heard herb bruce playing
i heard something wonderful -----------
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thank you for all the very very specific trials comparisons tests and supporting roy lawler
==============
////about copperion bell 10h //48h flare no confirmation as yet ---i thought about file away a place close to the tuning slide ferrule
just hit a ''parts-fixer'' on bay and have a bell fitted w 3b receiver --shipped the best connie i ever saw heard or imagined to wolfie in switzerland
a ''flash'' copper coating is typical as it separates and makes adhesion of following metal plating secure
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oh i sent some pics to wes funderburk's student grady //in one pic is the gold played HERB BRUCE // TWIN BORE in satin
so the kid gets all excited !!!!!!!! thats what i want !!!!!
yeah and he will be waiting for acmetrombones//aaron chandler to finish one //////a 3b //////////
now if this isnt to quick SID and PINEAPPLE can help --

ttf_Sid · Post by **ttf_Sid** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:23 am

Quoteyeah and he will be waiting for acmetrombones//aaron chandler to finish one //////a 3b ////////// now if this isnt to quick SID and PINEAPPLE can help --
Tell him to estimate his waiting time between one and eleven months. Or better yet, tell him to save up the money to buy one of Roy's horns. Between the saving of money and waiting for the horn, he'll probably get a horn faster from Roy.

ttf_SilverSonic · Post by **ttf_SilverSonic** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:33 am

Hello,
do the flares come with a ring attached? Are they the Shires ring (are they shires compatible).
Thanks

ttf_Sid · Post by **ttf_Sid** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:02 am

Quote from: SilverSonic on Aug 12, 2016, 11:33AMHello,
do the flares come with a ring attached? Are they the Shires ring (are they shires compatible).
Thanks

The ring is on the bell stem. As for if the threads are compatible with Shires threads, I do not know that answer but would assume they are not.

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:36 am

I received my Lawler two days ago.

I'm very happy with the components I chose. (to recap: Heavy .025 all-yellow bell section, .025 bronze 8 in flare, .022 gold 7 3/4 flare, all nickel .500 slide)

The horn is definitely heavy to hold, but is still comfortable. It's super-flexible, and the sound is ridiculous! Or maybe I should say "sounds" - The two flares change the sound so much that it's like having two different trombones. I think I'll use the gold flare more often (though I picked the bronze first). The slide is perfect - Not ultra light, but just right.

I'll be able to say more about it once I get to use it in ensemble situations. Suffice to say, I'm very satisfied!

The slim case is fantastic, but strangely enough, there's no place to put a mouthpiece! (what?!) I've already taken an X-Acto knife and cut a space into the foam, so that problem will be solved once I glue/sew some fabric into the space.

If you're on Facebook, I've posted a public photo album:
https://www.facebook.com/daveashley/media_set?set=a.10154330407146357.1073741870.511711356

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:30 am

I'm awaiting the arrival of my Lawler as well!

I based my order on a conversation with Roy earlier this summer, and he made his recommendations based on some of my initial preferences and the kinds of playing I do. I'm not able to make the trip down to his shop, but everything I've read here and on his website seems spot on to what I am looking for!

I ordered a .025 red brass (85/15) stem with nickel neck pipe, 8" .022 yellow brass bell, 7.75" .022 red brass bell, all nickel .500 slide with the slim case. I am also trying his .405 and .410 leadpipes. I will likely order a bronze bell later on.

I will keep an eye on this thread and report in once I receive it - I'm hoping for the end of the month - we'll see!

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:58 pm

Quote from: DaveAshley on Sep 17, 2016, 07:36AM

It's super-flexible, and the sound is ridiculous!

Could you elucidate this statement a bit more? What's the sound like? Does it slot firmly and pop or is it more liquidy smooth?

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:17 am

Quote from: TromboneMonkey on Sep 18, 2016, 05:58PMCould you elucidate this statement a bit more? What's the sound like? Does it slot firmly and pop or is it more liquidy smooth?

Well, the flares really define the sound. I don't know if I can state precisely what the "sound is like" because everyone has their sound, but I can compare it to other horns I own. I tried to get a combo that came closest to sounding like my Williams 6, and I think I achieved that pretty well with the bronze flare. When I switch to the .022 gold/red flare, it's closer to my 6H. A little more highs, more lyrical sound when playing softer. I can say, as the website claims, that the Lawler has a more "vintage" sound than other new horns I've tried out lately. I guess that means a great breadth of overtones - very open sounding.

The Lawler definitely has more 'pop' to the partials than my Williams, and probably even my .500 Conns (48H and 6H). Going back and forth, I've found that the partials are more predictable/reliable/even than I get with the Conns. Williams has this quality, but the slurs are much smoother and covered. I've long wished for more pop and solid attack from the Williams. My 6 is pretty lightweight, and it can get a bit wild. It's easy to split loud attacks, so I feel I always have to be in excellent shape and be very disciplined to play it cleanly. I don't think I'll have that problem with the Lawler.

Like I said before, I'll have to play it in ensemble situations and report back. I just got off my cruise gig and have some dental work (today! ugh...), so it may be a while before I can give it a full evaluation.

ttf_Sid · Post by **ttf_Sid** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:01 pm

Since having my horn for about six weeks now, I thought I would put down a few notes on the three flares I have played with my setup (.020 yellow stem, gooseneck, tuning slide; .500 nickel slide with yellow brass crook; .405 brass lead pipe)

7 3/4 .022 red brass flare with thinner rim - This was my initial testing flare, the one I primarily use for playing and my personal favorite of those tried. A nice mix of direct sound with some overtones in the middle range. Has been a favorite of everyone that has played it so far. Low range really honks, as one friend told me at a rehearsal. Still able to cut in the upper register when needed. Have used it in big band, combo with three horns, backing up vocals in rock groups and it has fared admirably.

8 inch .022 yellow brass flare with thinner rim - Broader but brighter sound than red flare above. Less overtones. DJ called this splashy when he played on it and really put the pedal down. Another friend of mine tried this combo and said it reminded him of his all yellow brass Edwards.

8 inch .025 bronze flare - Like Dave mentioned, this flare feels like the whole horn changed. Almost legit like. Very dense and rich sound quality. Fantastic low range with this flare. Loved using this on some chorale-like backgrounds with a vocal group but I was working more in the upper range with this as opposed to other flares. Obviously doesn't cut nearly as much as the ones above. If I was going to play a small bore in church, brass quintet, or even a concert band setting, this is what I would use. I don't think I'd want to use this playing lead in a strong/loud big band but for section work, absolutely.

The only other thing I would say for those ordering the slim hard case is to get some extra foam or some sort of padding to put around the flares, as I have already gotten a ding or two in the flare sitting closest to the bell section.

ttf_Koz · Post by **ttf_Koz** » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:48 pm

Has anyone tried the .508 bore slide?

ttf_Sid · Post by **ttf_Sid** » Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:39 pm

Quote from: Koz on Oct 20, 2016, 08:48PMHas anyone tried the .508 bore slide?

I tried one briefly when I visited Roy in May. My full time horn from 2010 to August of this year was a 3B Silversonic, so I thought that I would gravitate right toward his .508 but that was not the case. I played with much less effort and more versatility on his .500 than the .508. I don't remember finding anything wrong with it in general, other than I felt more at home on the .500 slide.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:50 am

I ordered a horn through Roy. What a great guy! I just want to mirror what everyone else has said about his personal character and his business in general. The process so far has been wonderful. I am getting:
LB1-2 .022 thick yellow brass stem with a nickel neckpipe.
8 .022 yellow brass RBS (round bead soldered) bell
7 3/4" .022 red brass bell
LS5-N .500 bore nickel slide with a brass end bow
no lacquer
#10??? Leadpipe (whatever his middle one is).

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:35 am

Quote from: 3 trombones on Oct 26, 2016, 07:50AMI ordered a horn through Roy. What a great guy! I just want to mirror what everyone else has said about his personal character and his business in general. The process so far has been wonderful. I am getting:
LB1-2 .022 thick yellow brass stem with a nickel neckpipe.
8 .022 yellow brass RBS (round bead soldered) bell
7 3/4" .022 red brass bell
LS5-N .500 bore nickel slide with a brass end bow
no lacquer
#10??? Leadpipe (whatever his middle one is).

Congratulations. You might want to order a #15 leadpipe too.

ttf_Bach16G · Post by **ttf_Bach16G** » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:04 am

As you can see from my post count and join date - I have been following the forum for a long time without posting much. I really appreciate the depth of knowledge and information found here about pretty much any question I have ever had regarding any aspect of trombone playing. I am an enthusiastic amateur player - math teacher by day - active in various big bands, brass quintet, and other groups as time allows. I felt the need to post regarding my experience with my Lawler trombone so far. I ordered in early August, and he delivered as scheduled at the end of September. I've tweaked my set-up over the past month with different leadpipes and flares and I am very pleased with my final instrument:

.025 red brass stem with nickel neckpipe
all nickel .500 slide
.410 one piece leadpipe
.022 8" yellow flare
.022 7.75" red brass flare
.025 8" bronze flare.

I wasn't able to make a trip to see Roy, and he has been very gracious in allowing me to try various options - swapping out flares and leadpipes as needed. His recommendations before ordering were great and I am very happy with the result after trying a number of different flares and leadpipes.

The build quality is great - and I come to appreciate it immensely as I play more in different settings and groups. The intonation is spot on and although I am still adjusting from my Bach 16, I have found the intonation between partials very accurate. Also - the upper register feels very fluid and I don't feel the "wall" I always felt on my Bach 16 (dual) when moving above high G. It took me a while to "dial in" my preferences for a leadpipe, and after initially preferring the .405 pipe I feel great on the .410 I am playing now - much better consistency and evenness for me. I am playing on a Giddings Watters mouthpiece that really works well for me with this horn.

The bell flares are a revelation to me - I'm amazed at the variety of sound possible with the 3 flares I am using. The yellow flare cuts really well in big band, but can be warmed up easily when needed. I'm really into the bronze flare as well - it is unlike anything I have ever played - very interesting and engaging sound for me whether played loud or soft. The red flare is also very good - bridges the differences between the yellow and bronze.

Just thought I would share my experiences - this is the most enthusiastic I have been about an instrument in quite some time!

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:51 am

It's great to read about everybody's experience. I have loved every minute with my Lawler. I've posted about my initial experience, but not much since September.

I've found that the Kanstul H6 leadpipe I brought to the shop has been the best fit *for me* so far. I think I'll get some use out of the #10 I got from Roy as well, but I find the Kanstul to be a bit "snappier" and simply better suited to the way I play. I thought I'd probably like my Shires nickel #2 in it since that's my preferred pipe on my Williams 6. I absolutely do NOT like it on the Lawler. I can't even put my finger on why. It just doesn't work.

I've also picked up a 8 inch yellow .022, and I find it's more "me" than the others (I guess "me" being like the Williams 6 I've played for 11 years). Roy is also building me a 7.5 inch yellow .022 with unsoldered, rounded rim. I just figured it'd be nice to have something totally different. I'll soon have four flares! In my estimation, there are over 100 bell flare possibilities between materials, thicknesses, rims and sizes. I hope these four will do!

Oh - and one more thing. I've slapped an Edwards counterweight on it. I find it centers up things a little. Yes, it adds even more weight to an already-heavy bell section, but I can handle it, and it doesn't throw the bell/slide balance off enough to bother me.

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:00 am

Just got my horn a couple weeks ago and wow, very impressed with just about everything... I don't intend to talk very much about the horn in this post but to simply ask for some advise. The #10 leadpipe works super well for me while using 7 1/2 red brass bell. Wow the colors and character the sound has is outstanding. I ended up going with that bell and the yellow brass 8' to match my yellow stem, but found the yellow bell gave a different more commercial sound then what I'm looking for right now. So, soon I will be getting an 8' bronze bell in exchange. But will plan on getting the yellow in the future. What I'm looking for is a good match in terms of leadpipes to give me a large responsive sound almost orchestral sound but on a 500. Bore Lawler with 8inch bronze bell. Any suggestions? Thanks!

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:55 pm

Quote from: nicmv on Dec 15, 2016, 10:00AMJust got my horn a couple weeks ago and wow, very impressed with just about everything... I don't intend to talk very much about the horn in this post but to simply ask for some advise. The #10 leadpipe works super well for me while using 7 1/2 red brass bell. Wow the colors and character the sound has is outstanding. I ended up going with that bell and the yellow brass 8' to match my yellow stem, but found the yellow bell gave a different more commercial sound then what I'm looking for right now. So, soon I will be getting an 8' bronze bell in exchange. But will plan on getting the yellow in the future. What I'm looking for is a good match in terms of leadpipes to give me a large responsive sound almost orchestral sound but on a 500. Bore Lawler with 8inch bronze bell. Any suggestions? Thanks!

Buy a Kanstul W6 press-fit leadpipe direct from Kanstul. That pipe works very well in my Lawler and should achieve what you are going for.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:12 am

Anyone want to share some pictures. I am still patiently waiting for mine to arrive in January. I need some Picts.to help me daydream.

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:19 pm

Here's my Facebook album:
https://www.facebook.com/daveashley/media_set?set=a.10154330407146357.1073741870.511711356&type=3

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:56 am

Any of these horns in DC/Baltimore?

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:18 pm

Mine's in New Zealand right now. Sorry!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:32 pm

Received my horn today. Played it for about 5 minutes so very little to report on how it plays. I REALLY like the red brass bell. In the limited time playing I found the 8" yellow is VERY SHOUTY

. If you want to cut, this is it. I think I will add a counterweight because the balance is a bit front heavy for me yet it is comfortable in my hands. Overall I am pleased, can't wait to play it in a group setting on Sunday. Specs. on the horn are listed in my reply above. Link includes a ton of pictures for those interested.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4xhcjza19td3kaq/AADZq_IgfaGjVk1xDvfmp0PTa?dl=0

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:09 pm

Quote from: 3 trombones on Feb 01, 2017, 01:32PMReceived my horn today. Played it for about 5 minutes so very little to report on how it plays. I REALLY like the red brass bell. In the limited time playing I found the 8" yellow is VERY SHOUTY

. If you want to cut, this is it. I think I will add a counterweight because the balance is a bit front heavy for me yet it is comfortable in my hands. Overall I am pleased, can't wait to play it in a group setting on Sunday. Specs. on the horn are listed in my reply above. Link includes a ton of pictures for those interested.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4xhcjza19td3kaq/AADZq_IgfaGjVk1xDvfmp0PTa?dl=0

======

Very nice. Counterweight? Really? Give it time and I bet you'll decide against that idea.

======

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:05 am

I assume he'll make one without the brush finish. I have to admit I've never been the biggest fan thereof.

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:58 am

Quote from: TromboneMonkey on Feb 02, 2017, 06:05AMI assume he'll make one without the brush finish. I have to admit I've never been the biggest fan thereof.

Yes, he'll finish it however you want it finished.

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:26 am

what would you guys compare the Lawler "feel" to? I haven't played that many small bore horns just a couple Holtons, couple Conn's, a Williams 8 and a Bach 6. It doesn't feel that close to any of the old Conn 500 bores I've played. The core to it reminds me of the Williams but with a Holton Finish (kind of?). I have a Yellow 5 stem with a 7 3/4 red brass flare, all nickel slide... The Lawler feels different though from any horn I've ever played.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:34 am

Pardon my asking, but where did you find a Lawlor? Your profile says you are a student.

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:26 am

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 18, 2017, 08:26AM

what would you guys compare the Lawler "feel" to? I haven't played that many small bore horns just a couple Holtons, couple Conn's, a Williams 8 and a Bach 6. It doesn't feel that close to any of the old Conn 500 bores I've played. The core to it reminds me of the Williams but with a Holton Finish (kind of?). I have a Yellow 5 stem with a 7 3/4 red brass flare, all nickel slide... The Lawler feels different though from any horn I've ever played.
-----

Well of course it feels different than other small bores. It was built by Roy Lawler. Lawler trombones, like any other brand, have their own signature.

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ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:55 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Feb 18, 2017, 08:34AMPardon my asking, but where did you find a Lawlor? Your profile says you are a student.

Just finished Junior high. I think if Mr. Lawler made horns for the rest of my 9th grade section mates we'd probably sound a heck of a lot better don't you think?

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:25 pm

The horn is based on a Martin Committee, but I don't think you can compare it to any one brand or model. Even a change of bell flare can change the way it plays and sounds.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:15 pm

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 18, 2017, 11:55AMJust finished Junior high. I think if Mr. Lawler made horns for the rest of my 9th grade section mates we'd probably sound a heck of a lot better don't you think?

That really depends. If your section mates sound like a herd of wounded moose (mooses?) on what they play now they will sound like that on a cohort of Lawlers. The players who are running against the limits of their student trombones (not likely in Junior High) they might sound better.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:53 pm

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 18, 2017, 11:55AMJust finished Junior high. I think if Mr. Lawler made horns for the rest of my 9th grade section mates we'd probably sound a heck of a lot better don't you think?
I have to agree with Bruce. At the junior high level this is unlikely.

Some of the really 'nice' pro trombones are actually detrimental to the inexperienced player because their responsiveness creates instability for the inexperienced embouchure. To draw from an area I am intimately experienced with, putting a beginning rider on an all-out race bike is a serious mistake. They are just not capable of the control necessary to manage such a machine. The same can be said for a top echelon trombone and a player that has trouble hitting a 5th harmonic note.

The best trombones reward accuracy and control. Beginners might find them a little much to handle and certainly will not be able to take advantage of their refinements.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:55 pm

BTW moose is both singular and plural. Like sheep.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:48 am

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but I'm thinking about getting a Lawler and was wondering if any of you who have been to see Roy might be able to help me. I don't have any opportunities for a trip to the US for quite a while, so I can't try bits out, unfortunately. Obviously, I'd need to get in touch with Roy to hear his advice, but thought some of you might have some ideas about what might work for me.

I have a late '40s Martin Committee that can be a lot of fun to play, but I'd like something that's a little bigger and more free blowing. I also find it difficult to keep the brightness in check when playing loud. I borrowed a friend's Martin Urbie model for a gig recently and everything felt much more secure than it would have done on my Committee. I really liked its colourfulness at soft dynamics, but I'm told (and felt) that the sound spread more than it projected when I pushed it to keep up with the band. There were a couple of moments where I pushed it past my limits and the brightness became unpleasant, though the threshold was a little higher than on my Committee. I say "my limits" because I'm sure a better player than I could play louder without being so unmusical, but the threshold is definitely higher, again, on both the 2B Silversonic and .500 Kuhnl and Hoyer Bart van Lier model I've spent some time playing in the past. As far as feel goes, the Urbie was really great, though. I also quite like the way the Bart van Lier horns feel, but my tone was a little less colourful/interesting than I'd like.

Do you think it would be possible for Roy to make a horn with a similar responsiveness and colourfulness at soft dynamics to a Martin Urbie without it backing and breaking up so soon in the dynamic range? Going off my experiences with a screwbell Holton TR-281 compared to an otherwise identical 181, I would guess that a screwbell Lawler would lend itself to projecting and "keeping together" better at loud dynamics without losing speed of response. Of course, that's without going into all the permutations of a Lawler or having any real understanding of the various options' effects...

Thanks in advance!

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:34 am

Quote from: bicknarnard on Feb 20, 2017, 03:48AMSorry to hijack the thread a bit, but I'm thinking about getting a Lawler and was wondering if any of you who have been to see Roy might be able to help me. I don't have any opportunities for a trip to the US for quite a while, so I can't try bits out, unfortunately. Obviously, I'd need to get in touch with Roy to hear his advice, but thought some of you might have some ideas about what might work for me.

I have a late '40s Martin Committee that can be a lot of fun to play, but I'd like something that's a little bigger and more free blowing. I also find it difficult to keep the brightness in check when playing loud. I borrowed a friend's Martin Urbie model for a gig recently and everything felt much more secure than it would have done on my Committee. I really liked its colourfulness at soft dynamics, but I'm told (and felt) that the sound spread more than it projected when I pushed it to keep up with the band. There were a couple of moments where I pushed it past my limits and the brightness became unpleasant, though the threshold was a little higher than on my Committee. I say "my limits" because I'm sure a better player than I could play louder without being so unmusical, but the threshold is definitely higher, again, on both the 2B Silversonic and .500 Kuhnl and Hoyer Bart van Lier model I've spent some time playing in the past. As far as feel goes, the Urbie was really great, though. I also quite like the way the Bart van Lier horns feel, but my tone was a little less colourful/interesting than I'd like.

Do you think it would be possible for Roy to make a horn with a similar responsiveness and colourfulness at soft dynamics to a Martin Urbie without it backing and breaking up so soon in the dynamic range? Going off my experiences with a screwbell Holton TR-281 compared to an otherwise identical 181, I would guess that a screwbell Lawler would lend itself to projecting and "keeping together" better at loud dynamics without losing speed of response. Of course, that's without going into all the permutations of a Lawler or having any real understanding of the various options' effects...

Thanks in advance!
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A 40's Committee is .484 bore and a new Lawler is either .500 or .508, your choice. Most seem to prefer the .500, myself included. Everything you are looking for can be had in a new Lawler and I'd certainly start with a correspondence with Roy. He is very helpful and knows his stuff. My Lawler is more colorful than any Urbie I've ever played, so yeah, he can build you what you're looking for. The response of a Lawler is very immediate, and the pitch of his horns is the best I've ever encountered. Everything lines up beautifully! They're special, to be sure.
And they're very efficient horns too. You can play at 3/4 throttle and get all you'd ever need or want from a trombone. Brilliant design!

I believe you get the most color from the red brass that he offers, either .022 or .025. My stem, flare, and tuning slide are all red brass and my slide is all nickel. Send him an email if you haven't already done so.

I speak with Roy about once a month and he has some exciting stuff in the pipeline, primarily based on my suggestions and input. Keep us posted.

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ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:58 am

Nothing like these horns, think core. Talk with him about the stem, that's the base of all the brilliant characteristics your going to find. The flare is just a cherry on top. But a necessary cherry of coarse.

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:44 am

Quote from: DaCapo on Feb 20, 2017, 06:58AMNothing like these horns, think core. Talk with him about the stem, that's the base of all the brilliant characteristics your going to find. The flare is just a cherry on top. But a necessary cherry of coarse.

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The flare is more than a cherry on top. The horn is a system. A system that has many variables in the choices that are available from Roy. Some combinations work better than others for me, or you, or........Some combinations probably won't work well for most anyone, and some combinations will work well for most everyone.

If Roy had to choose just one combination of parts/materials for just one standard horn, if you will, he probably has in his mind what that would be.

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ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:50 am

Have you ever played it Sackbut style?